Talk:Ohrana

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See archived talk page of former article at Uhrana: Talk:Ohrana/Uhrana

Jingby

I suggest we concentrate on several things: 1) you must avoid usage of the word "Grecoman", for it is offensive to many Greeks, and i agree with that it is offencive. 2) Second, Ohrana militia never attacked the peaceful "Grecomans" (better say pro-Greek Slavophones), Vlachs and Pontians. Vlachs had their own colaborationist organization organized by the Italians - they called themselves centurions. 3) As for this privatly made ease - [IMRO Militia And Volunteer Battalions 1943-1944 http://www.makedonskatribuna.com/IMRO.doc] which is filled with hatread and xenophobia, the rules stated in Wikipedia:Reliable sources, and better here: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Extremist_sources say that these things can not be used as a reliable source. BUT still I am not against using it as an external link, even as an reference, but we mustn't say Grecomans, or that "ohrana attacked grecomans". Ohrana only attacked communists. 4) Neither Ohrana, nor the Macedonian Committee in Kastoria organized newspapers or schools in Bulgarian. Schools in Bulgarian were organized only in the Bulgarian occupied zone of east Greek Macedonia and West Thrace. 5) IMRO seeded to exist in the late 30's when the Bulgarian government banned the organization and destroyed the infrastructure of the organization in Pirin district of Bulgaria. So Ohrana and the Kastorian committee were created by the Bulgarian Thessaloníki club, which was adherent to the Bulgarian High Command, former IMRO members only supported the effort but did not do nothing else than support. Please consider these things - nevertheless the article is neutral. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 16:41, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

First of all

The one who wrote it doesn't know english.I mean i corrected at least 20 grammatical or syntax mistakes.Secondly is not balanced.We speak about the "Ustashe" of Bulgarians here.The fact that Kalcev and his family left Greece under the treaty of Neilly which saw 50,000 Greeks moving from Bulgaria also is described as "leaving persecution" , ELAS a communist anti-nationalistic movement who was battling Germans Italians and other Royal Greek or collaboratives is described as having a nationalistic agenda!!!!!!!! of massacring poor villagers when even a kid-historian nows that ELAS was in favor at least at first of a separate Macedonian state and secondly it was comprised by Slavomakedonians also.

Bulgarian occupation and the retaliation which provoked isn't discussed.We have 5,000 massacred in Drama we have executions of Greek civilians, deportation, prohibition of Greek language, killing of priests, ethnic cleansing (100,000 Greeks were forced to leave Bulgarian occupied Thrace).We have an organization here which functioned as the servant of Nazis which was envisaging a puppet state under Germans and was armed by Nazis in order for them not to spend soldiers against Greek resistance.In contrast here these people who threw their guns and run for their lives the moment their protectors abandoned them are described as missionaries.

The sources are nationalistic Bulgarian sites.Shame on you Nazi-lovers. Eagle of Pontus (talk) 14:32, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• First point: you lose. Second point: don't try to pretend that the Greeks are innocent here. While I disagree with showing the Ohrana only in a positive light, showing them as Nazi war criminals who committed atrocities against the harmless Greeks is POV. Do you actually think that Greeks of that period should be role models for human rights? Both sides of any war have breached human rights many times throughout history. BalkanFever 10:30, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

What's really the point of your answer?You don't answer to anything just the good old revisionist arguments.Nazis weren't that bad as Allies committed crimes too!!!!!!Yea its about time to try to offset the laws of Metaxas regime (a dictatorship neither popular nor saint) which were discriminating (and yes i disagree with them), with the killings deportations and oppression of Nazi's and their Bulgarian puppets in occupied Greece!That would be funny if it wasn't tragic!

They were formed under Nazis, they committed war crimes, they collaborated with occupiers they attacked unarmed civilians and they were routed by the communists of ELAS.It's not about role models it's about facts here (and in some occasions like the treaty of Neilly it's about hiding facts also).

PS:I suppose Godwin's Law applies to discussions unconnected with Nazis not in this case where Nazis is the topic of the article!Especially when we have to do with some nationalists who try to make them look like saints. Eagle of Pontus (talk) 12:37, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

The Greeks probably weren't as bad as the Nazis, but they weren't good. It's that simple. I made absolutely no revisionist statements whatsoever. You must be confused: Ohrana is the topic of this article. One could argue that Ohrana were not Nazis, merely aligning themselves with the Nazis because it was beneficial to them. But that is not my point here - I really don't have much of an opinion either way. My point is Ohrana = bad while Metaxas = good is nationalist POV. If you want to add sources for the massacres go ahead. BalkanFever 10:25, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Strange edit

Sorry to interrupt, but I stumbled upon a really strange edit on my watchlist. Am I mistaking or did this edit actually remove a reference to Poulton, Danford and other third-party scholars with a piece by someone Ioannis Koliopoulos, taken from the website http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr. I cannot help it but feel something might be wrong here. Any explanation on the issue at hand?--Laveol ^T 23:24, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Falsification of references

I've reverted this part [[1]] , which falsifies the references and assumes that Slav populations in 1940s Greek Macedonia were pro Bulgarian& willing to collaborate. 1. Woodhouse speaks about the average view of the Slav population in all of Macedonia, which is irrelevant in this article, because Ohrana was active only in non Bulgarian occupied Greek Macedonia, where only a small minority compared to Vardar Macedonian Slavs lived (they were not collaborators contrary to Slavs in Vardar Macedonia which were willing to collaborate indeed). 2. Poulton speaks about entire Greek Macedonia (including Bulgarian occupied zones), whish does also not coincide with Ohrana's field of action.

Nevertheles, both authors do not speak about populations that were willing to collaborate. Off course we should be carefull when labbeling a community as collaborators by using wrong edit summaries and restoring falsified content.Alexikoua (talk) 09:33, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

I think, my edit was neutral and balanced both redactions: yours and that, before your edit. Also the text is properly sourced. Chack again, please. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 09:50, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

...Bulgarians were greeted from the greater part of the Slav-speakers as liberators. - Loring M. Danforth. The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World. Princeton, N.J.: Princeton University Press, 1995. ISBN 978-0-691-04357-9.p. 73. At that time most of them felt themselves to be Bulgarians - The struggle for Greece, 1941-1949, Christopher Montague Woodhouse, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2002, ISBN 1850654921, p. 67. Only a small part espoused a pro-Hellenic feelings. - Who are the Macedonians? Hugh Poulton. C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 1995, ISBN 1850652384,p. 109. The same year, The German High Command approved the foundation of a Bulgarian military club in Thessaloníki. The Bulgarian organised supplies of food and provisions for the Slavic-speaking population in Greek Macedonia, aiming to gain the hearts and minds of the local population that was in the German- and Italian-occupied zones. The Bulgarian clubs soon started to gain support among parts of the population. In 1942, the club asked assistance from the High Command in organising armed units among the Slavic-speaking population in northern Greece. For this purpose, the Bulgarian army, under the approval of the Commander of the German forces in the Balkans - Field Marshal Wilhelm List sent a handful of officers from the Bulgarian Army, to the zones occupied by the Italian and German troops (central and west Greek Macedonia) to be attached to the German occupying forces as "liaison officers". All the Bulgarian officers brought into service were locally-born Macedonians who had immigrated to Bulgaria with their families during the 1920s and 30's as part of the Greek-Bulgarian treaty of the Neuilly which saw 90,000 Bulgarians migrating to Bulgaria from Greece and 50,000 Greeks moving the opposite direction. Most were members of pro-Bulgarian IMRO and followers of Ivan Mihailov and envisioned a Greater Bulgaria as had almost came into fruition during the Treaty of San Stefano.These officers were given the objective to form armed Slavophone militias...

The whole text added above, together with the reliable sources aws deleted. Why? Jingiby (talk) 10:46, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

I have some objections on the wording, for example Laurin claims (on the cited page): [[2]] "during World War II and the Greek Civil war that followed, the Slavic-speaking inhabitants of Greek Macedonia, many of whom had probably still not developed a strong sense of national identity, were confronted with a stark choice..." This is in complete contradition with what's in the article: "At that time most of them felt themselves to be Bulgarians.".Alexikoua (talk) 10:48, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Check "The struggle for Greece, 1941-1949" from Christopher Montague Woodhouse, on p. 67 he wrote: most of them felt themselves to be Bulgarians Jingiby (talk) 10:58, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

By the way, in September 1942 Christopher Montague Woodhouse was parachuted to mainland Greece as the Second-in-Command of the Harling Force. Following the success of this operation Myers and Woodhouse were ordered by SOE Cairo to stay on in mainland Greece and form the British Military Mission. After Myers' dismissal at the request of the Foreign Office in July 1943, Woodhouse became the head of the British Military Mission in Greece. Jingiby (talk) 11:03, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

There is another error about Laurin, on p. 73 he states: "While some of these people did greet the Bulgarians as liberators particularly in eastern and central Macedonia (which was under Bulgarian occupation), this campaign was less successful in German-occupied western Macedonia." Seems a rewording is necessary here.Alexikoua (talk) 11:39, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Off course this happened on Vardar Macedonia, per Rudometof [[3]]Alexikoua (talk) 11:42, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

I did not find any errors. According to Hugh Poulton "Who are the Macedonians?", only a small faction of these people espoused a pro-Hellenic feelings. Jingiby (talk) 12:04, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

My obection, as stated above, is that Laurin doesn't claim that Bulgarians were received as liberators, in fact it happened the oposite:

Laurin p. 73	Article (wrongly cited by Laurin p. 73)
While some of these people (i.e. Slavophone) did greet the Bulgarians as liberators, particularly in eastern and central Macedonia, this campaign was less successful in German-occupied western Macedonia. Many of the Slavic speakers who did declare	In 1941 Greek Macedonia was occupied by German, Italian and Bulgarian troops. The Bulgarians occupied the whole of Eastern Macedonia and Western Thrace, where they were greeted from the greater part of the Slav-speakers as liberators

Hope that it's more than clear now that the sentence is a product of source flaisification.Alexikoua (talk) 16:52, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

What do you want to tell us. Check here, please: The loyallity to the Greec state failed when it collapsed in April 1941...p. 60. Plundered Loyalties: Axis Occupation and Civil Strife in Greek West Macedonia, 1941-1949, Giannēs Koliopoulos, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 1999, ISBN 185065381X, p. 60. Jingiby (talk) 18:43, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

He does not say a word that Bulgarian occupation forces have been greated as liberators in general. Same stuff with Poulton (he claims only that Bulgarian policies tried to take them with their side).Alexikoua (talk) 19:26, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

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