Talk:Otto IV, Holy Roman Emperor

Birthplace

I removed the previous birthplace, as per what I read in the source given. --'''Attilios''' (talk) 12:01, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Excommunication date

I have a book here (The Two Cities, Barber, 2004) that lists Otto's excommunication as of 1210, just as he entered Sicily. Any thoughts? --12:59, 7 November 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.80.178.252 (talk) Hampe (Germany under Salian and Hohenstaufen Emperors, 1973) writes, "When Otto crossed the frontier [of Italy] in November 1210 with a large army, Innocent at once excommunicated him." I have seen the Barber also, and due to Hampe's greater precision and specific focus on the German Emperors rather than a general survey of Medieval Europe, I would be inclined to side with him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.76.7.209 (talk) 22:36, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Bizarre claim

"Otto became a friend of Richard I of England, who attempted to make him Earl of York in 1190, and, through marriage with Margaret, king of Scotland.[6] Both attempts failed, "

Was it not possible for King Richard to have appointed Otto as Earl or York ? Was the approval of anyone else required for this ? I think not. So how did the attempt "fail" ?? Eregli bob (talk) 08:39, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Typically, international politics of this time in Europe were very often sealed by a marriage between nobility of the states involved, so, no, the English peers probably would have wanted to see a compact of marriage to appoint a duke. 104.169.35.251 (talk) 23:58, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Cause of death

Was he "beaten bloodily to death", or "died of disease". Both are claimed, in the course of one sentence.122.59.213.223 (talk) 01:37, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

I agree. This is a significant problem in this article. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:51, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

I looked at the german language article which makes no claim about being beaten to death but that he died of diarrhea. Sadly uncertain if that is sourced there as the german wiki usually has much weaker sourcing. Perhaps even lesser requirements. Anyway, it may be in citation 131 in the german language article (german language source). But i sadly have no time to track that down at the moment. When was the beating death added by the way? 80.138.66.157 (talk) 16:14, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Came here to say this. Leaving satisfied that you wonks are on it. 174.230.131.163 (talk) 16:37, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

This actually turns out to be somewhat of a mytery. @Dweller:, could you give the article on Ernst Kantorowicz a read, or particularly the 3rd and 4th paragraphs in 'career', and give your thoughts on the suitability of the book mentioned in that article. The same book used in this article to source the beating death. While his later career seems to have been uncontroversial from what i gathered, reading about the book used as a source here is not very confidence inspiring. The author, despite being part jewish, was part of ultra-nationalist German circles in his younger days, ie when he wrote the book. Coupled with some other statements made about the book in the article of Kantorowicz... is it even a reliable source of just fringe writing? 2003:D6:2729:FF5A:18F7:C82E:F8DA:53E (talk) 17:52, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

"Came here to say this. Leaving satisfied that you wonks are on it."

I cam here here to say that too but it doesn't look like anyone has done anything about it since 2019. It's a bit embarrassing that such an obvious error gets left uncorrected for so long, even more so when it gets put on the front page today ('on this day'). In an attempt to be helpful, I;m going to add some add something to the effect that 'sources dispute the cause of death'. BobBadg (talk) 18:05, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• OttoIVgb.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:07, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Date of coronation

Was Otto's coronation as Holy Roman Emperor on 4 October or 21 October? It seems the latter date has been used for most of this article's history, on the authority of Abulafia's New Cambridge Medieval History (1999, p. 131).

However, according to a footnote in Alexander's Three crises in early English history (1998, p. 123), it was October 4th, and an edit was made to reflect this (although not in the infobox) early last year.

Obviously both of these dates can't be correct. I have changed it back to the 21st, given that seems to be the date reflected in most online sources, and the Cambridge Medieval History does seem in my opinion (for what that's worth) to be a work of slightly greater scholarly authority, but having tracked down both cited works, neither seems to give a source for either of the two dates. Is anyone able to find any primary sources to verify which date is correct? Katechon08 (talk) 20:40, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I see 4 October date much more. Its on the German Wiki and in the NDB. See GBooks. Otto did make a solemn promise on that date (primary source). Srnec (talk) 01:20, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Merge proposal

It seems reasonable to merge the stub June 1198 imperial election to this page, for context. Klbrain (talk) 17:27, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

I would rather merge it with March 1198 imperial election into a single article on the double election. Srnec (talk) 21:23, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree. 2601:43:0:36:0:0:0:65 (talk) 10:08, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Given that 1198 Imperial election already redirects to German throne dispute#The double election, can I suggest that the March and June pages should merge there too, for the reasons of short text and context? Klbrain (talk) 18:24, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

  Y Merger complete. Klbrain (talk) 10:57, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Doesn't make sense to me to have March 1198 imperial election redirect to the electee and June 1198 imperial election to an article on the dispute. Given the length of German throne dispute#The double election, I think there is clearly enough material for an article on the double election specifically. Srnec (talk) 18:32, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

End of reign

@VFF0347: According to Van Cleve, The Emperor Frederick II of Hohenstaufen, Otto "clung tenaciously to his imperial title, defending to the last his right to wear the crown." Many other works could be cited that give his regnal dates as 1209–1218. The body of the article says nothing about his abdication/deposition. Paul Pixton, The German Episcopacy, explains that a papal council deposed Otto in 1212 and confirmed Frederick II's election in 1215. Srnec (talk) 02:12, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

@Srnec: I guess that his reign is disputed. Perhaps abdicated is the wrong word, but I notice in the article in the section titled "Conflict with Innocent III" that it says "Because Otto was forced again to withdraw to his private possessions around Brunswick, this defeat allowed Frederick to take Aachen and Cologne, and so Otto was deposed in 1215." with the Encyclopedia Britannica cited as a source. Perhaps you want to correct that also noting somewhere in the article that his reign is disputed. VFF0347 (talk} 02:45, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Otto II, Holy Roman Emperor which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 22:32, 27 February 2024 (UTC)