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Template:Did you know nominations/Ecclesia Athletic Association

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Flibirigit (talk) 02:33, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

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Ecclesia Athletic Association

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  • ... that the Ecclesia Athletic Association, who promoted its children being able to do 1,000 to 5,00 continuous jumping jacks, had 53 children removed from its care in 1988? Source: a pamphlet that also noted that the youths "can do between 1,000 and 5,000 continuous jumping jacks & 42 of the 53 quiet and well-behaved youngsters who stayed there were subjected to ritualistic floggings that sometimes numbered as many as 800 strokes. The children, ranging in age from 6 weeks to 16 years, were removed from the home are from [1]

Created by Barkeep49 (talk). Self-nominated at 15:39, 1 October 2018 (UTC).

  • I'll defer the DYK review to another user, but I think a new hook may need to be proposed here Barkeep49, as it seems a bit obtuse and the relationship between the second and third clauses is not intuitive. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 10:51, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
@Narutolovehinata5: I would welcome alternatives. I think the jumping jacks thing is the most "wow" fact in the article but it was also a cult who abused children and think that the group shouldn't be glorified. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 14:58, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
I have references to it being a cult and a child athletic training organization if that helps. The MOS:FIRST where you took that from does not have inline citations at this time. Would this work using the original two sources and cites? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 23:34, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
  • @Barkeep49: don't you think ALT1 is hookier? It will probably get a lot more hits than ALT2. Yoninah (talk) 12:21, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
I do. It might be the best sentence I've written on Wikipedia. But you tell me if it follows the rules. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 14:02, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
  • It does, if you source the "cult masquerading as a child athletic training organization" part. Yoninah (talk) 15:09, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
  • I am currently using it as a summary, or in the phrasing of the MOS as a generality. Their being a cult is well sourced, as is their being an athletic training organization, as is criticism of them. In general I try to avoid writing statements that need ih-line sourcing in the LEAD let alone MOS:FIRST. I think adding an inline source for that sentence makes the article worse for the sake of making a better DYK. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:48, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Well, if it's only in the lead and not anywhere else, it must be sourced. Yoninah (talk) 21:01, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Which is why I didn't use it as a hook in the first place :). How about:
ALT3: ... four members of the Ecclesia Athletic Association were charged with enslaving children under the Thirteenth Amendment of the United States Constitution? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:02, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
    1. Please source the statement in the lead that the cult was "masquerading" as an athletic organization, or change the wording.
    2. You're going to lose a lot of pageviews by taking out "cult". And the 5,000 jumping jacks added a lot.
    3. ALT3 is too U.S.-centric if you're trying to attract a broad readership.
  • Have you ever heard of the journalistic maxim "Show me, don't tell me"? "Showing" is using descriptive language to draw images in the reader's mind. "Telling" is straight facts. Being charged with enslaving children is "tell me". Yoninah (talk) 22:15, 6 November 2018
  • Ok we're now discussing two separate things: the appropriateness of lead sentence, which I think is a content dispute and would like to handle it as such as a talk page discussion, and what would make an effective DYK which we should obviously do here. I agree that jumping jacks is good stuff, I think it being a cult (which is cited as such in headlines in sources used) is an essential piece of context for the organization. So I'm all for using it. I went to the 13th amendment since I thought you were suggesting that the cult and jumping jacks weren't interesting enough. It now appears you're saying something different. Is it merely that it was worded in a show don't tell way? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:27, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
Is it just as simple as ALT4:...that the Ecclesia Athletic Association cult claimed its children were able to do 1,000 to 5,000 continuous jumping jacks? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:37, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
Yes that works for me. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:51, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
  • OK, I spent some time editing the article. Regarding its cult status, I see Broussard denying it and the neighbors claiming it. Can you add some sourced text stating that it actually was a cult? Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 23:44, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
It is sourced in the body beyond the neighbors asking The parents of these children were all members of the cult... which is then sourced to an article describing it as such. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 00:25, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
  • You are not understanding me. Those sentences assume it's a cult. If it's written in a source, please state it in our article. We need a sentence that says something like "According to authorities, Ecclesia was a cult." I am not able to access the Washington Post source to do it myself. Yoninah (talk)
So you want me to write a sentence that says "Ecclesia was described in the media as a cult" and then source it? This is easy enough to do but perhaps I am indeed not understanding you when there is clear evidence that it was described as a cult just by looking at the headlines of the citations present in the article now. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:19, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
No, it doesn't make it a cult if the media calls it that. We need some authoritative source to say it was a cult. If you have no authoritative source, it's an "alleged cult". Yoninah (talk) 17:46, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
I have no objections to ALT4b: ... that the Ecclesia Athletic Association, which claimed its children were able to do 1,000 to 5,000 continuous jumping jacks was an alleged cult? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 08:14, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
  • No. We do not propagate allegations based on what the media thinks. Why don't you just leave it at:
  • Because that seems to give credit to an organization that did abuse children and so we're back to my original proposal, or some variant of it; if that's the direction to go I am obviously fine with that. We (as in Wikipedia) follow what reliable sources tell us. Reliable sources tell us it's a cult. It was referred to as such at the time. It has been referred to as such in academic papers since then. I'm fine leaving it out of the DYK, and hadn't originally proposed it as such, but this isn't some word I am applying based on my personal opinions; I am instead attempting to be responsibly apply NPOV by applying appropriate weight to what RS tell us. What I am insisting on, out of personal opinion, is that we not glorify an organization that abused children and whose abuse led to the death of one. The extreme athletic training is interesting I think to a wide audience, but needs the context that it was achieved through abuse. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:27, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
*@Barkeep49: If you feel that way, it's time for a new hook suggestion.
  • Meanwhile, the article lead is calling the organization a cult, while the article body has the neighbors making this claim and the founder denying it. You cannot call it a cult based on newspaper headlines. You may think that the lead is a content dispute, but I can assure you that the people at WP:ERRORS will jump on this as soon as it's in the queue. If you would like a different DYK reviewer, I'm happy to leave this to them. Yoninah (talk) 22:01, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
My position has been, and remains, that the content of the article beyond the DYK belongs at the talk page for the article as a content dispute beyond the scope of DYK. I appreciate your jumping in there and will respond to what you wrote about cults there. We have gone through multiple distinct ideas here (jumping jacks + abuse, slavery, jumping jacks + cult) and so I admit that we've exhausted the topline grabbers, in my opinion. You are the experienced person here and so I defer to your judgement whether it makes sense to fail this DYK, go to what I think of as a less interesting tier of events (death of Dayna, shoorting of Brinson, one of the members growing up to the Portland Timberwolves DJ (this fact isn't present but the source is), or have a different reviewer. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:27, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
I think you should propose a few more hook ideas, and I'll try to verify them. Yoninah (talk) 18:09, 11 November 2018
ALT 3a ... four members of the Ecclesia Athletic Association were charged with enslaving children in 1991. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:30, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
The four members were charged with manslaughter. The founder and six others were charged with child slavery. Yoninah (talk) 18:37, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
Sorry you are of course correct. Seven were charged with slavery. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:41, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
  • So how about:
  • ALT5: ... that in 1991, the founder of Ecclesia Athletic Association and seven other members were indicted for what a federal prosecutor termed "the largest child slavery ring in the history of the United States"? Yoninah (talk) 19:54, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
Great except I get to be the one to point out this time that it's founder plus six who were indicted. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:57, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Why? Federal prosecutors indicted Broussard, his brother, Chambers, Jackson, and four others for child slavery. Yoninah (talk) 20:03, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
New reviewer needed for ALT5. Yoninah (talk) 15:02, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
  • As I am not an expert on this subject matter, I can only say that I can approve ALT5 as interesting and being cited inline. However, I have concerns about the article itself. One minor issue is with the sentence "Eldridge has been in Los Angeles at the time of his daughter's death"; "has been" should be in past tense. But more importantly, the article seems to be incomplete in some aspects: does information exist on details on exactly how the children were abused? Also, the article describes the group as a cult, but this direct claim is unreferenced; it might be better to instead say that the group was "described as a cult"; I know the nominator has expressed reservations with that wording, but I feel it may be the best option here. As I am uncomfortable actually doing a full review this time, I will leave the rest to another reviewer. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:32, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
@Narutolovehinata5: Some what concurrent with this review, the cult language was removed from the article. As to how the children were abused, the following quotes from the article describe that While investigating the death of Dayna, child welfare officials learned that 42 of the 53 children, all those who were older than five, were subjected to beatings of at least 100 lashes with paddles and an electrical cord and had been scarred. and The children were also regularly forced to go with limited food, sleep on the floor, and share only one or two working bathrooms. The article also further describes their lack of educational achievement and testimony made about beatings at the trial. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:53, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
- Length, Date, Cites, QPQ, and Earwigs check. The above concerns appear to have been rectified and ALT5 is approved. Best, Mifter (talk) 06:22, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
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