Talk:Main Page/Archive 109

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Recent publications/media should not be featured on the main page

... as it creates an appearance of advertising, and provides incentives for people to actually use Wikipedia for advertising. Anyone who has something they want to sell can write a featured article quality article about it, and providing that it got mainly positive reviews, they now have a strong incentive to do so. Only articles about mainstream, no-commercial topics should be featured. Those are actually the articles we should be looking to incentivise people to write in any case. Postlebury 19:35, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I think we're here to write an encyclopedia, and the front page is to show off our best articles. If a company manages to write about one of it's products with NPOV, citations, and everything else that an article needs to become featured, I see no reason not to have it on the front page. However, I think commercial TFAs should have a review to check that the article hasn't become unbalanced since being awarded FA before it goes up. I don't think there's any reason to go as far as not putting up any commercial TFAs. Capuchin 19:44, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
If a company manages to write about one of it's products with NPOV, citations, and everything else that an article needs to become featured, I see no reason not to have it on the front page - I agree with this. Raul654 19:48, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
As do I. Part of what sets Wikipedia apart from paper encyclopedias is our ability to cover topics that they cannot. I see no valid reason to place artificial restrictions on the types of content that we feature on the main page. —David Levy 19:54, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Capuchin, Raul and David. (COI disclaimer: I'm the primary author of the Fun Home article, and have no affiliation with the book or its author other than being a fan.) I'd go further and say that recent publications and media are something that Wikipedia has the potential to cover well, in an encyclopedic fashion. As long as the article itself and the TFA summary are neutrally presented, with an accurate summary of what reliable sources have said about the subject, what does it matter if as a side effect the TFA promotes its subject? Should we refrain from featuring Hey Jude, because its reviews are positive and putting it on TFA could possibly be construed as promotion for Paul McCartney? I don't think so. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:21, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
This is exactly the point I was going to make. If we stretch the OP's concerns a little further (perhaps to absurdity, perhaps not), most TFAs (that have an accurately positive article) will produce some additional income for the subject of the TFA, just because people will become aware that it exists and some people will like it and buy it or go to see it or study it deeper or whatever. Are we to refuse TFA to any featured article about a subject that anybody in the world is making a profit from? I think not. Capuchin 20:26, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
And additionally, OP, why are you only concerned with positive articles? Surely featuring accurately negative articles is just as bad as it would perhaps reduce the profit that a company (or individual, charity, political party, nation, etc.) was making? Or is that OK in your book? (If slightly bitey, I apologise, I don't intend it to be). Capuchin 20:32, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally, in what sense is a book which was nominated for a National Book Critics Circle Award and called the "best book of 2006" by Time magazine not mainstream? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:25, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Just picking up on an over-generalisation above: "If a company manages to write about one of it's products with NPOV, citations, and everything else that an article needs to become featured, I see no reason not to have it on the front page" - I thought Wikipedia and Jimbo Wales are generally considered to be exceptions to this? :-) Seriously, though, what happens when they day comes when we feature an article about a living person who is known to have edited Wikipedia? Has that already happened? Would there be any problems if that person had been involved with helping to write the article? Carcharoth 21:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Putting self-promotion by Wikipedia aside, I don't see why participation by the subject of an article should preclude that article being featured on the front page — as long as the article is neutral, well-sourced and everything else required of a featured article. Why not harness vanity as a potential incentive for article improvement? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:25, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't think there would be a problem if the person just happens to have edited wikipedia even their own article. For example I don't see a problem if we TFA Richard Dawkins or even John Quiggin just because they happened to have edited their article and in JQ's case an active wikipedian. However if the person is predominantly known for his or her association with wikipedia or if it's otherwise a significant part of their identity then it's liable to be more controversial (similar to Jimbo Wales). Nil Einne 18:42, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

sourcing and point of view

If I am not mistaken, Wikipedia states that articles should give more weight to the scholarly consensus rather than minority opinions. However, I could not easily find out about this matter in regards to Wikipedia. Can someone please direct me to the appropriate page. Needhelp777 21:41, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. — TKD::Talk 21:42, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No Original Research are relevant as well. 138.237.165.140 21:43, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
WP:WEIGHT. Corvus cornix 17:14, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

second question

I recall reading something at Wikipedia regarding their rules stating that certain pictures that are "racy" (for lack of a better term at the moment) are allowable for articles such as penis and pornography. Can someone direct me to the appropriate rule page? Needhelp777 22:20, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Content disclaimer - "Wikipedia contains spoilers and material you may find objectionable". Evil Monkey - Hello 22:22, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
EvilMonkey, I appreciate the help but that was not the page that I just read about 15 minutes ago that I cannot find now. Does anyone know the rule page that mentions explicit photos/depictions in regards to articles such as penis or pornography. Needhelp777 22:25, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Maybe WP:NOT#Censored? Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 22:54, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
And in response to the recent IP edits posting swear words here, just because policy says there can be articles about that, and WP:NOT#Censored, doesn't mean you can say f*** b**** mother**** like you've been doing. It's been reverted thrice, so stop. Yamakiri on Firefox 23:41, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
The guideline that Yamakiri is possibly referring to is WP:CIVIL. Bottom line, articles can contain objectional content in context, editors on the other hand are expected to remain civil in all their actions. --Monotonehell 08:44, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
BTW there are better places to get help, try the link at the top Nil Einne 18:24, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

NPOV

I think there is an NPOV problem in saying "the fourth plane" in the "on this day..." section. Should read "a plane" or "another plane". Sean 09:03, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

What point of view is being forwarded by the use of "fourth", exactly? The359 09:45, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
The tinfoil hats think it was an unrelated aircraft piloted by the CIA/NSA/ATF/Whatever. 69.95.50.15 12:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not change its wording because of some crazy conspiracy theories. Tourskin 20:15, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

The title?

I didn't know where to place this, so here it goes.

The title of every article has gone from being big and bold to being just like the rest of the text. Is this intentional? --The monkeyhate 17:04, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

look one above. Same cause. --Poupée de chaussette Demand satisfaction? 17:06, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

How about observing this milestone on the WP logo, like the Russian WP is currently doing? --Camptown 09:23, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Great idea! Nick Warren 09:31, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Bad idea. The Wikipedia logo is copyrighted to the Wikimedia Foundation and shouldn't be modified like that. Not very wiki, I know, but I believe that is the position with respect to the Wikipedia logo. It should only be the Wikimedia Foundation that modify it and release new versions of it. Carcharoth 10:53, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Party pooper! Anyways, Wikipedia would be using the logo, no-one else, and it'd just be for a day or so. Why would Wikimedia care? If ru.wiki did it why can't we? Yamakiri 13:35, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Um, we are wikipedia, we can do anything to the logo that we want. I would advise against it, because it looks cheap, but there are no legal reasons not to... --T-rex 16:51, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is just one of many projects operated by the Wikimedia Foundation. We may edit the encyclopedia, but they hold the copyright on the logo and a few other things. See Category:CopyrightByWikimedia, which clearly states;

"© & ™ All rights reserved, Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.. Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of Wikimedia Foundation, Inc."

I'm not saying that they can't design and release a new version, but I'm saying that we can't. It is not licensed under the GFDL. Carcharoth 17:13, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Yea, but the fact that wikimedia owns the copyright means nothing as wikimedia also owns this site. They can't violate their own copyright... --T-rex 18:05, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Uh, that was my point...Yamakiri on Firefox 18:16, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

The thing is, nobody here has the right to design and publish a modified logo based on the Foundation's image. If I were to do so and upload it, Wikipedia might not be violating copyright law, but I would be.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 18:52, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm glad someone understands what I was saying. Carcharoth 20:17, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
If that is true, how have other Wikipedias gotten away with putting up modified logos when milestones are passed? Of course, it isn't ok for us to break the law just because others have, I'm just genuinely curious.--Danaman5 20:24, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Maybe they asked for permission? Carcharoth 20:26, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I have emailed the right people in the Foundation asking what the deal is. It's a Sunday, so don't expect to hear back until at least tomorrow. Raul654 20:31, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

A temporary (week) variation may be nice.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  20:43, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Those asking for 'permission' and claiming a 'copyright violation' on the site that owns the copyright are just silly. Go to Commons, upload it, tag it with Commons:Template:CopyrightByWikimedia and Commons:Template:InternalUseOnly and be done with it. No harm, no foul, no wasting of the foundation's time. Honestly, what do you think they are going to do if we did make a deriative of thier logo? The only option would be to sue the site it's on, and they aren't going to sue themselves for copyright violation. It's no different that McDonalds creating advertisments and making the logo look different, they own the copyright, they can do whatever they want with it. — Moe ε 22:37, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, for the record, Anthere has already said she has no problem with wikis temporarily using a modified form of the logo. I expect Mike to say something similiar tomorrow. Raul654 22:46, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Moe, is that Russian modified logo in that category? I can't work out the filename of the Russian image. Also, the distinction between this sort of process, and a GFDL image process, needs to be made clear. Otherwise editors will misunderstand things and upload modified Wikipedia logos with GFDL tags. Also, how do you square Raul's report that the stance is "wikis temporarily using a modified form of the logo" and the idea that users might adorn their userspace with modified versions of the Wikipedia logo? Carcharoth 23:59, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, if you're looking for me to understand Russian any better than you, you aren't looking in the right place. While you bring up and interesting point of people tagging them as GFDL, retagging them is not an issue; the tags for deriatives of the logos state This image (or parts of it) is copyrighted by the Wikimedia Foundation. and Notwithstanding any other statements, this image has not been licensed under the GFDL.. The other template states This image is a derivative of an official Wikimedia project logo and may only be used internally in Wikimedia projects. As it squaring with Raul's report, I believe the issue here was temporarily replacing the Wikipedia logo with a deriative, and thats what the report is refering to, not the use of it on the userspace. I believe asking for permission was silly and a waste of the Foundations time, but it's probably unnessecary, and they are likely to support a alternate logo being used. — Moe ε 01:47, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Um major, major factual error there... I'm not a lawyer and this is obviously not legal advice but I'm pretty sure those who contributed copyright violating content rather then the site are generally the ones sued. Indeed generally speaking in many countries (including the USA) the site just has to take it down when asked. It's the original uploader who will be sued for copyright violation. What you are suggesting is nearly as silly as saying I can upload a Windows Vista ISO to a public Microsoft server and then Microsoft have to sue themselves. No they just delete the ISO and sue me for uploading it! Or to use the McDonalds example... McDonalds can create derivatives of their logos, sure. But it doesn't mean every employee or franchise owner can create a derivative of the logo. Even if the franchise or employee agreement doesn't specify it, they can't just create deriative logos and use them since the copyright belongs to McDonalds not the employee/franchise. (They're unlikely to sue the person of course, more likely the'll just say stop) Now I don't think Wikimedia is going to sue anyone for uploading a modified logo to the wikimedia servers (indeed although it's a copyright violation I doubt they would succeed) but it doesn't mean that it's automatically okay to do so. Indeed I strongly suspect they don't mind at all. But as with others, I suggest we just wait for preferably blanket permission. Edit: I just realised I completely forgot my main point. It is important that all editors realise they are responsible for what they contribute. If you contribute copyright violating material, the copyright owners can sue you. You're not somehow magically protected by the foundation because you uploaded it to their servers. You are still responsible for what you contribute Nil Einne 00:16, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I think you're wrong. The individuals sued for potential violations of intellectual property or copyright violations are held by site owners, not individual developers or users of the site (i.e. the Napster or LimeWire cases, individuals were not named, the entire site was at fault and the owners were sued). No, we aren't magically protected by the Foundation, no one is, but I don't think the Wikimedia Foundation is too keen to start suing individual editors. Suing individual editors is in effect suing themselves. No one is going to contribute or donate to them if the Foundation took measures to that extreme against those who are volunteers. And FYI, don't believe every site doesn't have an upload log, so even if you did upload a file onto a server illegally, it's not always known who originally did it, it's just the site's fault for adding it without claiming fair use or otherwise. Naturally, employees (in this case volunteers) are not subject to owning the copyright of a logo, and I didn't say that did, but asking for permission to make a deriative and being granted permission is acceptable (which I didn't say was bad in this case, but probably just a waste of time for the Foundation to spend supporting something that has already been happening for at least two years with other logos on thier servers). — Moe ε 01:47, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
In the napster case, both Napster and the end users were liable. The end users were liable for copyright infringement, and napster was held to be liable for contributory copyright infringement. The court ruled that Napster could filter, didn't, and therefore was liable. The DMCA section 230 provides a safe-harbor provision for "service providers" (usually understood to mean Internet Service Providers, i.e., ISPs), but the Foundation believes it is also covered by this provision provided it does not interfere in the day-to-day runnings of the wikis.
With that said, whoever modifies and re-uploads the Foundation logo is violating the Foundation's copyright and trademark. However, the first thing they teach you on the first day of law school if that you don't sue poor people ;) (which is why, the latest round of RIAA extortion aside, the Napster end users were not sued). Realistically, the Foundation is not going to sue people in-house users who do this kind of stuff. In fact, as I have said above, Anthere doesn't object, and I don't think Michael will either, as long as it's all kept in-house. Raul654 03:03, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
One additional point: The only way a logo could be considered copyright infringement, in my IANAL understanding, is for it to be used in a way that either damages a company's business model (e.g. the Microsoft ISOs used as examples above) or removes potential revenue (like the RIAA cases), which at a fundamental level, are the same thing. If you create a program, and then give its copyright right back to Microsoft, surrendering your claim to copyright, I don't see how Microsoft would have a leg to stand upon if the company decided to sue you. Same here. If you create a derivative logo, and surrender your copyright by transferring immediately to the Wikimedia Foundation, I don't see how you could be sued for copyright infringement. At the point you transferred your rights, you could make the argument that it be construed as a work for hire, and the Foundation is free to do anything it wishes with your derivative logo. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 04:35, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I realise this is all about internal use, but if such use isn't kept under control you could get people making inappropriate alterations to the logo (not that much of a problem - just delete them). You could also get such altered logos being used outside Wikimedia Foundation projects, which is obviously a no-no. But that could happen if people get the impression they can do what they like with the logo. I just wanted to counter the "we are wikipedia, we can do anything to the logo that we want" attitude. I suspect that the correct statement is something more like "The community of users of the English-language Wikipedia, a project of the Wikimedia Foundation, can, within reason, like other project-communities, and using the right copyright tags, produce altered versions of relevant Wikimedia Foundation logos for specific and temporary purposes." Of course, IANAL, and if the Foundation say something different, then obviously that is what matters. The question of how to approve and reject these versions of the logo, I have no idea. The commmunity polices that category of images, I suppose? Carcharoth 08:37, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Legal issues aside, I strongly oppose this idea. It might make sense for smaller Wikipedias, but we're supposed to be concentrating primarily on quality, not quantity. Placing a "2,000,000" image on every page is hardly the way to convey that. It would imply that we care more about continually adding new articles than we do about improving existing ones. —David Levy 00:54, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Really don't think anyone has to worry about lawsuits here, this is internal, we're among friends. We ask and wait for an answer. If people act without asking and the WikiMedia foundation doesn't like it, we can just get rid of it. Asking would be prudent since organizations are often careful with their logos, often for good reason. But I wouldn't worry about lawsuits for something belonging to the WikiMedia foundation posted on Wikipedia itself. Best, --Shirahadasha 02:56, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
The "we" is a bit vague there. You might get people who like "their" altered version of the logo digging in their heels despite being told it is not "theirs". They might say that other editors don't have the right to delete "their" logo, and it might require a Foundation representative to turn up and say "stop being silly, get rid of that travesty". Carcharoth 08:39, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm one of image/copyright-observers in Russian Wikipedia. Yes, we make the der.works from Wikipedia Logo. But we don't tag them by GFDL or other free license. All our derivative Wikipedia Logos (Plz, see ru:Категория:Изображения:Собственность фонда Викимедиа) are marked by {{CopyrightByWikimedia}} (localised version), in other words (figuratively) we are presenting such der.works to Wikimedia foundation. If I or other i/c-observer find the derivative Wikipedia Logo without CopyrightByWikimedia tag, we always add it. Alex Spade 05:43, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Ah. Thanks for clearing that up. I was sure that was the case, but it's nice to have it confirmed. Carcharoth 08:37, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
It looks like there was more interest in ru-wiki's 200,000th article, than there is interest in en-wiki's 2,000,000th article. I believe the modified logo is pretty harmless (and I have seen this in many wikipedias before), but English Wikipedia is not in a position to trumpet the sheer number of pages. Our concerns have long shifted from quantity to quality. --Ghirla-трёп- 12:43, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
They were celebrating 200,000 articles were they? Oh. That's embarassing. I misread the number of 0's and thought they were celebrating en-wikipedia having 2,000,000 articles... I do remember thinking that was a bit strange. Mea culpa. Carcharoth 16:28, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
  • RuWP has reverted that logo two hours ago, because celebrations are ended. But FYI, many Wikipedias change their logo by adding national elements or applying flag colours. So, if the image will not be used outside Wikimedia, there is no problem. If it will, it's the problem of one who used it, not ours. — Kalan ? 13:52, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I heard back from Mike Godwin, the Foundation's attorney. He doesn't believe that temporarily changing our logo for in-house use will be a problem. Raul654 19:12, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

That's good to hear. Thanks, Raul. Now people can argue over what "temporary" means... :-P Carcharoth 21:02, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Something thats not permanent. But now u see we must define permanent...
...Something thats not temporary...oh rats!! Tourskin 05:59, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Actually it doesn't matter in this case IMHO provided we can agree a modified logo appearing in the main page for a few days to then be deleted is temporary. Definitions only matter when there is a dispute. Nil Einne 18:46, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
K, we can just do what the Russians do except instead of having their number, have 2 M (like 2 mega), or 2 million or something technical cos 2,000,000 is probably too long to fit in the logo.
Actually I like 2 MegaTourskin 01:51, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Main Page source question

On the Main page, when I click view source the following appear:

I know it has something to do with the Main page being cascading, which I think means it has a .css. Could someone tell me why it says all of that though? Just wondering... Yamakiri 21:32, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Those are page mirrors incase rouge admins delete the main page. Cascading protection, (not cascading style sheets, css) means that all pages transcluded on it are fully protected. Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 21:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Oh, thanks then. Yamakiri 22:41, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
It is really stupid, they could easily all be deleted in less then a second. Prodego talk 01:49, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
But it does mean that admins dont get undeletion conflicts. Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 03:30, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes but that's assuming the admin is prepared. Many admins or people who take over admin accounts may not be Nil Einne 17:40, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, a rouge admin could do much more damage than deleting the number two most viewed page. (Number one most viewed page is a Special: page and cant be deleted). Just delete the sandbox or something :p Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 22:50, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
If it helps, most rogue admins and/or compromised admin accounts so far have in fact just deleted the main page and sometimes blocked a bunch of people I think Nil Einne 15:37, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Why is everyone crazy about an articles number?

You won't see people going crazy after the 2,532,127th article, now will you?

Maybe for the 2,097,152nd article though. Prodego talk 01:36, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
let me reverse the question - why aren't you crazy? Don't tell me that you stayed at home when the millenium celebrations were under way? Don't be party pooper.Tourskin 01:55, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
(I did stay home in 1999, I celebrated it at the end of 2000 like all proper people who aren't transfixed with round numbers should be ;) --Monotonehell 08:53, 11 September 2007 (UTC))
Because it is special. It is an even number. Now, how do you propose to celebrate 100,000,000?
Because it is one of very few recognizeable numeric benchmarks we have for judging the growth of the English Wikipedia. I wonder if we could somehow count the number of references used... That might measure our quality a little better. :-) Grandmasterka 03:06, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
That's easy, download the latest Wikipedia dump, and pipe the data through a simple phrase counter. —Dark•Shikari[T] 03:27, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Also, I just did the math on the latest dump, and there are 1,219,735 references in Wikipedia. —Dark•Shikari[T] 05:29, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Does that include all referencing formats? Less than one reference per article?? :-0 Grandmasterka 05:58, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
If you have the data, please post the (# references)/article distribution... that sounds like an interesting analysis. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 06:02, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
That would be more difficult. All I did was cat dump.xml | grep "<ref>" -o | wc -l. So that's only counting inline references. —Dark•Shikari[T] 06:56, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

counting the number of references is pointless. You might as well count occurrences of "some believe". I used to keep repeating at people that counting the number of articles is just as pointless, because we have no standardised merging/splitting criteria, which makes it completely arbitrary what will end up as "one article". The only objective quantity that is easy to measure is the number of words or bytes (or "shelfspace"). It is really beyond me why nobody focusses on that and everybody counts "articles" instead. --dab (𒁳) 07:27, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

The point, as I said, would be to attempt to measure Wikipedia's quality, rather than its quantity. Grandmasterka 10:27, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
yes. There is no way to do that automatically. But we have WP:FA and WP:GA, where you can count the articles that were deemed "good" manually (some 4,500 articles, which vastly under-represents the actual number of good articles). My point is that to measure quantity you have to count bytes, not "articles". --dab (𒁳) 10:41, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Words or bytes might be affected by redundancy and repetition. Use the size of a compressed zip of Wikipedia. :)

It is human to be fascinated by numbers and statistics, 2 million is a really impressive number to us who use base 10. Most of the sports trivia is useless numbers. Jeltz talk 14:34, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

"Sports trivia is useless numbers"? Not if it's NFL trivia. Useight 14:46, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Words per article might be an indication as to the quality of Wikipedia. — Adriaan (T★C) 15:10, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
No, you can have wonderful well-written stubbish articles but 100kb of pure garbage. While numbers are interesting, there is no quantative method to determine the quality of Wikipedia. It only measures the quantity of something. GizzaDiscuss © 07:37, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

IAAF Grand Prix

The current news list contains an item on Powell breaking the 100m spring record at the IAAF Grand Prix at Rieti, Italy. I can't find a WP article on that event. Is that the correct name for the event? Ordinary Person 09:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

There isn't a page on the event at the moment. The IAAF page has links to the tournaments that have wikipedia pages. Recurring dreams 10:35, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Unverified section in Thou

Please see the thread(s) at Talk:Thou. --Dweller 10:39, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

FA thumbnail missing

Featured Article thumbnail is missing again today. This seems to be happening every couple of weeks now. What gives? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.54.11.145 (talk) 20:49, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

It isn't missing, it simply doesn't have one. A while back, it got decided that fair use images would no longer be allowed on the Main Page, and there are some topics that simply don't have a logical free alternative.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 20:53, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
The policy at the moment seems to be to not use a thumbnail unless there is a free image available. If only non-free images or irrelevant free images are available, the second-best thing is to have no thumbnail image at all. Just read the text instead! :-) Carcharoth 20:54, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
In this particular case, when the article became a Featured Article the image Image:Alisonbechdel2.jpg was included in it, but it turned out that it had been tagged with the wrong license. The photo was actually licensed as Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 2.0, which isn't "free enough" for Wikipedia's purposes. I've contacted some other photographers to see if anyone is willing to release a photo of Bechdel under a free license, but so far I'm 0 for 3. Everyone is willing to release a photo "for use on Wikipedia", but when I explain about free content and downstream use, they balk.
Personally, I think that not using a fair use image on the front page in a case like this is silly, since it's not as if downstream users are going to copy the Main Page. But apparently Jimbo disagrees, and nobody's been willing to go against him. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:12, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
This is all nonsense. There is no copyright rationale for omitting the image. It meets all four fair use factors -- small proportion of the work (it's a thumbnail), educational use (in an encyclopedia), non-commercial use (a free encyclopedia with no ads), and non-competing use (the copyright holder's work is not also an encyclopedia). The real problem is that this seems to keep happening specifically in the worst possible case, which is when the subject of the FA is a painting or other graphic-design type of work! If the work actually has a CC license it's especially ridiculous. The use can't possibly be infringing then. It's with permission of the copyright holder unless Wikipedia one day started using ads, or someone cloned and sold a copy, or something. And then it's once again simply fair use. Also, if someone cloned and sold a copy it would be that someone and not Wikipedia that potentially infringed (but still met three of the fair use factors!); lastly, for the thumbnail use on the main page to be a problem this would have to happen on that very day, not one day sooner or later(!); a future ad-supported Wikipedia could simply avoid using ads (at least on the main page) for the one day, or live with only meeting three of the four fair use factors. :P —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.54.11.145 (talk) 21:03, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is supposed to be the free encyclopedia, ideally we should not be using copyrighted images anywhere. Mr.Z-man 21:30, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia, ideally we should be as informative as possible while still being legal. The fact that downstream users might not be able to be as informative as we are does not mean we should be less informative. Atropos 22:15, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Actually we're supposed to be both. So we have to be as free as possible without compromising our goal of being an encylopaedia and as encylopaedic as possible without compromising our goal of being free. Both of these are equally important and you're not likely to get anywhere if you don't agree with this view IMHO. What you need to do is to convince people that you are not compromising the goal of being free which you are never going to do as long as you ignore the fact that both being free and an encylopaedia are equally important. Nil Einne 15:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
  • It is a shame that no image is being used. There was never a community consensus to stop using fair-use images on the Main Page. What happened was not consensus driven at all. One day Jimbo replaced a fair-use image with a free one and after that a small but vocal minority decided to start pulling fair-use images. We need to put the encyclopedia back into free encyclopedia. We have gone way too fair in removing legal fair-use content. Johntex\talk 21:44, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

As Nil Einne points out, the use of fair use images for articles in which they add encyclopedic value is an area in which the goals of "free" and "encyclopedia" are in conflict. If "free" is the sole goal, then copyrighted images should never be used. If "encyclopedia" is the goal, then copyrighted images will have to be used in some circumstances, in order to make the content both comprehensive and intelligible. The ongoing dance about copyrighted images is an attempt to find a compromise between these two important values.

Johntex is correct that the removal of fair-use images from TFA was not community-driven or reached by consensus. Last time this happened Jimbo was asked for his opinion on the subject; he said, "I think such images should be strongly avoided for the homepage of Wikipedia," but declined to go into any detail explaining his reasoning, and the discussion stalled out once again.

I'm somewhat frustrated by this: it seems to go against the spirit of Jimbo's own quote at "Wikipedia:Argumentum ad Jimbonem," where he's quoted as saying "I think that almost any argument, on any topic, which has premises beginning with "Jimbo said..." is a pretty weak argument. Surely the merits of the proposal should be primary, not what I happen to think." But in the case of whether to use copyrighted images on the main page, the reasons really reduce down to "Because Jimbo said so." It seems to me that Jimbo's actions and failure to explain his reasoning have created a stalemate in favor of his positions, although the community is far from consensus on this subject and there are legitimate arguments to be made on both sides. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:53, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The main page

Just want to say.. thanks a lot for making such an interesting main page :) The 'in the news' section always has things which are important and yet often neglected in mainstream media, and imo represents a fairly worldwide view (more worldwide than most anyway). 86.137.123.74 17:30, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

You are welcome. :) --mav 00:35, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Need more Mozart porn :P Raul654 20:21, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

2007 Indian Ocean Earthquake and tsunami, shouldn't it be in the main page?

Hi. This stuff was on the news! Why isn't in the mainpage? It's mag. 8.4 and triggered a tsunami warning as far away as Kenya! You put it on the main page when a strong quake struck the Solomon Islands, and also when one struck Peru. Why isn't this on the main page??? Does wikinews have an article on it yet, so I could perhaps edit it? Help! Thanks. ~AH1(TCU) 00:34, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

We have certain criteria that need to be in place for both the event and article quality before that happens. However, in this case, this article and event were eligible for at least several hours (possibly as long as 8). It was simply an oversight no admin acted on the request at the request page. I therefore placed this item on ITN. Apologies on not doing so sooner. --mav 00:48, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Russian PM

Shouldn't this be on the front page? If the Japanese PM resigning was on the front page, I don't see why this (with further reaching consequences) shouldn't be.

WP:ITN/C. —METS501 (talk) 02:53, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Fungi fungi fungi

Why is tomorrow's featured article going to be EXACTLY the same as today's? Simply south 15:59, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Dungeons & Dragons is a type of fungi? Nil Einne 17:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
It is if you've left the game in a dark corner of your room. Tourskin 19:17, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I am now going to ask, what the...? When i went to the tomorrow link before, it clearly showed today's article and now it is showing the proper one (I suppose). So what is going on? Did someone mess with the main page template? Simply south 20:07, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Don't know..Wikipedia:Today's featured article/September 14, 2007's page history shows its always been D&D, and Main Page/Tomorrow hasn't had any edits since February. A cache error, perhaps?--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 20:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Bypass your cache (Or use the archive) Raul654 20:14, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
You can also use the toolbox at the top. If you click on TFA it will take you directly to the correctly dated TFA article (and you can also check the date to make sure it's the right on). Incidentally, don't forget to try purging as well (this is mentioned in the bypass your cache but in case you don't read it). When I visited the tomorrow's main page a few minutes ago it was indeed the fungi. It became D&D when I purged although I forgot to clear my browser cache so I don't know for sure if it was browser cache related which was cleared when I purged (although I very rarely visit the tomorrow link) Nil Einne 20:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

bolded headlines

I think it looks too big. I prefer the old size. __earth (Talk) 15:55, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree - I'm viewing with Firefox on WinXP and I really dislike the change - which also appears to have been changed on article heading titles. --J. Atkins (talk | contribs) 16:12, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Same problem in German and French Wikipedia. sy, --Petar Marjanovic 16:16, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Eek, what is this madness? Far too flashy. Sections names in articles don't look like this, why are we bringing these out? --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 16:24, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, they look absolutely horrible to me (in Firefox and IE,anyway) Is this a mistake or a new look? 217.122.83.79 16:33, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

according to the discussion in german wikipedia, the central css has been changed (nobody there knows why). template:wrongtitle is broken too. --Poupée de chaussette Demand satisfaction? 16:52, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I believe the issue has been introduced inadvertently by a new Mediawiki revision and is being looked into now. It should be fixed soon hopefully. Will (aka Wimt) 16:53, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
And indeed it should now be fixed. If it still looks broken, try flushing your cache of your browser. Will (aka Wimt) 17:01, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
It's definitely back to normal now. Thanks. --J. Atkins (talk | contribs) 17:07, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Mozart canon in "Did You Know"

Was it really necessary to display the title "Lick Me in the Ass" on the main page? Not the best thing to see before coffee, and certainly not the best advertisement for WP for someone coming here for the first time. The title itself could have been hidden behind a link w/ another name. HiramShadraski 11:15, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

There's no help for that. We don't do Easter Egg links. --Dweller 11:48, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure what "easter egg link" is intended to mean. Here's an example of what I'm talking about: A Mozart canon. Note that unless you click on or hover over the link you don't see the actual title. HiramShadraski 12:19, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Piped_link#Intuitiveness. As DYKs are about specific articles, they do actually need to name the article. --Dweller 12:38, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Then perhaps this wasn't the best choice for inclusion on the main page. Simple decency, that's all. HiramShadraski 12:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not censored? Capuchin 12:44, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I thought it was one of the more interesting DYK items I have seen :). Thue | talk 13:59, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

This is a really bad attempt at proving that Wikipedia does not get censored. The encyclopaedia has an image, you know. — Adriaan (T★C) 04:43, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Correct. Every time something happens that offends you, it has been done intentionally to spite you or to make a point (to you). If something offends you (personally), then it is obviously safe to assume that it could not possibly have been done honestly or with good intentions. It's important to remember that everyone has the same sensibilities and opinions as you, they just pretend otherwise to make your life difficult. APL 12:56, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
You're saying, then, that the average person would/should never have any objections to seeing the phrase "lick me in the ass" in any venue and at any time? Huh. HiramShadraski 13:10, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
In the context we are discussing, yes, the "average person" (whatever that means) should not have any objection. Capuchin 13:24, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
No, it's not for us to say whether or not they should have an objection. Our decision is whether we allow that objection to interfere with our work. With regard to wikipedia content, the answer is of course not; the wikipedia is not censored. But with regard to the front page the answer is less clear; there are valid arguments on both sides. Certainly, though, if a link is on the front page its target should be obvious; a cleaned-up link title really does make the problem (if it is a problem) worse since people don't want unpleasant (in their view) surprises. Doops | talk 13:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for phrasing what I was obviously trying to say much better than I had done :). Capuchin 13:37, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
So, again: the better decision would have been to have left that particular item out of the DYK. And as for Capuchin's point: I wonder what sort of people s/he associates with, if the claim that the "average" person would have no objection to finding the phrase on the front page of a web resource can be taken as something s/he actually believes. HiramShadraski 14:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I honestly don't think I know anyone personally who would be offended by the inclusion of that title halfway down the mainpage. It is certainly of encyclopedic interest, and is not particularly shocking to anyone who has gone through elementary school. APL 15:00, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
It's of encyclopedic interest. I really don't think we should be filtering main page content for what some decide is "appropriate". There have been discussions like this when graphic images are featured (such as that one of a bird of prey decapitating a vole). It's encyclopedic. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Leebo T/C 15:21, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Let me be very clear about one thing here: I'm not suggesting that WP be "censored;" nor am I calling for "filtering." I'm not sure how anyone got that idea. All I'm referring to is the process of choosing what is and is not included on the main page every day - "we're not censored" does not and should not equate to "we don't ever take any matter of taste or propriety into consideration when deciding what to publish on the main page."
Note also that there is a difference between "offense" (a word others have used) and "objection" (the word, and concept, I'm using here). Consider an image of a drunk vomiting on a sidewalk, or of abdominal surgery - not offensive, but also certainly not what one - "average" or not - wishes to see as soon as one brings up Wikipedia. HiramShadraski 16:17, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
You're making an assumption when you dictate what the "average" wants to see. It's based on your own perspective, it can't not be. The problem arises when you consider that everyone's perspective is different, and thus the line is very unclear as to when something encyclopedic shouldn't be featured on the main page. The determining factor should simply be if it is of encyclopedic value. People come to Wikipedia to see an encyclopedia; I'm not going to guess what they would not like to see from said encyclopedia. Leebo T/C 16:52, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I personally think that this "Wikipedia is not censored" thing goes too far sometimes. Wikipedia is not a free for all encyclopedia so the rules should not be boundless either. The comment that is in question is in my opinion too much. Think of kids who might use this for their homework. I think we should allow educational images to be shown. Like the other day there was an image of a Lion eating a Buffalo - something many kids see anyways on documentaries or animal planet. Tourskin 19:22, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
And again, that's great that that's your opinion. But you won't find a "line in the sand" that everyone agrees on. You won't find a hard stop where everyone agrees that something is inappropriate for the main page. Leebo T/C 19:24, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
And thats where I think u r wrong because most countries have a very similar guidline as to what Children can see and not see. Tourskin 19:26, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
most countries have a very similar guidline as to what Children can see and not see. -- False Raul654 19:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Leebo's position here seems to be one of "if there is no universal standard, there can be no standard at all." Since there is only something very slightly less than a unanimity of agreement that a depiction of child rape or a video of a puppy being tortured would be objectionable, it follows that either of those subjects would be appropriate for the main page. This is quite obviously absurd. HiramShadraski 20:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
You've put words in my mouth, but I only partially disagree. If an article regarding those subjects became featured, I don't see why a link would be so objectionable. Someone still has to click it. Since we don't feature videos and a depiction of child rape could be illegal by Florida law (where Wikipedia is hosted), those are irrelevant arguments. Leebo T/C 20:22, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
See: Reductio ad absurdum. HiramShadraski 20:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Should I have replied with simply "See: Straw man". If you want me to spell that out... you attributed a position to me which is not my position and then refuted it. My position, as stated, is if something is of encyclopedic value and meets the criteria of a given section of the Main Page, it should not be restricted from the Main page solely because some Wikipedians find it objectionable." Leebo T/C 20:48, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I have not misrepresented your position; I've merely posited an order-of-magnitude increase in the degree of objectionability of the material in question. You seem not to (or at least to claim not to) have a threshold of objectionability, based on your response, so my RaA argument fails for that reason. It does not follow that your position is tenable, but there certainly seems to be little reason to continue down this road with you. HiramShadraski 21:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I would object to a depiction of child rape or puppy torture if they were proposed as Main Page featured material without any encyclopedic justification. I'm assuming there would be an encyclopedic value to the proposed material, or it would be rejected for that reason alone. I'm capable of recongizing when content may be objectionable, and the encyclopedic justification should accordingly be higher for more objectionable content. Leebo T/C 21:10, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
There is no disagreement here vis-a-vis encyclopedic value and the necessity of such to the inclusion of a topic on the main page. The point of disagreement seems to be over whether it is sufficient to consider encyclopedic value alone. Seems to me that Adriaan has hit the mark. HiramShadraski 21:21, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Being that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, I consider that to be the most important factor. Leebo T/C 21:24, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I seem to have missed the point. If the words "Lick my ass" or whatever were not on the Main Page, then who cares. But other than that Raul, you know better than I do to quote from wikipedia, let alone a section with no references. Besides, the UK and the US along with many other European countries (at least western european) dont allow kids to watch "lick my ass" on disney channel.Tourskin 20:25, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
That doesn't translate to "all countries agree on exactly what children should see". It also doesn't negate Raul's argument. Also, Wikipedia is not Disney Channel, it's more like the History Channel or Discovery Channel, where you may occasionally see things like naked breasts or graphic depictions of violence. Leebo T/C 20:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
This is silly. The phrase in question is a variant of "Kiss my ass". "Kiss my Ass" appears on TV and movies all the time. APL 21:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

What bothers me most about this discussion is that a couple people seem to have made the implication that the administrator that chose this DYK item was intentionally out to "prove" something or offend people just the rules allow him to. This is absurd. APL 21:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

What people? I dont think that an admin is trying to prove any point. I just don't like the words used. And secondly I did not say "all countries agree on exactly what children should see". Please people, don't corrupt my words. History channel will not put the words "lick my ass" unless its for an eductaional purpose. Ok we can debate what education means, so I withdraw my complaint of that. However, it is still true that many countries have a similar view on what kids should see. They wouldnot have "lick my ass" on most channels. That was my original point. It was Raul who was trying to negate my point. Read what I say before commenting, please! Tourskin 21:36, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Read up to the previous unindent. Adriaan clearly felt that the only reason an article about a Mozart piece was included on the main page was that it would prove something. Also, Wikipedia aims to universally inform, and should not adhere to anyone's views on modesty. Atropos 01:09, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Read up the message previous mine. It says "a couple of users". Note the plural, indicating that Adriaan may not be the only one. I am not one of those users, and that was my point - not that I actually understand any more because I'm so confused. Also, wikipedia aims to universally inform. My point is that the words "lick my ass" is not very universal, lol. Tourskin 02:34, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I have posted to the effect that I agree with Adriaan, so perhaps I provide the plurality. Whatever - I'm more convinced now than before that the material was put on the main page to make some kind of childish point.
It's also interesting to note that "lick me in the ass" isn't even a correct translation of the title of the work Mozart created. HiramShadraski 05:30, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
If you're certain it was for the purpose of making a childish point, have you told that to the person who wrote it and the admin who selected it? Their input would probably be helpful. Leebo T/C 15:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

bolder and more attractive colors and fonts on the main page

Has anybody ever thought about using bolder and more attractive colors and fonts on the main page. A strong main page makes the site look more attractive I think. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 11:51, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it has been discussed to death at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Usability/Main Page. The conclusion was that usability trumps aesthetics and hence, it should use a clearly readable, preferably core typeface while pastel colours keep Wikipedia from looking to gaudy, and to tie in with Wikipedia's relatively minimalist style. Of course, if you don't like the main page, we have a variety of Main Page alternatives, which you can use instead of our normal one. Laïka 12:31, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the default is highly attractive as it is. Maybe usability just turns me on? Capuchin 12:34, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Usability doesn't trump aesthetics! Usability and aesthetics are one. Doops | talk 12:51, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Oh God no. I did a design degree. Please don't start that one. Next you'll be quoting Loos saying that ornament is crime! :) --Monotonehell 13:54, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Heh. I guess like most quotations it means different things to different people. For me, it certainly doesn't mean aesthetics are unimportant — quite the reverse! Doops | talk 21:02, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I guess I am very artistic and prefer stronger and bolder appearance for the main. I know wikipedia is about content but there's so much that could be done to improve it -it is a little placid. I have my setting on cologne blue which is an improvement but I wish there was some way I could design my own fron page under my personal preference options ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 13:59, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Main Page alternative (executive) would be start with a bolder font ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 14:02, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

If your signature and userpage is any indication, i'm glad you can't have your way with the front page design. :) Capuchin 14:04, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

DOn't insult me !!!. Of cpurse I wouldn't want colors as bold as that for the main page. Just a bolder wikipedia header would be a start ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 14:06, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Well your user page is really interesting isn't it ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 14:07, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I didn't insult you, I'm just saying it isn't my style. Apologies if you took it the wrong way. My user page is as interesting as I wish it to be :) Capuchin 14:10, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I've added the executive link in my user page so when I click main page from now on its goes to this. I do think the title looks better bolder like this ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 14:18, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Since you feel you understand design well and feel you can design a main page which looks better but isn't less usable, why don't you get started on creating another Wikipedia:Main Page alternatives. Should you succeed in this goal, then it may very well be adopted after extensive discussion. I should warn you though that you'll likely find you won't succeed in your goal. People have vastly different opinions on what looks good and is easy to use. Of course there's nothing stopping you setting whichever page you want as your default mainpage Nil Einne 15:28, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Lots of bright, bold colours often look childish and the colours used here work very well. violet/riga (t) 20:57, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Judging by the simultaneously attractive and easy-to-use userpage he's made, I'd like Blofeld to personally create a new mainpage for immediate use. On April Fool's Day. 172.209.158.180 19:59, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Only if he includes that picture of Mr. Bigglesworth that's on his userpage. That would make it epic. Capuchin 07:13, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Photos always on subsection tops: wrong!

Your photos every day for e.g., "in the news", "on this day" are always on the top of the section --- whereas the related words might be buried much deeper. The user has to poke around for the matching story! How frustrating. If one doesn't know who the important person is pictured, he can't even guess which story the image refers to. Fix your template or whatever, please! Jidanni 22:42, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

They're supposed to be that way, so there isn't anything to fix. The item relevant to the the picture will have a caption, along the lines of (pictured) or some-such.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 22:47, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Well I will have you know that there is at least one section where they forgot to add a the "(pictured)"... And I won't tell you which so as to allow you to experience the "fun" of digging around!

See, the whole idea of purposely teasing the reader that he is supposed to know who the important people pictured are so therefore he needn't dig around in the text ... "(pictured)" or not ... is just saying "we like the fancy tease effect, tough luck." Jidanni 22:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Or if the picture must be at top, then its words should also. Jidanni 23:05, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I just checked, DYK, ITN, and SA all have the proper captions, so I'm not sure what the problem is there. Unless you're talking about the featured article, wherein the image is quite obviously the subject of the article. And honestly, I just don't see what you think of as "teasing". What's wrong with expecting a reader will, well, read?--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 23:10, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
He is talking about the picture of Shinzo Abe in ITN, people might confuse him for someone else in the news section like Vladimir Putin. --Hdt83 Chat 00:29, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually I was talking about OTD but it got fixed already or something -- that's besides the point! The point is this is not some old "see plate VII in the colour appendix" book where that's the best you can do. So please don't force the user to grope through unrelated thoughts to find which one belongs to the image, just to be "artsy craftsy". Jidanni 01:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Everything makes sense. The pictures are at the top because they look far better there. ITN pages are listed by most recent. OTD pages are listed chronologically. The DYK pictured item is usually at the top anyway. Its really not that hard to find the word pictured, and your tone is rather intense for something so superficial. Atropos 01:33, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Jidanni, I hear you, but my plan to have the word "pictured" made bold like this: (potrait pictured) was crushed by a discussion a few days ago. So no. (Hey that rhymes!).Tourskin 02:29, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
It's not just because they look better there. See the Wikipedia:Main Page FAQ Nil Einne 13:11, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Has anyone ever told you you're extremely boring? --86.133.28.227 11:45, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Are you addressing anyone in particular? —METS501 (talk) 13:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

we are near 25000 articles

hello every one we in fa.wikipedia.org (persian wikipedia) are near 25000 articles please give us a link in your main page thank every one--213.207.251.64 14:14, 13 September 2007 (UTC) my page in persian wikipedia

fa is 13 articles short, as of my last check. Here is the raw count for those who want to check the progress. - BanyanTree 14:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

i know i say we are very near 25000 articles--213.207.249.248 14:53, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

And when you reach 25,000... then we can give you that little link!!Tourskin 18:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Yup. I've been watching the Persian Wikipedia inching closer to 25,000 for a few weeks now. As of this writing it's three articles short, so it will probably pass the mark today. —Verrai 19:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
It's there now. (25,004 at the moment.) GracenotesT § 02:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
It would be nice if someone would update it then :) Grats to the Persian wiki ;D 86.137.28.211 11:20, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

BS - alert

Contrary to the picture on the front page about "Ensay" - IOSA (pronounced "eesuh") is the Gaelic for Jesus. "Ensay" has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus. Please remedy this, this is the kind of thing that makes wikipedia a laughing stock. --MacRusgail 15:11, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

User:Howcheng was the admin who created that PotD setup. I'm not sure if he's the one who wrote the caption, but perhaps you should contact him. Leebo T/C 15:18, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
It originates from the article itself, I think. Beautiful picture, wrong etymology. Thanks for the tip. --MacRusgail 15:26, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I see you have corrected it in the article. It didn't have a source before, so it's irresponsible to put unsourced info on the Main Page. Hopefully there's a reason for the mixup. Leebo T/C 15:29, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Next time, please use WP:ERRORS near the top of this talkpage. Response is usually quicker there. Thanks. --PFHLai 05:00, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Simple English?

Greeting. I'm a new user and I have some doubts. I know this isn't the appropiate page for this question, but I can't find any other place for this: Which is the difference between the English Wikipedia and the Simple English Wikipedia? Twicemost 00:39, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

It is posted on the "What to do" section of the Main Page of the Simple English Wikipedia: "Use easy words and shorter sentences. This allows people with little English to read them". In other words, the Simple English Wikipedia is for non-native English speakers who are still learning the language – a very important language in the business world and the Internet. Thanks. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 00:47, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Simple:Wikipedia:Simple_English_Wikipedia should reveal all. --Rehcsif 00:52, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Simple English is English thats, well, simple. Were else Wikipedia en. is just English. Tourskin 03:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Templates look different

Has anyone else noticed that some templates look a lot different? Like they once had color in the background but don't anymore? -Sox207 19:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, see Template:Ambox. — Malcolm (talk) 19:37, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Why are you guys changing the templates??? They are ugly now!--Edgesales1 21:47, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I suggest you discuss this in the appropriate place where it's already being discussed Wikipedia talk:Article templates. Also you might want to read why first as it's explained in Wikipedia:Article templates as well as in all the discussions that have already taken place Nil Einne 22:09, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

a new design for this page

do you think there will be a new design for this page ? ever. just wondering looks good though. Isfaner 21:18, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

This has been discussed many, many times, including right now on this very page. -Elmer Clark 21:44, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

technical difficulties with images

Note

Chya! No kidding! Don't you the red "x"s where images used to be? :-p--Angel David 19:45, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Message at top

"The Wikimedia servers encountered technical difficulties earlier this week, and as a result, some images may not display properly. To correct this, click the image to see the description page, and purge the cache"

HOw do you get rid of this? I only need to see it once but now its stuck at the stop of every article and its getting annoying. 71.112.230.231 00:02, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Major errors with English wikipedia, images are not showing up, where can I report this or what should I do?

Would someone please try tell me what is going on with images on English wikipedia. A large number aren't showing up, and the editing toolbar doesn't work at all. This is a serious problem which is not just affecting my computer, as an earlier post on this page of a few days earlier claimed such problems as well. User:R-41 (sorry I can't sign my post properly as the toolbar doesn't work at all)

Go to the pump, if you like. --199.71.174.100 03:40, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

SVG

I cannot see SVG images in the Wikipedia pages. --HybridBoy 08:39, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Flags are invisible. Would the problem persist for a long time? --Howard the Duck 12:39, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
In theory the problem is supposed to be already fixed. Trying clearing your cache and if that doesn't help, try purging (remember to purge on commons if the image is from the commons). For further info, check out WP:VPT (multiple discussions) and Commons:Commons:VP Nil Einne 14:17, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

On this day monotony

Is there a reason that only battles and military conflicts are mentioned in this section (with one exception)? Surely human history has been more varied than this, and Wikipedia should give examples of how interesting and diverse it has been? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.57.231.147 (talk) 02:02, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

3 out of 5 of them are about battles; there are two exceptions. It just so happens that several significant battles took place on this date (and 3 out of 5 isn't really that overwhelming anyway). Not much to be done about it, really, unless you think some of the battles aren't important enough for the section. -Elmer Clark 02:39, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Alternatively if you can think of something more important that happened on this day with an existing article of resonable standard then you're welcome to tell us so we can consider it. However from a brief look at other events there doesn't seem to be anything that major Nil Einne 08:31, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Surely human history has been more varied than this, but who keeps a record of what happened when? Winners of wars write history and the date of their glorious moments get recorded in official documents. Centuries later, these are the moments -- with confirmed dates -- get to appear on OTD. Many milestones in history have to be left out of OTD because the date cannot be confirmed. If you don't like battles on OTD, blame the military historians over the centuries for doing such a good job. Also blame people in Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history for their job well done in wikipedia. --74.14.22.10 18:46, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Good points, Nil and User 74.14.22.10. Tourskin 22:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Add an article

Why doesnt anybody adding the saigon inferno article....

http://vietnamnews.vnanet.vn/2004-06/12/Stories/06.htm http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/summary_0199-2798725_ITM http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2372201.stm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.71.211.66 (talk) 11:35, 15 September 2007 (UTC)


http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%E1%BB%A5_ho%E1%BA%A3_ho%E1%BA%A1n_ITC —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.71.211.66 (talk) 11:37, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you? Nil Einne 12:41, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Lol, dont bite the newcombers . Tourskin 00:23, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
That wasn't biting. Nil Einne 06:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Mmm. It was just nibbling. Tourskin 07:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Instead of posting requests for article creation here (a wrong place), please go to Wikipedia:Articles for creation. You may also want to leave a note of the usertalkpage of members on Wikipedia:WikiProject Vietnam to discuss articles about Vietnam. Hope this helps. --PFHLai 18:24, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Why isnt anybody adding the article?

I am new so i dont know how to make an article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.71.211.66 (talk) 13:16, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Your first article. Do note that if you register it will be somewhat easier as remarked on that page. Also try checking out the links at the top as this is not the place for general help Nil Einne 19:18, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200211/02/eng20021102_106131.shtml

http://english.people.com.cn/200210/30/eng20021030_105915.shtml

http://www.theage.com.au/cgi-bin/common/popupPrintArticle.pl?path=/articles/2002/10/29/1035683417143.html

http://www.cathnews.com/news/211/19.html

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/10/30/vietnam.fire/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.71.211.66 (talk) 13:32, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

The Northwest Passage...

...isn't listed on the news? It is a wake-up call to the world. I needs to be there. It was bumped, while the death of a racer is left? Not right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.161.149.136 (talk) 23:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

WP:ITN/C -Elmer Clark 01:57, 18 September 2007 (UTC)st
I'm confused. The Northwest Passage item was added at 18:45 UTC, but the IP comments about it not being there at 23:25. Is the comment about the placement? Items on ITN are placed in the order that the events they describe occurred. The ESA made the announcement about the Northwest Passage on Sept. 15, so the item about it is placed below the Thai plane crash and the Greek election results, which took place on the 16th. What's the problem here? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:48, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
I guess I didn't see it. Sorry. 72.161.149.136 13:08, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Question

What are the consequences for deliberately defacing articles on Wikipedia? Is there a way to stop users from mis-using Wikipedia? Can you be sued for defametory stuff or tracked down? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.112.230.242 (talk) 07:24, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Go to WP:VANDAL, if you like. --199.71.174.100 08:30, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Also see Seigenthaler controversy#Anonymous editor identified and Chris Benoit murder-suicide#Wikipedia controversy for the two most extreme consequences for Wikipedia vandals - one lost his job and the other had his computer seized by the police. Of course, replacing a page with "WIKIPEDIA SUCKS!!!!!!!!" is unlikely to get you into any offline trouble, but it's really kind of pointless. GeeJo (t)⁄(c) • 16:29, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Don't assume for sure though. For example, if you do it from work or school or something of that sort, there is a (fairly small) chance your boss or IT admin might decide to track you down and you could find yourself at the very least receiving a warning, depending on your companies/school's internet usage policy. The point is vandalism is clearly against wikipedia's policies and particularly if it is repeated after warnings it's rather likely it will be against many companies and schools policies (most likely ISP policies too but I don't think any will act unless it's extreme or they receive a complaint). While it's somewhat unlikely, you could potentially get in trouble for it even if what your doing is only minor (maybe someone in the IT admin or your principal or boss is part of the wikipedia vandalism patrol for example). It's always a dumb idea to assume you won't get in trouble because it's 'just the internet'. Nil Einne 18:28, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Saigon Inferno

Why doesnt anybody adding the saigon inferno article?

http://vietnamnews.vnanet.vn/2004-06/12/Stories/06.htm

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/summary_0199-2798725_ITM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2372201.stm

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200211/02/eng20021102_106131.shtml

http://english.people.com.cn/200210/30/eng20021030_105915.shtml

http://www.theage.com.au/cgi-bin/common/popupPrintArticle.pl?path=/articles/2002/10/29/1035683417143.html

http://www.cathnews.com/news/211/19.html

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/10/30/vietnam.fire/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2447013.stm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.71.211.66 (talk) 13:34, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you start adding? Why don't you read #Add an article above and the instructions at the top of this page? --74.14.16.254 18:44, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

http://www.csa.cz/en/news/news_tz_data/tz_14092007.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.71.211.66 (talk) 14:22, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

You mentioned this two days ago - feel free to update the logo yourself... remember, this is "the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit". Also, Talk:Czech Airlines would be the most appropriate place to discuss this. Fakelvis 14:53, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Main page header

Hi I am mostly happy with the front page but is there anyway we could boost the header a little more like Wikipedia:Main Page alternative (executive) ? but of course change it to 2,013,561 articles in english ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 14:35, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Ug, I doubt you'd find much support for using an executive style header Nil Einne 23:16, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Czech Airlines

Czech Airlines have new logo http://www.novinky.cz/ekonomika/ceske-aerolinie-maji-nove-logo_122693_k0a6s.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.71.211.66 (talk) 13:36, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

...why are you telling us this? -Elmer Clark 20:12, 16 September 2007
I presume the IP is requesting that someone upload a new image of the logo to replace the one at Czech Airlines. Not really a Main Page issue, but I'm sure someone can handle it :) GeeJo (t)⁄(c) • 20:44, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Please change the logo of czech airlines(UTC)

Why isnt anybody changing the logo? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.71.211.66 (talk) 13:46, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps because you posted it in an entirely inappropriate place? Try Talk:Czech Airlines. Modest Genius talk 21:46, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
 Done -- lucasbfr talk 17:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

bomb in prague

A bomb just exploded in Prague! 215 people were seriously injured! Why isnt it in main news? http://www.novinky.cz/krimi/z-autobusu-mhd-v-praze-vyslehly-plameny_122782_9krrd.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.71.211.66 (talk) 14:11, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

ITN isn't updated by magic. Feel free to make suggestions at WP:ITN/C.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 14:31, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Also wikipedia isn't about news. You might want to check out Wikinews:Main Page which is about news Nil Einne 23:18, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
I can't find anything about this Prague 'bomb' on the news. From the look of the picture on that website link, it looks like the engine of a 'bendy bus' caught fire. See a similar story here. I don't understand Czech at all, but the "215" bit is only mentioned at the start of the article, so it is unlikely to be a casualty count. Carcharoth 21:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I tried a machine translation [1] which didn't really shed any light on the 215 bit but it seems to suggest no one was wounded Nil Einne 21:52, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
My guess it is the bus number, or the number of passengers. Reviewing the contribs of the IP who posted this, they are working on disaster articles. Quite why they thought this was a bomb that injured 215 people, I don't know. I'm going to assume good faith and point them at Category:Disasters and Wikipedia:WikiProject Disaster management. Reviewing those contribs also led me to do a few edits as well, so that's good. Carcharoth 22:07, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Templates

I don't like the way that templates have been reorganised so that they dont have their boxes and colors anymore; its hard to differentiate between article text and templates --Hadseys 18:50, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

This page is for discussing the Main Page. Your comment might be more constructive at a talk page for the new templates. See Template talk:Ambox. Leebo T/C 18:57, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
No it was a Wikipedia-wide thing, remember "MediaWiki is encountering some problems, templates may not appear correctly." or something like that. I noticed it before the notice went up. -Sox207 19:26, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm not seeing any problems with templates right now. The only thing I could think of is the article template standardization project. If such a problem existed with MediaWiki, it's fixed. Hadseys, can you clarify? Leebo T/C 19:35, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure he meant them using Template:Ambox. I agree, I hate the way templates look now. They're very dull and stupid looking.--Boatgoodso1 19:37, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the solid red/blue background made the templates more noticeable than they are now. This could easily be implemented in {{ambox}} in a matter of minutes. A suggestion to this effect would belong on template_talk:ambox or else WP:VP/P. --dab (𒁳) 20:06, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

There is already extensive discussion in Wikipedia talk:Article message boxes. I believe the reason the background colour was removed because it's difficult for people with low visibility to read and because it's been argued they look horrible when you have multiple templates. Nil Einne 23:14, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
it's supposed to look horrible. It usually means that the article is horrible. --dab (𒁳) 10:40, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Chile's Armed Forces Day

In the Armed Forces Day page, Chile is not mentioned, but it shows up on the main page? That's a little odd. Cww 03:15, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Pls see Public holidays in Chile. It's there. --74.13.124.95 04:29, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
No but if u wanna add it in to the other article than do so. Tourskin 19:40, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

DYK/SA

According to DYK's guidlines, 5-8 entries are permitted per day, and I'm seeing 9 right now. SA says a max of 5 is allowed and there are 6. It makes the main page look rather cluttered when both of those sections are soo long. Mbisanz 04:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

The TFA paragraph today is also very, very long. --74.13.124.95 04:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
This is a very frequent problem in trying to "balance the main page" so the overall text on both the right and left columns "balance out" so there is no excessive empty spacing. This especially happens when some admins use a wide screen 1280×1024 monitor display resolution setting or higher while other users use an 800x600 setting or lower. Which do you use on your computer monitor? Zzyzx11 (Talk) 07:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Of course, you are not the first to mention this before. iirc, the last time it was discussed, someone proposed that there should be the same size limit on all four main page boxes, but with the usual historical inertia regarding any major changes on the main page, nothing got done (see the archived discussion). Zzyzx11 (Talk) 07:28, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
It's very neat & tidy now. Thank you. --74.14.18.168 13:08, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, much better today. I remember seeing the debate on set boxes, and I think the solution is more limiting the number of DYK/OTDs put on the page, rather than the space they take up. Mbisanz 01:19, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

YARR!

I find it hard to believe that Wikipedia isn't commemorating International Talk Like a Pirate Day today... where's that shopped picture of Jimbo in a pirate outfit on the helm of the good ship 'Pedia (hint hint)? Yes, I do realise that it's ineligible for OTD but can't we do something? :D —Vanderdecken∴ ∫ξφ 08:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

If you carry out an action which is ITN worthy (e.g. commit mass murder) which somehow is related to Talk Like a Pirate Day you may make it but hurry, you're running out of time Nil Einne 11:34, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
It be time for a keelhaulin'! Capuchin 11:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I think it more likely that Vanderdecken is referring to the fact that it is not listed at 'On this Day' as one of the holidays, although it is at the 19th September page itself. Ygoloxelfer 12:53, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't think so since Vanderdecken specifically said he's aware it doesn't qualify for OTD. My suggestion is really the only option that won't violate policy IMHO. There's only about 4.5 hours left so hurry Nil Einne 19:33, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Try expanding the page 5X with happenings on TLaP Days in previous years. This might be good for DYK. But you should have done this 4 days ago. Maybe too late now. Try again on September 15, 2008. --74.14.18.168 13:06, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the page is far too long and old to ever qualify for DYK. Leebo T/C 19:42, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Then start working it into a featured article for an appearance on the main page on 19 September 2008. --74.14.20.83 05:24, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
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