Talk:Alhambra Decree

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A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on March 31, 2013, March 31, 2015, and March 31, 2017.

Section sizes

Section size for Alhambra Decree (11 sections)
Section name	Byte count	Section total
(Top)	5,950	5,950
Background	6,223	12,207
European context	2,990	2,990
Ferdinand and Isabella	2,994	2,994
Decree	2,190	14,800
Dispersal	4,382	4,382
Conversions	8,228	8,228
Modern Spanish policy	3,905	3,905
See also	407	407
References	33	33
External links	1,181	1,181
Total	38,483	38,483

Excuses

Seems like the first paragraph digresses greatly from the purpose of the article. I would like to see most of it removed and stick to the purpose of the page which is to describe the Alhambra Decree, not the revocation of it, and the insignificant attempts of the responsible parties to apologize. Almost seems like an advertisement for Catholicism. Definitely written by a Catholic apologist at least. I am asking for a neutral party to consider cleaning it up a bit. Or moving some of it to the bottom of the article because being at the top seems to steer the reader in a certain unnatural direction. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.114.16.212 (talk) 23:41, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly disagree. From your opinion, it seems that your ideal article would be an inflammatory tirade against Catholicism. The truth is that the article as it is makes absolutely no reference to the fact that the "special status" the Jews enjoyed with their Muslim overlords was thanks to their collaboration financing raids against Spain and providing the Muslims with information. So yes, the article is one-sided, but not for the reasons you brought up. Either leave it as it is or let's get to work completing ALL the missing info, not just the one that you like and enjoy reading. Thank you. 181.21.104.114 (talk) 03:39, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wikisource

Should the text of the Alhambra decree be moved to Wikisource? -PoptartKing

This is not the text of the Alhambra decree, it is a translation. I dunno if that's acceptable on Wikisource...admittedly tho, I don't know basically anything about Wikisource. Tomer ^TALK 03:30, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

If it makes any difference, I went through last night and added wikilinks to all the relevant words in the text of translation of the Decree, whereupon IE6 (thank you Bill Gates) crashed b4 my <save> transaction was completed. :-( Tomer ^TALK 03:32, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

Who translated it? Or was it an automated translation? Automated translations are probably not sufficiently accurate for a work of encyclopædic scope such as this. 38.100.34.2 22:33, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thats normal. the translation of a text is not the text but a translation :-!. Important to know is that this text is not very popular in Spain and Latinamerica where the Inquisition "completed" the expulsion of Iberia (Portugal 5 years later) killing the rest identity of jewish and conversos in Europe and specially in the "New Kingdom of Granada". Anyhow there are more than facts which witnessed the jewish heritage in Latinamerica. Nowadays genetics are proving this fact that America was discovered, colonized and populated partially thru those expulsed and sons of jewish people.

Muslims?

I've at times found the Alhambra Decree cited in various works as not only an expulsion of Jews but also Muslims. Was there a separate decree for Muslims, or should this information also be included in this article? ---Trippz (talk) 07:30, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Read the text. It says nothing at all about Moslems. -- Zsero (talk) 07:51, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I saw that. However, my question was because some sources I've come across ref the Alhambra Decree as also directed toward Muslims. Either the ref is in error, or perhaps there is a separate decree issued in regard to Muslims also called the Alhambra Decree, or the text provided is incomplete or a truncated version directed solely towards Jews. Just seeking clarification. --Trippz (talk) 12:44, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is the text of the decree. That's all there was. Therefore any sources that claim otherwise are wrong. -- Zsero (talk) 19:18, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, my mistake. The ref I mentioned does seem to be in error, or I read it wrong. Either way further research indicates 1609 as the Muslim expulsion. Sorry for any confusion. For those interested, details can be found here ... Spanish_Inquisition#Repression_of_Muslims. ---Trippz (talk) 09:40, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that Muslims were threatened and persecuted while Jews were straight-forwarldy expelled. There was, after all, the Treaty of Granada that the Catholic Monarchs agreed to, that gave numerous and reasonable rights to Muslims, before breaking it. 151.197.117.178 (talk) 04:02, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reverted edit to my last version. editor said "hostility to moors irrelevant to this article" Do not understand that statement as my research shows that the 1492 Treaty was with Isabella-Castile & the last Nasrid Muslim Emir Muhammad XII. That its effects were: (1.) immediate 'either/or' forced expulsion (and mass executions) for Jews not converting; Jewish conversos = Marrano in 1492 & (2.) written acceptance of Moors (Mudéjar people) continuing as practicing Muslims and staying in the country. In practice imperfect but not the 'either/or' demands Jews received. Then in c.1501 Ferdinand II, Spanish Inquisition founder, 'uncomfortable' Mudéjars' existance and by c.1502, via 'either/or' demands on Muslims, all remaining were decreed Catholic, Muslim conversos = Morisco. Please check related articles for Islam and Muslim relevance. ---Look2See1 (talk) 20:58, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Language?

It looks an awful lot like the Edict is written with the Arabic alphabet (though it looks like it's written left-to-right, so I cannot assume that it is also in Arabic). Might some mention be given of what language the edict was actually written in? RobertM525 (talk) 00:00, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good question. I wonder what the source of the image is. Unfortunately, and I find this a lot with images, it was copied up to the commons, and the source there is given as the English WP, with no indication of where that came from. -- Zsero (talk) 00:09, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I did a Google Image search for Alhambra Decree, and I found many other images of the same document. Unfortunately, I didn't see any that spoke to the language on said document. RobertM525 (talk) 04:51, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Muslims were converted or expelled later, starting from 1497. The 1492 decree only concerned Jews. Giordaano (talk) 10:21, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

'''In Spanish, obviously!''' The original 1492 Decree language was wrote was: Spanish, obviously! and signed by 'Yo, el Rey' and 'Yo, la Reina', and granted by Royal Secretary signature 'Joan de Coloma' suposed to have jews ancestors. Any other suposed translation to ancien sephardic language 'ladino' or arabic is a mixtification, a fake. Decree order jews must 'salida' -comes out- not only off Spain's shores but also off all Isabel & Fernando possesions beyond Spain mainland: Naples, Corsica & Sardinya, Balearics Islands, Canary Islands, north africans 'plazas', etc. and after comes in effect over the Americas. But did not comes in effect in Navarra kingdom, because it was incorporated to Castila crown by King Fernando in 1512. Infamous Spanish Inquisition was banned in 1836, liberty and freedom for any religion in Spain was stablisehd in 1868. Since 1924 to nowadays, alls Spain' governments and rulers have issued nationals passaports to any sephardic jew who apply for. In WWII, Spanish diplomacy helped and saved over 56,000 jews a top record figure -much more than Sweden and Dennmak did- an never was involved in Holocaust: in reverse of french Vichy pro nazi government, not a single jew was rounded, put under arrest or deported by Spain in WWII years. And the 1492 expelletion decree has officially repeled in 1968 by Franco dictatorship and in 2002 by democratic king Juan Carlos the Ist. Spain have fully diplomatics relations with Israel since 1985 -including spanishs weapons deliverings to Israel. Minister of External Affairs officially funds the 'Casa Sefarad' institution to improve sephardic past. Barcelonne city is sistered with Tel Aviv. And a lot of ancien cities proud of its sephardic roots as Gerona, Toledo, etc. have developed 'Red de Juderías de España' -'Sephardics streets web', a 'judería' means a ghetto, an urban toponymia: a pack of cornered and narrows middle age's streets or 'barrio' where sephardics jews used to living. Lot of spanishs journalists, intelectuals and politicians both from left and ritgh wing openly suport Israel policy and jewish heritage. Of course, as a democratic, modern and a free country must do, thre is not any anti jew law or rule nowadays in Spain, and since more than 150 years. So: case closed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.201.84.254 (talk) 12:33, 27 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Secular?

Who were the secular in 15th century Europe? This entire article sounds like Christian apologetics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.253.73.146 (talk) 18:06, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia article flagrantly guilty of an outright lie about the massacres of 1011 and 1066.

I simply cannot believe my eyes.

The Wikipedia article claims that:

"During persecutions by Iberian Christians, such as the pogroms in Córdoba (1011) and Granada (1066), they [Jews] were assisted by Muslims. Therefore Jews supported and sometimes even assisted their Muslim rulers never forgetting the harsh treatment they had suffered under the Visigothic rulers of the Iberian Peninsula prior to the arrival of Muslims to Iberia[citation needed]."

This is a carefully crafted nasty and vicious lie on the part of the author, because exactly the opposite happened. Cordoba in 1011 and Granada in 1066 were under Muslim, not Christian control, and indeed they were the sites of the first large-scale massacres of Jews in medieval Spain, and they were the work of Muslims.

The truth is referred to in the Wikipedia page on pogrom.

"The eleventh century, however, saw several Muslim pogroms against Jews; those that occurred in Cordoba in 1011 and in Granada in 1066.[6] In the 1066 Granada massacre, a Muslim mob crucified the Jewish vizier Joseph ibn Naghrela and massacred about 4,000 Jews.[7] In 1033 about 6,000 Jews were killed in Fez, Morocco by Muslim mobs.[8][9] Mobs in Fez murdered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, in 1465.[10]"

More on the 'assistance provide by Muslims' to Jews in Spain is given on the page about Maimonides:

"The Almohades from Africa conquered Córdoba in 1148, and threatened the Jewish community with the choice of conversion to Islam, death, or exile.[9] Maimonides's family, along with most other Jews, chose exile."

Apart from the outright lie I described, the article fails to provide references at its most contentious points. Furthermore, while it mentions that many Jews indeed went to the Ottoman Empire from Spain, it fails to make any mention of the Spanish Jews who found in refuge in Christian lands, for example in the city-states of Italy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.68.95.65 (talk) 05:11, 20 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As for Wikipedia, I suggest greater attention be paid to pursuit of the facts, rather than of this so-called 'neutral point of view'.

Jacob Davidson —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.68.95.65 (talk) 04:58, 20 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please avoid hyperbolic language. There is no "outright lie" involved and this is not an adequate venue for internet warring.Asilah1981 (talk) 16:15, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well spotted. This vandalism was committed by 67.191.173.68 on 3-Jan-2009, and has gone unnoticed since then. I've restored the version of this paragraph that was there before that date. -- Zsero (talk) 09:21, 20 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Genetic studies

What do modern genetic studies of Spanish men have to do with the actual Alhambra Decree. It should be removed from this location as it has no bearing here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.162.77.10 (talk) 18:25, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]