The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
... that Evgenia Debryanskaya, the lesbian activist who co-founded the gay rights movement in Russia, was the first wife of Alexandr Dugin, Vladimir Putin's "Rasputin"? Source: "the creepy, enigmatic guru who has been called “Putin’s brain” or, irresistibly, “Putin’s Rasputin”: maverick “political philosopher” Aleksandr Dugin... Dugin’s first wife and the mother of his son, Evgeniya Debryanskaya, is an out lesbian who started Russia’s first gay-rights group in 1990" (Source: The Bulwark)
ALT1: ... that Evgenia Debryanskaya, the lesbian activist who was part of the establishment of the gay rights movement in Russia, was the first wife of Alexandr Dugin, Vladimir Putin's "Rasputin"? Source: "the creepy, enigmatic guru who has been called “Putin’s brain” or, irresistibly, “Putin’s Rasputin”: maverick “political philosopher” Aleksandr Dugin... Dugin’s first wife and the mother of his son, Evgeniya Debryanskaya, is an out lesbian who started Russia’s first gay-rights group in 1990" (Source: The Bulwark)
I'm surprised this passed as it is, certainly the hooks are not compliant as they stand. The statement that she "started the gay rights movement in Russia" is not in the article, and a claim like that requires strong sourcing. The source has the slightly different claim that she "started Russia’s first gay-rights group", not that she started the whole movement. And even that overemphasises her role, as the article states, the group was founded by 10 people, of which she was one. I'd recommend replacing "who started the gay rights movement in Russia" with an abridged version of the wording in the article - "was part of the establishment of the gay rights movement in Russia". The second hook is also ambiguous with potential subject/object confusion - was it the landlord or Evgenia who was the activist? Spokoyni (talk) 03:03, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
Updated the first hook in response to the above comment. Darwin Naz (talk) 01:46, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Not really, only one of the two hooks has been altered, "co-founded" is not in the article, and still overemphasises her role. The article has "was part of the establishment of the gay and lesbian rights movement" - so what is wrong with "was part of the establishment of the gay rights movement in Russia"? The second hook has not been altered and the ambiguity remains. Spokoyni (talk) 11:58, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
Only one hook is needed and I am partial to the first hook. I stand by "co-founded" as she was part of the movement and not a mere participant or hanger-on. Your suggestion is a bit wordy and I think it muddles the focus of the DYK, which was her being the wife of Dugin, Putin's Rasputin. So to cut everything short, I included your suggestion as Alt1. Let a third party decide, which hook to publish. Darwin Naz (talk) 00:55, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
I strongly oppose the first hook as written. "Co-founded the gay rights movement in Russia" is not in the source or the article and is Wikipedia:SYNTHESIS. There is a difference between co-founding an entire movement, and co-founding a group within that movement. You accept that she was part of the movement yet oppose the wording of "was part of the establishment of the gay rights movement"? How is being "part of the movement" different to being a "participant". If the focus of the hook is to be on Dugin, then why mention her connection to the gay rights movement at all? I'd also strongly oppose a hook that focuses on her being the wife of Dugin, as it conceals her own notability and achievements. I concur on letting a third party select the hook, but I stand by my objections and would bring this up at WP:ERRORS as a inaccuaracy in the hook if it were to make it on the main page with the first hook. Spokoyni (talk) 05:54, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
As to being a participant, somebody who shows up and holds a placard is a participant. The subject is one of the leaders, contributing to the movement not only as a leader of a gay rights group but as a leader in initiatives such as the first pride parade in Russia, film exhibitions, discussions, etc. This is a DYK and I have created a hook that would be interesting so that the page is read. You talk about the hook concealing her notability and achievement yet you object to the word "co-founder" as it over emphasizes her role. As I said, your suggestion is already written as alternative. We have stated our case, so, yes, let the third-party decide which hook to publish. Darwin Naz (talk) 00:50, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
Hey, theleekycauldron. I also like it. The link to Putin and his Rasputin makes the article current as she is no longer an activist. Thanks for contributing! Best regards, Darwin Naz (talk) 07:00, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
If you put "co-founded" instead of "founded" (she was one of 10 people who founded that organization) then that hook is fine with me. Please note that the name and link is to Aleksandr Dugin, and not Alexandr Dugin, per no redirects on the main page. Alexandr Dugin is a half transliteration of Александр Дугин. Spokoyni (talk) 07:41, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
@Darwin Naz: in the article, the only mention of Alexandr Dugin being referred to as Rasputin is cited to an NPR article, but the NPR source, but the source doesn't mention this comparison. Can you supply a source for this in the article? Thanks, Z1720 (talk) 19:01, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
Good catch, I've added the Milken Review article that the Bulwark article mentioned above references, and made it explicit who is making these comparisons. Spokoyni (talk) 20:01, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
Interesting article and a hook with appropriate sourcing. Passed. — Golden call me maybe? 11:54, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
I'm surprised this passed as it is, certainly the hooks are not compliant as they stand. The statement that she "started the gay rights movement in Russia" is not in the article, and a claim like that requires strong sourcing. The source has the slightly different claim that she "started Russia’s first gay-rights group", not that she started the whole movement. And even that overemphasises her role, as the article states, the group was founded by 10 people, of which she was one. I'd recommend replacing "who started the gay rights movement in Russia" with an abridged version of the wording in the article - "was part of the establishment of the gay rights movement in Russia". The second hook is also ambiguous with potential subject/object confusion - was it the landlord or Evgenia who was the activist? Spokoyni (talk) 03:03, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
we'll move forward with the modified ALT2. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 08:46, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
@Darwin Naz: in the article, the only mention of Alexandr Dugin being referred to as Rasputin is cited to an NPR article, but the NPR source, but the source doesn't mention this comparison. Can you supply a source for this in the article? Thanks, Z1720 (talk) 19:01, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
