Hello, Resnjari, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:
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Dear Resnjari, thank you very much for your help in the page about Albanians and for the sources. Your help is highly appreciated. Let me know if there is anything I can help with. Have a good day :) --SilentResident (talk) 08:40, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'll get to that. The decision for Kosovo being admitted into UNESCO is fresh, it will be updatied over the following days anyway. News outlets are reporting on it as we speak so it has to enter the public forum. Probably best non-Albanian editors does the change to that. Give it a week. If its not changed then there will be the UNESCO source itself for it to do a change.Resnjari (talk) 18:36, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I followed up on that. They got through the first round. In Novemeber, they will have a final vote. Actually its best it gets changed when that occurs so there can be no doubt and no edit warring headaches. At the moment refrain from doing any changes. Its only a few weeks anyway.Resnjari (talk) 18:42, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hi,
User:Albanian Historian has created the article about the Uprising of Lumë or Battle of Lumë of 1912. I started just copyediting it, but I got more an more involved since it came out a very interesting article. But it was translated from Alb Wikipedia correspondent article and other sources, so it faces the usual problems. This event is constantly neglected from the Alb historiography for some reason. Can you check for more sources? I will probably ask Zoupan to have a look later and bring sources from the other side, if he doesn't get it already by then. If you're busy, no worries. :)
--Mondiad (talk) 04:56, 10 January 2016 (UTC)@Mondiad:. I did a search for sources and there a few more i need to do (i check for Serbian language ones. Its does not even come up there. I tried words like Ljuma and> bitka, ustanak etc and in their Cyrillic form and nothing came up. I placed a good source for you in the article and its whole inline. Do with it as you wish to tag various sentences to that source and its in line. I do have some backlogs that i need to take care of. i will get to the article as soon as i can. Best.19:19, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Albanian Historian:. Don't take this the wrong way brother, but some things i need to say or going going to run into multiple headaches and issues. If its repeated, you may be referred by other editors to arbitration like forums for a sanction. I prefer you do not end up in these situations, so bear with me with the comments i make. I make them so your important and much appreciated input continues, though meeting the requirements of Wikipedia policy. I wanted to say to you that your edits in certain articles are a bit problematic. You have used Albanian sites in the past that do not meet wp:reliable and wp:secondary. I know that some of these websites do publish academic articles which they have copied and pasted from Albanian academic sources (most often without the publication's or scholar's permission or knowledge). If you are going to use one of these articles, do a google web search (and or through google scholar and google books) to find out and or locate where originally they were published and cite that article or scholarly work by using its original academic citation (so and so journal or so and so book chapter in a edited book by so and so scholar etc). Otherwise your content will be removed, articles deleted at times and allegations from the usual editors (they are a small group, but you know who they are) of "Albanian POV". You also in that instance create a lot of work for other editors to come and clean up and these increases the work load for the very few Albanian editors that are active on English Wikipedia. Anyway, I will cite examples of edits by you in the article about Balkan wars massacres of Albanians [1]. You cite Leo Freundlich. He is a good source as he chronicled massacres and so on. However his works in the end constitute wp:primary and more than likely will be removed. Wikipedia accepts overall wp:secondary material as scholars have done an analysis and synthesis of the primary documentation and have judged the material to be wp:reliable for use in their works. It is these works who cite the primary sources like Freundlich that you use in a article. I will cite for you a example to see. For example i used Mark Levene (2013). Devastation: Volume I: The European Rimlands 1912-1938. Oxford University Press [2] for the Battle of Lumë which make the edits and accompanying edits stick about such issues like massacres. Also do a google search and in scholar ans books to come across such sources to expand and make the article watertight. I would say also to avoid(when the moment and context calls for it) using Albanian sources if an issue/article is controversial and try to find non-Albanian scholarly sources that say roughly the same thing as the non scholarly source. This will assist your position about and deflect the usual accusations of bias directed toward Albanian editors in general. I hope this was of some assistance and keep the good work up !Resnjari (talk) 03:31, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, can you quickly verify that the "no evidence of state persecution" part in Roudometof's book actually exists? Because for some reason it doesn't show up in Google books. And also, what's the context? DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 11:58, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'll look into it and i have the source. Anyway an important thing to note is that Roudementof's claim (in 2002, based not on the Greek state archive i might add) though is obsolete due to Baltsiotis in depth research of the Greek archive in his 2011 study.Resnjari (talk) 03:00, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free to leave any posts there on the things you and I personally discuss. The last thing we need to do is create TLDR for others on a legit talk page with our forum-like posts! :) OJ (talk) 10:48, 31 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hi there, would you be of assistance on the Turkish people article? I have worked really hard to find as many sources as possible for the infobox. But I have continuously been reverted and nobody is having a discussion with me to solve the dispute. What should I do? One of the users has threatened to block me. But I just wanted to correct the figures because they are all distorted. This is what they keep reverting it to [5] and this is my edits [6]. O.celebi (talk) 08:48, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hi O.celebi. I had a look at the edits done by you. The first editor who objected to those edits did so on a reliability of sources reason. The second gave barely any reason. Make sure you do not surpass the 3 revert rule (see: WP:EW) first off as you may be reported and up for discretionary sanctions. No need to have a block blemish on ones Wikipedia account. Apart from this, engage the editors within the talkpage in good faith and always have the sources guide discussion. Make sure the scholarship you have used is WP:reliable and wp:secondary as sometimes certain scholars may be compromised for a variety of reasons. If an impasse continues, then your port of call would probably be the reliable sources noticeboard as the issue is about reliability of scholars and their work in this instance. I hope this helps. Best.Resnjari (talk) 09:22, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your reply. As a Masters graduate from a very respected university, I do believe that I am capable of producing reliable citations. Indeed, I have given various different sources and it has all been removed. Ironically, some of these citations (which they object to using) are incorrectly used in the current version. I am quite shocked at the response that my edits have caused. The current version is clearly a mess and is dominated by users who do not seem to have good objectives. Unfortunately it seems that neither of these users are willing to even discuss the matter. I do not want to be blocked but at the same time I feel that my knowledge and qualifications will be wasted here on Wikipedia. O.celebi (talk) 11:04, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hi O.celebi. Regarding the demographics bit, the editor who replied has a point as some of some of the sources date back from the 1990s and 2000s. You can use those for the Demographics of Turkey article which looks at Turkish demographics from a historical view. I forgot to say yesterday that for demographics related stuff on the Turkish people article, try to locate the most recent publications on certain demographics and look for scholars who whatever is their background/ethnicity have published in peer reviewed publications. Like for me i have access to some number of Albanian scholarship, however for contentious stuff i try to avoid using Albanian scholars and if i do i make sure they have published in Western publications or have their works published thorough a Western based publishing house. This is so as it avoids a lot of unnecessary chit chat on a talkpage about reliability of a source/scholar etc as they have been vetted by a Western source as being reliable. I now how this sounds but is how scholarship is done these days (Edward Said discussed this at length in his book Orientalism). Its good that you have a tertiary background and we need more people like you to edit Wikipedia. Good content and expertise make for better articles in the end. Best.Resnjari (talk) 06:28, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It is great to see that there is someone here who actually understands the concept of Orientalism! I am shocked that this racist concept is being practiced here on Wikipedia. So it seems there is no point in using Arabic sources either? A precedent on using only Western sources seem absurd considering many of these academics have probably not even set foot into the Middle East. O.celebi (talk) 09:23, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
O.celebi, part of my honours thesis touched on orientalism + Gramsci's work on socio-cultural and linguistic hegemony. When Said wrote his analysis, things have moved on somewhat as scholars from the outside have gone to places themselves and a majority now are not armchair types, thank goodness. I probably should have clarified what i meant in regard to Orientalism. Said mentioned that people who come from a Middle eastern/Muslim (or areas formally colonised by the West) background engage in knowledge production for the agendas of others in the centres around the world based in the West, as that is where power (political/economic etc) resides today. Knowledge, its uses and power serve a particular geography/country/people for the aims and intentions not of the scholar who comes from that particular people/locality (and acts as a conduit/informant for others) that that knowledge is being undertaken about. With that in mind my comment in essence was that for a scholar to be viewed as "reliable", etc, he/she would have to have gone through the process of having their work published in something based in Western countries were educational institutions carry a legitimacy above other educational places around the world. So say i use something published in Albania, its usage would be more contested (doesn't mean it wont go into Wikipedia, it just means that i have to spend more time explaining/justifying it) then say if that same scholar published in a Western publishing house or journal etc which gives them the aura of "reliability". By using the latter you avoid more of the complicated discussions about whether a scholar is reliable, etc.
However we also have to keep in mind that some scholarship in say Albania and Turkey is compromised due to government interference, so some scholars need to be double checked that they have no skeletons in the closet (just like a few scholars from the West also get such scrutiny). I know what i say sucks and even the Wikipedia community is aware of this (see: WP:BIAS). I say all of this because i have seen many a editor crash and burn (there are so few Albanian editors around, and even Turkish ones for that matter) and i hope by imparting this advice that the editing process can be made somewhat more durable for you. Otherwise you will become disillusioned after heated exchanges with certain experienced editors as so many have and then some have resorted to edit warring, others to name calling, others even worse to sock-puppeting (see: WP:SOSP). That is unnecessary and in fact they did a disservice by giving a pretext for others to remove them on technicalities. Only the sources should guide discussion (and if needed invoking wiki policy on sources etc), no need to involve other things of ones personal self or others, unless they do so themselves (and then ask them to kindly refrain from doing that). If any personal attack occurs that can go to a noticeboard. However always assume good faith. Best.Resnjari (talk) 12:20, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I understand what you mean. I have a very busy schedule and therefore wouldn't even have time for an "edit-war". I've been respectful and hope that they will show me the same courtesy. I finally heard back from one of the users and have replied back. If you have time, I would appreciate it if you look at what I have to say. Since their main objection seems to be Akar and Soysal, I've asked them whether they will be willing to return it to my edits but removing these two sources as a compromise. Here's hoping I wont be attacked again. O.celebi (talk) 12:51, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I have already read the source you provided, it was a very interesting read!
I am finding the double standards in Talk:Turkish people very frustrating, but I will continue to point this out with sources, when necessary.
I am currently writing up an introduction and an info box in my sandbox. I have taken a look at the Albanians article, and have no objection to including a similar footnote if sources are placed alongside it. If you have time, I would really appreciate it if you have a look at what I have done so far.
I'm thinking that it might also be a good idea to place a footnote stating that Algeria, Libya and Tunisia forbid declaring ethnicity in official censuses (source and footnote). Moreover, I have not included European state censuses because they base their statisics on citizenship not ethnicity (source); in its place, I have looked for estimates regarding people of Turkish origin, which includes naturalised individuals and descendants. I've quoted all the sources.
O.celebi, That looks good. For the infobox, you would need to add a note at the subtitle: "Turkish minorities in the Arab world". It should say something like: > In Arab Middle Eastern and north African countries, Turks are not recognized as a minority. In a post Ottoman environment many of them have been culturally and linguistically Arabized with some retaining a semblance of Turkish heritage. Due to an absence of census data estimates on the remnants of the size of these populations vary. Regarding the scholars population estimates for Arab countries in the Middle East, i would also place the year of when that estimate was given by that scholar, so the reader knows. Play around with it on the sandbox and then i'll have a look. Best.Resnjari (talk) 22:01, 26 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As per the discussion of whether it was only "small numbers" of Albanophone Orthodox that supported the Albanian national movement-- I interpret the "small numbers" here (as I think you do too, as per edit summary) as meaning small proportions in terms of sentiment. We don't have polls of the population from then, obviously, so we will never know who the "majority" supported. I looked in the sources listed and the one that I could get the page for (the others weren't offered for free on Google at the moment) didn't say anything that would suggest that the proportion of Orthodox Albanians supporting Albanian nationalism was "small". Most sources I've seen on this generally speak of the Orthodox population being divided. I'm excluding the nationalist rhetoric on either side, of course, the 'patriotic' Greek Orthodox sources claiming without much verification that all Albanian Orthodox were "Albanophone Greeks" who hated all "Turko-Albanian" Muslims, yearned for Greek rule etc, and also the patriotic Albanian sources that harp on the unique tolerance fetare te Shqiperise and seem to claim that not a single ethnic Albanian regardless of faith supported foreign rule ever (when there were even cases of Catholics who preferred Montenegro and Muslims who were against Albanian independence and supported Turkey).
For a mostly sober (though still clearly Greek in viewpoint) analysis of it, I could drop Psomas: [[7]]. Psomas notes that there was a regional difference among the Orthodox in Albania, whereby the Orthodox of more eastern regions (Korca, Permeti, etc) had a high proportion of Albanian nationalists, including a large number of Rilindas such as the Qiriazis, Mihal Grameno and (I would note) Naum Veqilharxhi, who was writing as early as 1825. So at least for those regions I feel its wrong to say that only "small numbers" supported Albanian nationalism as opposed to Hellenism. Nobody talks about the swathes of Orthodox Albanians in regions outside "Vorioipirus" (Myzeqe, near Elbasan, Berat, Durres...), but I've never seen any evidence whatsoever of Hellenism or lack of Albanian nationalism there either. And even in Psomas' more pro-Greek "Southwestern Albania", it should be noted that the area had large numbers of people who were actually ethnically Greek (who naturally were Hellenists), and there were many Albanian Orthodox nationalists even here-- i.e. Lunxheria may have had Zografos, but they also had the Meksi family, and pretty important rilindasit like Koto Hoxhi and Pandeli Sotiri. Sorry that was long winded. We don't have actual numbers, so what's the point in saying it was only small proportions of Orthodox? --Yalens (talk) 02:45, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yalens, though myself being wary of Greek sources at times, there are a few studies out there that stand out from the pack that are not mired in the usual tropes. Kokolakis did a demographic study looking at the archive and other many primary sources and has been cited by respectable wp:reliable and wp:secondary sources also. His study looked at national affiliations. Though it is not in doubt that the Orthodox Albanian community produced some number of national movement activists (slowly increased over time), they themselves acknowledged that among the people, the sentiments of the Orthodox Albanian speaking population were toward Greek identity or they were indifferent on the issue (see Nitsiakos, Skoulidas, even Skendi, in the Islam in Albania article -the 1800s one, click on the weblinks and follow the page numbers i have placed for those sources). Its why those activists in their works and pronouncements usually go on about stopping hellenisation and the need to have a common brotherhood with Muslim Albanians etc, etc. Nonetheless the population group who first began affiliating and eventually supported the national movement below the Shkumbini river were Muslim Albanian speaking people. What Kokolakis' study notes is that during the time of the Albanian national awakening is that numbers slowly were beginning to affiliate with the Albanian national moment and Greece began to show concern.
Still, it was not a big move and my edit on that was about the relationship of Albanian Muslims with the Albanian Orthodox at that time (have a read of Kokolakis - you can copy and paste pages from the book in google translate if you cannot read Greek. There are a few maps based on good strong data which are also of interest to you as you have made some maps in the past). Psomas' study cites an important factor regarding sentiments. On page 280, Psomas refers to Orthodox Albanian immigrants returning back to the Korca region, who had attained national Albanian sentiments in the USA. This happened after independence until the 1920s that tipped the balance (i.e: also wanting an independent Albanian Orthodox church) and also the inclusion of Orthodox Albanian people in the state literally halting the hellenisation process among the youth at least. Before that it was more pro-Greek and why the Northern Epirot movement had wide geographical spread (all its leaders were from an Orthodox Albanian speaking background except Spiromilos). My edit in the Islam article refers to the pre-1912 situation and sources do not disagree on this. You may come across ones that do. Add them here. Anyway a few articles need to be addressed on wiki that relate to these issues and it would be good to work on them together to make them better. Best.Resnjari (talk) 04:18, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I agree, though I'll be quite busy in general for quite awhile :(. I would argue that the statement by the British diplomats (admittedly half a decade or so after independence) that the younger generations in the "Southwest" were Albanian nationalist in orientation at least partially contradicts this. But I think a much bigger issue is that given the nature of ethnoreligious debates in the Balkans- including between Muslim and Orthodox Albanians. I'm sure I could summon up some puro shqiptar ortodoks to be (perhaps unfairly) outraged that the contributions of Sotiri, Hoxhi, Vreto, Veqilharxhi, Qiriazi and so on are dismissed with their supposed "small numbers", or might bring up the fact the pre-independence pro-Turkish faction of Albanian (Sunni) Muslims that opposed independence (for a quick example-- Skendi, The Albanian National Awakening, p58) and one quite religiously-tinged Muslim pro-"Sultan" revolt in Central Albania (neither of which are mentioned on the page as of yet). All of these identity politics debates miss the point though. I'm not disputing that a majority of Albanian nationalist activists were probably Muslim, or that a portion of Orthodoks in the South were Grecophile, but can we really assert the "smallness" of the Albanist Orthodox faction without hard numbers? Do you have a page to cite for Kokolakis (yes, a Greek), Skendi or Vickers saying specifically that only a small minority of Christian Albanians in the South supported the Albanian movement? for Kokolakis I don't want to go on a multihour page-by-page goose chase with Google Translate and the other two aren't available to me at the moment --Yalens (talk) 05:30, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yalens, on the conservative Muslim inspired uprising, Muslim Albanians opposing Albanian independence and other measures like being against the alphabet and so on, that is cited in the article: Islam in Albania (1913-1944). When i did the trim down a few weeks back creating three additional articles, i moved it to there as the main Islam in Albania article was over 12,000 words. I can add those sentences back covering it if you think their important for the main Islam in Albania article (copy and paste for me here which sentences you think need to go back, i'll do the rest). Identity politics no. Albanian identity as expressed today arose from a complicated process. No need to sideline it. When that happens it opens the door to others doing edits that are problematic at best, you get the jist - i am sure you have had run ins with some over the years. Younger generations starts later, however in the Psomas article that only relates to national consciousness for the Orthodox after 1912 and does not say something about interactions with Muslim Albanians. Thus its only relevant for the Orthodox Albanian church article. I fixed up the small numbers bit to some. There were activists but their emergence starts later and in the USA, Egypt or in the Ottoman regions outside the 4 vilayets. On Kokolakis, on page 370 onward there are a series of maps based on data that Kokolakis has examined, worth checking out. Best.Resnjari (talk) 07:20, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Alright thanks, I'll check that out. With regards to identity politics, on the other hand I think it is still worth discussing for the current era (with an unattached perspective, of course)-- which I think the pages do fairly well already actually, though more could be added on the whole Kadare-Qosja identity controversy which I might do sometime soon (with Babuna, de Rapper, etc.). One thing I can't find is any actual citable sources on what is another contender, at least colloquially, in the debate-- the Albanian secularist-nationalist (or even atheist-nationalist) synthesis which applies the same arguments against both Christianity and Islam that the Christian-national synthesis applies only to Islam (i.e. "oriental", linked to foreigners and therefore suspicious, backwards and also that Albania is the "most atheist" nation of the background and is in Atheist Europe along with the Scandinavians, Czechs and French). Obviously its origin is communism but it seems to have long outlived communism and been transformed by the influence of Western new atheism, and its fairly common to be performed by especially Albanians from the South of either Sunni or Orthodox background... and I swear I've seen it before in literature, but I can't seem to find it today. I mean the modern version of it, not the one imposed during communism (which probably contributed to it, admittedly). If nothing comes to your head, it's fine, just thought you might have an idea who might have written about this. --Yalens (talk) 17:56, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yalens, here is the link of the Islam in Albania article before i did the splits. [8] -makes it easier to look at everything in context. I only went with Qosja-Kadare because their debate was the most prominent, went on for a few years being covered in Albania and their publications making the rounds among the populace. Those two kicked started it with others then adding their input which was controversial not for the reason that it dealt with Islam in a critical way, but the racist language they used (i.e Maks Velo: 'Kosovars are primitive due to being Muslim', 'minarets look the rockets of Iran' etc). The article is about Islam in Albania and no need to make it about debates about Islam in Albania otherwise the article will lose focus. Considering the whole debate in general did take on a quite strongly Islamophobic tinge, if you want we can kick start a article called Islamophobia in Albania and then expand at will all with these debates etc. On the communist perspective, Kadare and those who commented with similar or more controversial language are seen as reflecting the views of the old "Albanian secularist-nationalist (or even atheist-nationalist) synthesis". See Schmidt-Neke p. 15.[9]. Best.Resnjari (talk) 02:49, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! Lovely words aren't they :/. As for an article on Islamophobia, honestly my general observation has been that most of the "anti x-group bigotry" pages (different racisms, anti-national sentiments, sectarian bigotries) generally turn into edit war battlegrounds, due to the emotive nature of the topic and its use in propaganda outside Wikipedia. In the case of Islamophobia in Albania, I would argue a better alternative is to place it within the context of wider interreligious relations. Within this, Islamophobia is one of many relevant dynamics that merits discussion, along with the historical context (communist, Zog, independence, Ottomans), anti-other-group sentiments, historical nad current competition between faiths including Islam over resources (nowadays buildings, historically the Orthodox-Muslim tension in the land reform controversy after independence), and so on. I'm currently working on a general page that discusses the role of religion and other factors in national identity and relevant debates within this realm, in my sandbox. A section on Islamophobia would be a good addition there I think. I may have to drastically reduce its scope from the current state (which also looks at ethnicity, history and language, and has an array of planned sections for the identities of minority groups), however... --Yalens (talk) 03:40, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yalens, I was looking at your suggestions. Perspective and anlaysis wise we coincide on how we look at the issues. You would need though to cut it drastically. I would say your article in the end may end up being challenged and deleted. Reason being editors will say that chunks of it can go into other articles that already exist (as subheadings and sections) and it is a fork. I would say use that sandbox layout as a guide fill up a section on it and then place that section in a existing article adressing shortcomings there. Also on minority thing, Albania doesn't have a indigenous Turkish community. Turks In Albania are there post 1992 ((a few hundred countered in the census). The small number from before going back to the Ottoman era where some clerics and soldiers who married locally and assimilated. Bosniaks in the Shijak region have not been albanized. They are AAlbanian citizens but that is different. They still speak Bosniak as a mother tongue there and its still alive and kicking (see: Stienke and Ylli -got to the demographics section of Islam in Albania and see footnotes). A small group who went to the Myzeqe area linguistically assimilated. In recent times they have accepted Serbia's offer and they receive assistance for the Serbian language classes. The Shijak Bosniaks have of course rejected Serb offers.
Reflecting on the Islamophobia thing you are right. I propose then a different alternative. How about a Orientalism in Albania or Albanian Orientalism article (examples to look for possible structure: Orientalism in early modern France; Black orientalism; Scottish orientalism? For concepts etc see: Orientalism, Orientalism (book), Nesting Orientalisms. We can use Enis Sulstarova to set the parameters of defining the article's scope + framework as a great starting point. Sulstarova has published in wp:reliable and wp:secondary sources in the West and in English too. In his works he traces Orientalism in Albania as basically going back to the 1870s - the Rilindja period going all the way to the Qosja-Kadare thing. The article can basically cover both those (individuals, regions, religious groups etc etc) who had a fascination with the east and those who disliked it now and then. The article's scope would not just encompass the Middle East, but also Asia, mainly China (Enver's relations and cultural influence which has affected Albania's views of Asia (some racist sadly). Best.Resnjari (talk) 14:36, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah I'm fairly familiar with Said's work. I think it could be confusing because at least I've encountered another (older?) definition of "orientalist" in Albanian (and also in English, although this use is long atrophied and irrelevant), meaning someone who prefers ties to and identifies with the "East" (read: Muslim countries). The Said-derived definition is surely also (perhaps more) used in primarily Muslim circles (like ZeriIslam.com). "Occidentalism" can mean the converse, whereas in English it is mainly used as a sort of inverted Orientalism. I suppose it's not that much of a problem in English but sources could possibly get weird on this if we use older texts. If we are going to make a page based on Sulstarova's work, I think also making clear that it is within the conceptual framework of Nesting Orientalisms (or however Sulstarova fits it into Orientalism, I haven't read his works) would be good as per some definitions of Orientalism Albania would not be a legitimate possible "Orientalizer" due to its ambiguous position on the "East-West" dichotomy (for those who believe in a dichotomy...). And then because Orientalism is largely theoretical in nature we wouldn't be able to attribute statements that woul dbe classified as Islamophobic as "Orientalist" unless scholars of Orientalism themselves applied the label (for example) as that would be SYN(so such a page might end up fairly small. But I'm not against making it, with those things in mind.
Re Turks-- although perhaps its a bad idea as it increases the likelihood the page gets challenged and deleted, I actually was building the page in my sandbox on the basis of the entire Albanophone intellectual space which includes Albanians from Kosovo and Macedonia and Montenegro (but not, at the moment, Greece). There are indisputably Turks in Kosovo and Northwestern Macedonia some of whom have been "Albanized" (see the ethnicity switching patterns in the censuses, for example). In Albania there was once settlement by Turks of pockets of Albania-- around Shkoder, a pocket in Elbasan and a pocket near Korce. However there is no discussion of what became of these settlements nowadays Re the Bosniaks (some of whom are Muslims from Montenegro) yeah actually that's great, I'm gathering links on these things at intervals now-- in particular I'm trying to find things about the communities' conceptualizations of their own identities, but I'm putting this on hold at the moment due to the issue of deciding the scope of the page. I've also heard of Albanization of Orthodox Montenegrin communities (not near the border, but in Central Albania), presumably during the Ottoman era but no actually good sources on this on my hand at the moment. And yeah I'm aware the page looks like crap right now-- I have to reorganize it somehow to tie the stuff together in a way that is of Wikipedia's standards. One problem is my own Albanian literacy :/. But sandboxes are great, aren't they. --Yalens (talk) 19:34, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yalens, Sulstarova's stuff is a somewhat more wide-ranging though and covers both like and dislike and the mix that has resulted in. Kind of why i thought that might be an angle worth going about. Still we would need sources before creating such a page. In time though as there are other articles that need to be addressed first. As for Turks in Kosovo, Malcolm Noel's wide ranging study on Kosovo only says that Turks in Kosovo were found there from medevil times and lived in 3 small settlements. People today in Prizren and Mamusha for example are Albanians who took on Turkish culture and language in the 18/19th century (kind of like the Orthodox Albanians becoming hellenized) and in response to the urban countryside thing also, the phenomenon was limited in Kosovo. In a historical context, you will find sources for the Turkification of these people instead of the opposite. In Macedonia its a similar story and Macedonian sources even refer to turkifed Albanians in Gostivar and two to three villages around it. In Tearce are people who have declared themselves as Turks, descendants of Turks outright (settled a few hundred ago after disturbances by Albanians near the Kacanik gorge), while in Upper Zhupa the 5 to 6 villages settled by the Turks after the capture of Sfetigrad from Skanderbeg on which modern day Kodzadzik is built. There are good studies on these these days. Even the Albanians of Skopje called Turks in the 19th/early 20th century where noted by Gustav Weigand as speaking Albanian at home (cited in Aarbakke). The process was linguistic Turkification in certain areas (overwhelmingly urban in Tetovo, Gostivar and Skopje) but not outright of identity due to the Ottoman state being ejected from the region. In Macedonia these people have been switching and playing around with their identities, whereas in Kosovo its solidified, post 1999 (i.e: Mamusha, somewhat in Prizren. In Dobercan village though Turkish is spoken they identify themselves as Albanians).
In Albania numbers of Turks resident which was small have assimilated long long ago even before independent Albania came around due to small numbers. Elbasan, true was settled in some part by Turkish people upon its creation and Shkoder had some Turks of some number whom were clerics but overall by the creation of the Albanian state these had long assimilated. Of Korce, its the first i am hearing about this. There is no works about a continuous modern day presence because there is no continuous Turkish community. Turks in the census today are post 1992 made up of businessmen, people involved in the education sector (Gulen schools) etc. Of the Bosniaks, those in Shkoder do not regard themselves as Bosniaks or even Muslim Montenegrins but Podgoricani, from Podgorica (academic sources -also based on fieldwork -for more see Islam in Albania article: Steinke-Ylli, Tošić). Stienke and Ylli did fieldwork on all the Slavic communities in Albania from the mid 2000s until the middle part of this decade (see book 4: Vraka - Borakaj). On the book, about Montenegrins they mention nothing about Orthodox Montenegrin in Elbasan. The only person thus far who has mentioned a "Serbian Orthodox" presence or "Albanized origin" of the Orthodox of Elbasan was Jovan Cvijić and his work is noted for being politically biased (see: Wilkinson) advancing late 19th/early 20th century Serbian expansionism (also see: Serbian historiography). On sandboxes, yeah the're cool. Best.Resnjari (talk) 03:27, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Mbase do te lexoj veprat e Sulstaroves, nese kam kohe (nje dite... sa larg...). As for the Orthodox Slavs in Central Albania these were not in Elbasan but rather further south, on this map you can see a brief Slavic (sometimes marked as Serb-Montenegrin-youknowthedrill-etc in one map, Bulgarian in others) around Mallakastra and Selenica -- see here ([[10]], [[11]], [[12]] ). Granted there are many errors in these maps. In any case I think I'm gonna ditch that part of the page anyways. --Yalens (talk) 05:10, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Get your hands on Maps and Politics: A Review of the Ethnographic Cartography of Macedonia (1951) by Henry Robert Wilkinson. Its still a classic for Balkan studies. He dissects these maps (his coverage goes wider than Macedonia -book title should have had word Balkans). I say this because maps like Lejean's for example cover all of historic Epirus as having Albanians or consisting of Albanian speakers which is false. Greek Zagori, Pogoni, the area of Arta, Ioannina etc were mainly Greek speaking. Take those maps with caution as some had various political motives -see Wilkerson for more. Otherwise one ends up with POVish results and manipulations, i.e see map "Blue for Greeks" - even areas that are inhabited by Muslim Albanians apparently in this map are Greek. Compare this POV map with the maps from Kokolakis based on actual and proper scholarship. Also Kokolakis' very detailed study which encompasses the whole Ioannina Vilayet does not make reference to a Slavic population being resident there (even linguistically). On the few islands of Slavs down south, were mainly in Myzeqe brought by Ali Pasha as laborers from Ohrid . A few stayed, most returned back after his demise (see Selishchev). Hope it assists.Resnjari (talk) 05:46, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yo Resnjari, so I just finished making a demographic map showing the "traditional" locations of various linguistic and religious groups in Albania using a huge variety of sources that's way too long to list on your talk page here (including Kokolakis and Kallivretakis though-- thanks for those). I figured I'd send it to you before uploading, as you seem to know a lot of specific demographic facts esp with regard to random villages, to see if I missed anything. You have any time? Understood if not. --Yalens (talk) 05:31, 17 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
SilentResident, I just went with the redirect. There are few i want to be rid of so i can create stuff. By the way how do you get rid of them? I tried on Alb wiki many years back and just abandoned the endevour and there is to many wiki this and that pages on doing stuff and a headache to look for.Resnjari (talk) 14:55, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The redirect works only if you try by conventional means to access the page where the redirect tag is placed. To avoid getting redirected, you have to add the following command on your web browser's address bar:
&redirect=no
So, if you want for example to access the Orthodoxy in Albania without being redirected, adding the &redirect=no at the end of the url will let you do so. Example:
Similar codes exist outside of Wikipedia too. For example, if you are a Google user and you want to stay on the english version of the search engine and avoid a localization redirect to your country's version (ie Google.al), you will have to add the following code at the end of the url:
Thanks for this additon and the work you've done in this field. Just out of curiosity as I am an outsider who is interested, is there not also Albanian nationalism in Montenegro? It just seems odd that in Macedonia and Serbia they can have one demand but in Montenegro they might resign themselves to "minority" status when they do form majorities in parts. I say this even if relations between the Albanian community and the Montenegrin regime may be good. Likewise, if I am not mistaken, both Italy and Greece are a homeland for ethnic Albanians even if the number is smaller. Is there not nationalism there too? Or will articles come along later in time? Cheers. --Coldtrack (talk) 19:47, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Coldtrack. I am finalising a holistic Albanian nationalism article hopefully in the next hour or so due to "popular demand" on the main talkpage. lol. But on Montenegro, yes there is kind of, however when i did the google books + scholar search, most of the material was in regards to Albania, Kosovo and Macedonia. One source was in relation to Montenegro. If editors come across substantive material for a Montenegro page they are more then welcome to initiate a article. The Albanian community there has been more integrated so probably why the disparity. In Greece its complicated. Albanians are divided into four sub groups and the smallest, the Chams, most ended up being in northern Greece after the Balkan Wars 1912-13. Of the Albanian speakers who became Muslim (late 18th century) they much later developed an Albanian consciousness. Those that remained Orthodox, due to the Patriarchate and Greek schooling and after 1912 becoming part of Greece attained a Greek consciousness. These divisions in Thesprotia would play out in communal discord as modern identities of Albanian for Muslim Albanian speakers and Greek for Orthodox Albanian speakers clashed during the interwar period [13], [14]. During World War Two Muslim Albanian Chams supported the Axis forces who promised unification with Albania and a small number outright collaborated. Both sides committed various forms of violence against each other and 1944 rightwing EDES forces (of which contained some numbers of local Orthodox Albanian speakers) expelled them into Albania. Local Orthodox Albanian speakers see themselves as Greeks and though they identify also as Arvanites, they are careful about connecting that with being Albanian to avoid associations with what they consider Albanian irredentism. So there really isn't an Albanian nationalism present in Greece today. Had the Muslim Chams not been expelled and some kind of Albanian consciousness had spread among some Orthodox Albanian speakers in the area, who knows things might be different.
If this journal article is hard to come by, i'll place a chunk of it which sums up the stuff i said -its in french -use google translate to read if not a French speaker. Pierre Sintes, from his research wrote. p. 90 [15]: "Ces stèles participeraient donc d’un double mouvement d’assignation d’identités, par défaut nationales, alors que la réalité des appartenances dans la région est plus labile, surtout depuis la réouverture de la frontière en 1990. Le recours aux cadres d’une identité plutôt locale peut finalement être une manière pratique de tourner cette contradiction et de résoudre ce qui se présente comme un paradoxe inconciliable dans les discours nationaux. C’est par exemple le cas au sujet du flottement qui se fait jour dans la définition des termes employés pour se définir dans cette région. Léonidas Embirikos et Lambros Baltsiotis ont montré comment l’appellation « Tcham » pouvait à cet égard être des plus significative car employée pour désigner des réalités parfois bien différentes [Baltisiotis et Embirikos, 2007]. De la même manière, ces auteurs montrent de manière éloquente comment l’adoption récente du terme d’« Arvanite » (plutôt que de « Tchams ») qu’utilisent pour se désigner les albanophones résidant encore dans l’actuelle Thesprotie conduit à la neutralisation de la question de leur altérité linguistique, qui cesse ainsi d’être un fait transnational pour devenir une question interne à la Grèce contemporaine où d’autres populations albanophones sont présentes en Attique et dans le nord-est du Péloponnèse. Le groupe linguistique des albanophones de Thesprotie se trouve donc séparé en deux du fait de ces appellations distinctes : d’un côté ces « Arvanites » (sous-entendu, les orthodoxes albanophones) compris comme de conscience nationale grecque à l’image des autres « Arvanites » de vieille Grèce, de l’autre les « Turco-Tchams » ou « Albano-Tchams » qui sont compris comme étant des Albanais musulmans que l’on associe historiquement à la construction nationale albanaise ; n’a-t-on pas entendu d’ailleurs dans presque toutes nos enquêtes qu’ils ont été « renvoyés chez eux » à l’occasion de la Seconde Guerre mondiale ? Cette présentation permet ainsi à ces citoyens grecs albanophones présents dans la région d’exprimer leur particularité linguistique tout en la neutralisant, en désamorçant tout lien entre un éventuel irrédentisme albanais et leur présence actuelle en Thesprotie."
Hope it assists. After these nationalism articles i am going to give them a little rest. Albanian nationalism by Albanians in Italy was devoted toward the Balkans and in particular related to what is Albania today. So it mainly is covered in the Albania article.Resnjari (talk) 20:30, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah thanks for that. Obviously in Macedonia and Serbia (and Kosovo) it has been more prominent. I wouldn't personally have thought integration would have been an issue if the desires were self-determination. Likewise, I couldn't see self-determination being the answer where a nation fails to achieve integrated status. One would assume the community will press for what it wants because if it cannot get it, it will be repressed either way if that makes any sense. I mean nationalism in this region had been on the rise for the last hundred and something years of Ottoman rule, yet the Ottomans saw regime change on several occasions during this period. I know Montenegrin chunks are included in any proposed great Albanian state but ultimately you are right, an article of this nature can only exist where there is enough coverage of Albanians acting inside Montenegro. Otherwise it falls in the scope of pure Albanian nationalism regardless of subject's homeland. If I find anything that may help I too will submit it, or make the contributions once any article is created. Thanks for the transfers. --Coldtrack (talk) 20:41, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Coldtrack, depends on how self determination is defined. In Montenegro, Albanians want the Tuzi municipality reconstituted (abolished 1956). There are those demands but not ones within the community to secede and unite with Albania. However not sure if that falls under nationalism per se. Anyway, these are articles needed to be done. To much stuff out there and too few Albanian editors to address the content. The old Albanian nationalism page was very POVish, had poor referencing, original research etc. Considering Albanian related issues are going to be a "hot" geopolitical topic for years to come, might as well have proper scholarship covering it. Any assistance would be much appreciated. Best.Resnjari (talk) 20:50, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again for reply. I'll make this one quick - and so you know this is my humble opinion. I can only assume you are referring to this Tuzi? If locals are not pushing for outright independence then they cannot be seeking to connect with the wider Albanian nationalists. Technically they would be in conflict here. In reality however, communities demonstrate patriotism by articulating vocal support for their ethnic affiliates across national borders. Such a measure is closer to regionalism but it differs in that it has this twist of ethnic self-interest. Somehow neither here nor there, or maybe moderate nationalism. We'd all need to seek advice over this one. --Coldtrack (talk) 20:57, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah Tuzi. But locals don't want independence, just to have the old municipality back which would be made up of only Albanian villages as they feel subsumed under the larger Podgorica municipality. With Albanians, though what might be regionalism or even just basic human rights at times is viewed by neighbouring states as nationalism in general. Its how the region is, i guess.Resnjari (talk) 21:07, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm writing you this followup message, as you took the time to vote in support of a Wikipedia banner campaign for the introduction of Fair Use in Australia.
Furthermore, and with the support of the ADA & EFA, we have received fantastic media coverage - with article "Fair Use: Wikipedia targets Australians in bid to change the law" appearing on page 2 of the Sydney Morning Herald and page 10 of the Melbourne Age on Monday's edition. It was for a time the 3rd most read article the Fairfax website, and Fair Use was "trending" on Twitter in Australia. We are running the account @FairCopyrightOz on twitter, and we are tracking other press-mentions on the talkpage on Meta.
Today, day 2, we published a detailed post about the campaign on the Wikimedia Blog, ran an "Ask Me Anything" Q&A session on the Australia page in Reddit, and [by happy coincidence of timing] the article History of fair use proposals in Australia appeared on the en.wp mainpage as a Did You Know. [The creation of that "history of..." article was a specific request arising from in the community consultation in which you voted].
And, most importantly, in a little more than a day nearly 800 letters to MPs have been sent encouraging them to support the Productivity Commission's recommendation to adopt Fair Use in Australia. I urge you - please add your own message.
Hi Resnjari, I just wanted to let you know that I have added the "autopatrolled" permission to your account, as you have created numerous, valid articles. This feature will have no effect on your editing, and is simply intended to reduce the workload on new page patrollers. For more information on the patroller right, see Wikipedia:Autopatrolled. Feel free to leave me a message if you have any questions. Happy editing! — MusikAnimaltalk20:22, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There's this great guy I know, really well-read, and it's thought[by whom?] he may own a library[original research?]. There's a high chance he's been on a page if there's great and well-organized citations. Goes by Resnjari. Thank goodness he exists. 10/10 would give a barnstar again. Yalens (talk) 07:40, 27 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I would do it myself normally, but could you add the Pontificio thing? Offwiki issues to deal with, you know. Thanks a bunch. As per Mema, my general observation is that he's a good journalist, he just happens to have strong feelings about things. He has what I would call the "Orth Albanian viewpoint" in that he argues against both Greek claims and claims that marginalize the Orthodox historically/currently or try to make them "less Albanian"/'Eastern'/etc.... and he posted some passionate opinions on the internet which may have affected his professional reputation, and that's likely why he got banned from Greece in combination with the sensitivity of the Cham issue. Some other Albanian writers have had the same issue. I think in his work as a journalist he is a reliable reporter of events. Thanks a ton man.EDIT: sorry, I had kinda skimmed that talk page --Kalinthos (talk) 19:43, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
People coming in and undoing swathes of proper formatted article improvements because it to them is just slightly less pro-Armenian. User:Ninetoyadome this guy, I see he's also going around unlisting Armenian terrorist organisations from the terrorist category. His agenda is obvious.--Moshe Avigdor (talk) 23:25, 22 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
User:Moshe Avigdor, from experience with these kind of articles, my advice is not to go there with regards to someones background. Just make the content and scholarship the focus of discussion in the talkpage about changes, that is in line with Wikipedia policies and guidelines. More would be achieved that way. Best.Resnjari (talk) 23:29, 22 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I think you are right, but it just feels like a one step forward two steps back deal. For every legitimately formulated researched bit of content, people ram in garbage content or remove good content at twice the rate. That article for instance has been constantly edited since like 2008 or something and yet what we see now, the poorly structured full on negative hit piece, is what has come of all the tireless editing people have done on it. I also see swathes of comments have been removed from the talk page as well in the history.--Moshe Avigdor (talk) 23:37, 22 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
User:Moshe Avigdor, go through the article piece by piece, and select something for a look at to discuss in the talkpagee and from there we will work it out alongside other editors. Importantly, point out what are the issues with that piece of text, proposals for possible resolutions etc. I must say it will be a long process going by what was said in the talkpage. Nonetheless, this way more will be achieved. Best.Resnjari (talk) 23:41, 22 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Really? Really?? Cut it out, stop contributing so much positive for wikipedia and Albania related articles in particular, you're making us all look bad. Any more and I'm going to have to request a block for the sake of all our egos! Vargmali (talk) 15:41, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I was not vandalizing. The current Wikipedia article of Migjeni as it is, has various inaccuracies and many mistakes. I do not have the time to re-edit everything, but I did omit what was obviously, blatantly untrue. Please let me know if you want more details.
Ikurshmerisht, ok then outline issues on the talkpage for a discussion to iron out problems. Big deletions like that of cited material can result in you get sanctioned with blocks. No need. Best. (talk) 17:39, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
I am sorry, I haven't the slightest clue how to edit Wikipedia; I'm what you can call a downright amateur. Your talkpage seems inundated with Albanian-related info. If you are Albanian, read the article and edit it accordingly, procedurally. If not, I can send you the correct info and you edit it. As I said, I don't have the time, or the skills to do it properly.
Ikurshmerisht ok, some tips for Wikipedia editing. Importantly make sure the sources/scholarship you use meet wp:reliable and wp:secondary. There is a guidelines page on Help:Editing and one on editing policy WP:EP, also read stuff on editor conduct WP:LOP which had links for further information. Wikipedia is a public encyclopedia so anyone even yourself can edit. English language Wikipedia related articles have few editors, so the more come on board to make a contribution would be much appreciated. You can send me the information if you wish or you can outline matters on the talkpage of the article which you see issues with. Best.Resnjari (talk) 18:11, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the tips; much appreciated. I will closely read and scrutinize the current citations on Migjeni's page, and then do some research of my own. After I'm done, If I deem it necessary, I will make changes following "protocol," so to speak.
Ikurshmerisht all good. Just thought the tips would assist. Many Albanian editors have caught themselves in a bind in time past and have been blocked for months at a time to even getting banned. On sources google books and scholar are good places to start for finding scholarship using key terms like a name etc and consult a library or other if you have access to such institutions. Best.Resnjari (talk) 18:29, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
National identity is a very sensitive issue for most Albanians, me less than others. (Or so I thought). I know how and where to find academic sources, and even what constitutes one, thanks for the heads up.
Also, I do not necessarily disagree with particular facts, rather than the way they are composed or presented. If I find some free time on my hands, I will try to come up with something more consensually error-free and more easily digestible to the Albanian readers. Cheers. Ikurshmerisht (talk) 18:38, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, I didnt understand you. Source is given, The Website of Prince Osman Rifat Ibrahim, a descendant of Muhammad Ali Pasha. You can read that Muhammad Ali Pashas Ancestor belonged to Ilic in Anatolia.
Hi Nalanidil. You keep placing personalised websites of a modern day royal family member. For modern day celebrities (depending on the credibility of the news outlet) that may be applicable for what heritage they are within wiki articles, as scholarship does not cover it. Muhammad Ali was born over 200 years ago. Scholarly sources (like Elsie) give Muhammad Ali's heritage as Albanian. Find ones that support the information you allude to, in sources that meet wiki requirements of wp:reliable and wp:secondary. Best.Resnjari (talk) 14:34, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
But, isn't it more worth, the meaning of a living descendant from Muhammad Ali Pasha? Why People believe what Non Members said? Also, where is a real source that Muhammad Ali Pasha belonged to Korce in Albania?
Mostly Members of the Muhammad Ali Dynasty married with Cousins and Members of the Ottoman Dynasty. you can see the Familytree's. Also Muhammad Ali Pasha married his own Cousine Emine of Nusretli.
Nalanidil, yes the intermarried. The Korcha bit was removed in my most recent edit after consulting Elsie. That is not the issue here. Scholarship notes he has an Albanian origin, not a Turkish one. A personalised website of a family member is not scholarship. Especially on sensitive issues like this, its always best to base content on scholarship, than personalised websites. Please consult Wikipedia policies and guidelines for this when it comes to sources (wp:relibale and wp:secondary. Best.Resnjari (talk) 15:16, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Please have a Look, to the Homepage of Prince Osman Rifat Ibrahim, a descendant in paternal line of Muhammad Ali Pasha. His Ancestors was from the Turkish City İliç, www.mohamedali.eu/mohamed_ali.html
This is a real Source, because He know it better where his Ancestor's belong from.
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Jim1138, If the IP wants to have a discussion, i am ll for that,, but it has being doing other sourced removals on the shqiptar page as well. For now as many other editors view those kind of edits as being vandalism, i am of that view too until the IP outlines things. Best.Resnjari (talk) 04:11, 25 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Resnjari, the recent edit of yours on Makelari/Maqellare peaked my interest. I have access to marriage and family structure data, as well as some religious denominational data, from the 1918 Austro-Hungarian census, and it does mention % Albanian versus % minorities by district, but it doesn't mention what the minorities were. There are other sources handling that but having to go through them each separately for different regions has been a real pain. I saw that apparently Steinke had some access to the ethnicity data, by village. I was wondering if you or perhaps a fluent German and Hungarian speaker like Pasztilla might know where to get access to this finer grained data? Cheers, --Calthinus (talk) 15:40, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Calthinus, on getting Austro-Hungarian data -the whole census is out of my grasp. All i can relay on that is what is contained from the 4 Steinke and Ylli studies of Slavic minorities in Albania. They used that data (also various Slavic works) to compare it with their fieldwork they undertook in the various areas. So going by that yeah the census would have had demographic data. On the census, apart from the Slavic areas, the rest was Albanian speaking -with some Aromanians down south -although not too south as the war front was around the Berat area etc. The only other source that comes to mind for what your looking for is the detailed monograph that the Allies prepared of each country during WW2 providing much information. It was part of the British Naval Intelligence Handbooks series. Its of particular use because it gives a very detailed settlement by settlement breakdown of the Albanian tribal area by clan, tribe, population size how much arms and men they were able to muster and also religious demographics by settlement (the area which also was under the Austrians during WW1). This data going by memory (as i have not borrowed this in a very long while) was gathered from the interwar period as the Brits thought that the tribal area could be an place for the resistance etc, hence the focus. I wont be at my university library for a while -which has copy where they keep the government annexe stuff, but if you live in a Western country there should copy in your area at a university. Its a red leather bound volume and when you'll open the cover it will write "top secret" and atop will have a declassified stamp. Its a book of about 300 pages. Best.Resnjari (talk) 16:12, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Resnjari-- I have had access to a British military source, thankfully, indeed (temporarily) through the lib. But still, the more sources, the better. I'll keep searching for it. --Calthinus (talk) 16:39, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This barnstar is given to you in recognition of your (tiring and repetitive) work in improving many of the neglected articles of towns and villages belonging to the Balkan topic-area of Wikipedia. A Herculean effort, if you ask me. Simply impressive. ❤ SILENTRESIDENT ❤12:07, 17 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
... about Radisani Drzava, I just feel like you need to contact an admin so he can deal with him. Obviously, he doesn't understand that Wikipedia works on transparency and not nationalism. Cheers! — Tom(T2ME)18:41, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Tomica: yeah its one of those things. If Radisani Drzava does that again, i'll add that edit warring template thing to their talkpage and then if they continue refer them to an admin. I really, really wish they would desist as they risk bans or even a block over something so trivial (sigh).Resnjari (talk) 19:42, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, if that's necessary, then be it. I remember in my early editing days, blocks made me realize things, so it might help him too :). Btw, I stalked you a bit, thanks for all the great work you do on the Macedonia-related articles, it's very much appreciated! — Tom(T2ME)21:39, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Anytime @Tomica: and thanks for the compliment. :) Too many of the Macedonia related articles get neglected, due to lack of editors. I hope Radisani Drzava reflects on things as they have potential to develop as an editor and contribute over time. I hope this to be the case. Best.Resnjari (talk) 09:36, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
For your comment, no worries. Thing is that I sense that those who vote delete are better served with a keep and those who vote keep with a delete. :) I won't engage more on this, I don't have any time for weeks to come. Yaḥyā (talk) 22:11, 8 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have few minutes to kill. There could be many ways to satisfy both parties, set a calendar with a bot renaming the article back and forth (based on Muslim and Christian holidays) satisfying everyone… as for the wordings in the intro and inside the article… a wikipedia user wrote a code [18] that can be adapted. Draft the controversial phrase structures after stable English references like King James Bible and each parties set the wording you want to see in those phrases. Each time it is reloaded another version. So if you end up with the version someone disagree, it’s the random generators fault, before someone reverts he is advised to refresh the page to have another version he could find more acceptable. Besides, if an opponent says he agree, since it’s a random generator picking it, someone will never know which version it is. Guys, those are just few of several of the possibilities. There’s also the parent (articles like Muhacir)---child (articles about persecution) articles way of proceeding. AfD all lack creativity and always the same broken records. :) Yaḥyā (talk) 23:50, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Yahya Talatin:, i'm not against an article split of a pre-19th century article and one that deals with the 19th century and early 20th century. On that the scholarship is increasingly looking at the matter holistically and also in the context of individual events. That article needs to contain the word Persecution. Internal contents can be upgraded by a fair amount considering that editors on the AfD have identified a whole host of academic sources that meet wiki criteria that are for now absent from the article. Thing is for editors to devote time and effort into writing that up + referencing, there must be a decision on the AfD first, otherwise it makes no sense to edit now in a fluid and uncertain situation. Its a complex topic and the AfD has spun off in many directions and am in agreement with your view of the AfD. Who knows how it will end. Its a wiki cliffhanger, that's for sure with all the drama of a Balkans style soap opera. :) Best.Resnjari (talk) 03:06, 11 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, this is a very good source on the Albania-Turkey relations, Turkish interests in them and so on. The study was done under supervision by a panel headed by Beqir Meta, a renowned historian. Some content based on the work was published in a scientific magazine. I have that mazine article but can not post it here as it is now allowed. Read the source in the link, and add stuff from it to the Wiki article. If you need, ping me and I can add some stuff from the magazine article to the Wiki article. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:31, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your support at Talk:Macedonia naming dispute. I noted that you are Albanian. I recently bought a copy of Kryezoti i Unazave for my collection of Lord of the Rings translations from botimeshqip.com. Their customer service was some of the best international service I've ever experienced. Cheers. --Taivo (talk) 16:44, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@TaivoLinguist:, i haven't read it in Albanian (it would an interesting take on the adventure) but Tolkien is one of my favorite authors. With the Macedonia matter, it kind of has the feel of a Tolkien saga as some are too little bit obsessed with the "precious", instead of letting it be. It is what it is. lol Best.Resnjari (talk) 16:50, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Vepton:, its does not preclude that this may go to the constitutional court. Its too soon for changes on Wikipedia. A few months ago the state of affairs was the law passed in parliament, euphoria, protest, and then presidential refusal for legislative assent into law. This time they will go to the constitutional court. I reckon the best course of action is just to keep an eye out on what happens until all avenues have been exhausted, before changes are made on Wikipedia. Otherwise it will be tit for tat edit warring and it wont go well for editors who have a interest in Albanian topics -just saying from experience.Resnjari (talk) 18:23, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
After investigating I see that the president is obliged to sign with 7 days. Once these 7 days pass I guess we can see what happens.--Vepton (talk) 13:17, 16 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Vepton:, yep agreed, its too sensitive a matter, it depends really on whether the opposition finally goes through with what it said by taking the issue to the constitutional court. Otherwise, Ivanov will have to sign or there might be a constitutional crisis.Resnjari (talk) 04:39, 17 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed we may have to wait until the dust settles. However on the talk page I am discussing the topic to prove that once the dust does settle that it should be included in the official languages section.Vepton (talk) 14:20, 18 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We can all see that you've got a big heart even for those who do not reciprocate your love, but it's you who could use advice here, not Sorabino. We're all busy. You're wasting your time. The damsel in distress sees herself as a strong and independent woman, and doesn't even want your advice. --Calthinus (talk) 14:18, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Merhaba Kardaş ! Thank you for the kind words @Redman19:. I have plenty of family in Turkey, in Istanbul, Izmir and especially Bursa, due to the Balkan Wars and all that business of escaping Serb and Greek armies. In the end, even with continents and borders, we are who we are. Kardaş, do you have knowledge of Albanian? Best.Resnjari (talk) 04:27, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Merhaba kardesim! unfortunately I do not have any knowledge of Albanian... my great-grandfather from my father's side is from Kosovo and he used to speak Albanian fluently, he also spoke Serbian but was an ethnic Albanian. I was born in Turkey but I always knew I wasn't fully Turk. My geat-grandfather from my mother's side is from Thessaloniki. Redman19 (talk) 07:59, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Redman19:, a Kosovar, mashallah ! Wonderful place and people. :) My family are southerners, from the Resen and Bitola municipalities and formally had family in the Florina area including the town. As you have seen with some of my editing i have an interest in the Ottoman state and on Albanians in Turkey. Have a look if or when time permits at the Albanians in Turkey article as there is more to do, but its always good to have a fresh voice to give advice. Best.Resnjari (talk) 04:00, 2 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have seen your efforts kardas, I really admire your edits. Maybe some names you would like to add, Enver Pasha was of Albanian origin too. I can keep you updated about more names. Redman19 (talk) 07:22, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Most Albanians I know support Galatasaray by the way, mostly because of Ali Sami Yen, I am a Fenerbahçe fan, would like to lure you to the bright side :)) Redman19 (talk) 07:27, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Redman19:, Enver's Albanian heritage is referenced in his article. He was more tune with his father's Turkish side. If you come across any academic references in Turkish or other on Şükrü Saracoğlu being of Albanian origin pass them on here. Galatasaray has its Frashëri roots, its hard to switch kardaş. :) Best.Resnjari (talk) 13:04, 4 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In the text you added to Scutari Vilayet, you used two terms for Albanian highlanders, Malsore and Malisori. Although both are usable, it would be preferable to use only one of them in the article, to avoid any kind of confusion and make a better flow. The better one should be used in all articles, actually, to avoid confusion among readers who are not well-versed on the subject. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:56, 8 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
G'day Resnjari, and welcome to Milhist. I'm not going to template welcome you because you are an old hand and will find your away around the project as you need. If you would like to sign up to receive the monthly project newsletter, The Bugle you can do that here. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me or any of the other coordinators. And best wishes for the holiday season! Regards, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:06, 22 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The article says that "The name kokoretsi comes from Albanian kokorets". But the link sends to the Romanian language article, not to the Albanian language one. The source seems to not be in English. Can you verify what does it say? I am not sure whether it is a Romanian or Albanian word. The language and lack of time prevent me from doing that by myself. Thanks, Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:47, 11 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ktrimi991, i did a quick look around and this is what out there. The first source is RS [20]. The other two i am not sure if they are cooking books or just histories of food (so i am not sure if their use is applicable, but nonetheless still interesting) [21], [22]. Maybe Macrakis might have a view on use of the last two.Resnjari (talk) 22:07, 11 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
TU-nor, i saw you made some edits to the Kokoretsi article. You might be able assist here as your a fresh pair of eyes. I came across these 3 sources. The first one is RS beyond doubt for use, but the other two i am not so sure. What do you reckon ? Best.Resnjari (talk) 16:57, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Resnjari: I cannot see anything disqualifiyng about the three sources. Serious publishers, convincing presentation. So I am sure they can be used (depending on what you are going to use them for, of course). FWIW, the second one seems to me to be the weakest. --T*U (talk) 19:40, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
TU-nor i was going to use them for the etymology. Though the first one is solidly RS it lumps Kokoretsi with three other dishes about name etymologies and does not distinguish as to which name is derived from Albanian or Turkish, while the other two do that. Also the second source does discuss Arvanites and their relationship to the dish. It is in these 2 contexts, that i was thinking about adding content. Thoughts?Resnjari (talk) 19:52, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As for the additional sources, Andrew Dalby is certainly a serious author for the history of Greek food, but in this case, he adds nothing new -- he just says that the name is "apparently" Albanian. Aglaia Kremezi is the most serious cooking author for Greek food, but again, I don't think the cited extract says anything helpful for the article. --Macrakis (talk) 22:32, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I hail from the German Vickypedia, we keep all minority languages in the infobox, that's even a policy on our Balkan guidelines. What's the story here? TIA! Fossa?!23:16, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thx, I take it, there is no "official" policy, then this might end up in an Edit War. BTW: Nice pics, never thought about Mt. Pellister like that, for me it's all burnt territory. Fossa?!23:26, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Fossa:, i hope common sense prevails with that editor. If edit warring happens, they are just inviting issues for themselves. On pics, Thanks :) I just finished uploading most of my holiday pics from the area (they are a few hundred or more -lost count). The area is beautiful and so full of potential. Its a pity that the region is underutilised in terms of economic development and tourism. Got many more pics for other areas in my stay last year in the Balkans (have not uploaded them except for a few here or there). You can see the in the commons category the villages of Resen municipality [23]. I uploaded photos to villages categories like Grnčari, Krani, Arvati, Dolna Bela Crkva, Gorna Bela Crkva, Sopotsko, Podmočani, Kozjak, Asamati, Nakolec, Rajca, Štrbovo and Pretor + Kišava. With some there are mini categories about the villages like churches and rivers and the pics i took are also in those extra subcategories (like the monastery in Grnčari etc). Best.Resnjari (talk) 23:50, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wouldn't bet on that. It took a long time until we got the Balkans "appeased" in the German Wikipedia. Eventually, it worked, but it was a handful of people, and we got support from everybody not from the Balkans (I exclude Romania and Bulgaria here, but they have different issues). About the pix: Nice. Fossa?!23:58, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's really weird coincidence though. Just the other day I came across your userpage and stopped to admire those photos - it's an amazing place, that valley (Macedonia or Kosova or Albania?), I was looking to see if there is an overview of the stream that can be noticed but only as a distant feature. I nearly decided to contact you and ask you if you could store them on Google server so that they could appear in Google Maps and Google Earth. Anyway, thanks on that token of appreciation and see you around.--౪ Santa ౪99°16:26, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Santasa99. :) Most photos on my userpage are from the Prespa region, except Kišava and all are in Macedonia. I've uploaded near around 1000 images to Wiki commons of my holiday pics of these villages. I got a few thousand more from my Balkan travels last year too. I don't know how to transfer these pics to Google server, and i must admit it did not occur to me -is it a similar process of uploading like with wiki commons? All my uploaded images are free to use from wiki commons. I noticed your good editing some time back so if you want journal articles but have difficulty in accessing a electronic library university database to add content on a article, email me and most likely i might be able to get it for you as i have access to a lot of resources. Happy editing! Best.Resnjari (talk) 16:14, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I was thinking of some improvements the article of the new municipality needed. I went to the artcicle and what I saw was that you had already made them :) Te lumshin duart! The area/size in km2 is needed, btw. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:22, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Ktrimi991 :) Its early days. The municipality is new and just got a website up and running so information is scant on the finer details. Best we can do is keep an eye out for content, as later in the year more information will be available to better develop the article. Best.Resnjari (talk) 23:27, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I am sorry that I waited for so long to reply on your offer (journals) and to thank you. I also didn't get a chance to check out your photographs on Commons, but I will sooner or later. I looked after our first exchanged on Google about uploading and placing photos on their disposal to use them in Google Maps service. I am not sure, though, how that works, I am not using it and don't taking photos for quite some time, however, I guess that all photos taken with a phone should be easy to upload and store it directly and possibly automatically to your Google account, from where they usually taking files for their Google Maps. still I am not quite sure about that part, how that works - you probably have to do something beside providing coordinates and some info, certainly some approval. Not sure. I used to upload on Panoramio, while they existed - their service was the best, and since they disappeared whole thing with photos on Google Maps and Earth went "south".
I would like to commend you, and certainly thank you, for top-notch job on uncovering, reporting and/or fighting unblocking attempts of two most heinous disruptive editors on Balkans topics, sock-puppeteers User:Zoupan, whose editing funneled characteristic Serb(ian) ethno-nationalist slant (all with often espoused conspiracy theories), and User:AnulBanul, whose editing was on exactly the same trajectory carrying characteristic Croatian ethno-nationalist bias - their edits survived, and still remain despite being disruptive for the project to the extreme, like that string of some 6-7 duplicate articles on "Bosnian" mujahedeen and "Bosnian" Al Qaeda, Islamism and Islamic terrorism in Bosnia and Kosovo, Islamism and Islamic terrorism in Balkans, all mostly copy/pasted from two more appropriate articles on Foreign fighters in Balkan wars and one on particular unit in Bosnian army (7th Muslim, something like that) - not to mention several articles describing "terrorist" attacks in Bosnia which only these Wikipedia articles labels as such, without single official designation reference. What you did for the community by researching and reporting AnulBanul for sock-puppetry, and also fought against Zoupan ilks when they tried to rehabilitate and reintroduce that editor back, is probably best thing that could happen to community and editing on Balkans topics since project's inception. In addition, blocking of these two, AnulBanul and Zoupan, has something else no less important for consequence: with their blocking and departure their ilk, which are numerous both among Croatian as well as Serbian editor community, is suddenly tamed, leaving their aggressive and disruptive behavior and adopting more tepid one, at least those more careful ones. Also, they obviously learned that one can get blocked no matter how old his/her sock-puppet accounts are, and regardless if they used them long time ago, which could also means that many in the Balkans editor community have sock-skeletons in their closets, still waiting to be uncovered. Looking forward to hear and talk to you, when time allows - Cheers!--౪ Santa ౪99°01:22, 8 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Santasa99:, thank you for the kind words and suggestions. Much appreciated! I will look into transferring my pics to Google Maps and as to how that process works. For now many of my holiday pics are on wiki commons, free for anyone to use. There are more pics of other areas in the Balkans, but I have not had time to upload them yet. As for problematic editors and Balkan topics, i highly doubt that will cease. Often, one leaves another comes and takes their place, sometime being that same person with a new account. One of the socks @Ajdebre (aka "Zoupan") did say that they would come back to Wikipedia on their talkpage, so one never knows. If you stumble upon similar editing patterns etc, the reports on the socks exist on Wikipedia and one can have a look to see if they compare in terms of behavior etc. I like what you did with your user page by adding that spiral graph on climate change. It puts things into a visual perspective. I was looking for something like that so i can use in my conversations with some family and friends who sadly don't comprehend the urgency of the tipping point in climate change. Plus i respect much your editing regarding Bosniak topics and cleaning up the POV from former socks and even current POV pushers. Keep up the good work! If you’re interested in scholarly sources and so on or want to have a chat about things, drop by anytime on my talkpage. Best ! :)Resnjari (talk) 19:37, 16 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The one point you and Khirurg agreed on -- that Sopik, Pandalejmon and whatever that third one was should be not hatched, but using the cadastre registry, I did intend to carry out. However, the Albanian cadastre registry site his down. Here is the Soviet military map repo you mentioned [[24]]. These maps don't have discernible legends afaics. How do I tell the cadastre boundaries? --Calthinus (talk) 15:19, 25 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You can email the cadastre site. They probably will have maps of that data while they are undergoing some site fixes. On the soviet map, the Vlasenko site has the legend in terms of size at the top.Resnjari (talk) 07:11, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure why you keep changing my edits in pages like Nižepole and Brusnik, the source have in the category of "Bulgares" (Bulgarians) subcategories like Exarchists, Patriarchists, Protestants and Unis. In the subcategory of Patriarchists, "Grecisants" (Greci + Sants) or in English Grecomans and "Serbisants" or in English Serbomans are included. Those are terms used by Slavic ethnographers (in this issue) to describe Slavic speaking people who self identify as ethnic Greeks or Serbs, not accepting them actually being such thing, believing they are of Bulgarian origin. I trully believe and think its most logical Grecoman should be used in these articles i added to describe those populations, maybe adding a prefix (Patriarchist Bulgarians). By the way, even Bulgarians themselves use "Grecoman" to describe those populations according to the source as i see in the Bulgarian Wikipedia articles about Arnissa and others. Δημήτρηss (talk) 14:47, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Δημήτρηss, there are a lot of terms which were used back in day. That does not mean that they were not pejorative back then. And today they are definitely not used in academic litreture as the are outdated etc. This should be apparent to you.Resnjari (talk) 07:05, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Gerda Arendt:, in my initial edit [27], sure one could look at it that way. The thing is one of the sources [28] slightly touched on Albania, while the other [29] did not and only focused on Bosnia and Kosovo. I added [30] a BBC article [31] as a ref which covers Albania etc more better. Have a read. Best.Resnjari (talk) 17:16, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Mosesheron, thank you. Much appreciated. I wasn't even aware of the whole topic (i may have come across the word in the past, but never made much of it), so kudos to you for laying the excellent foundations for the article. Drop by any time and leave comments on the talkpage for any wiki inquiries you may have, as i see you have an interest in topics related to the Muslim world, as i do. If i am not on Wikipedia for some days, it means i could be away from home, so in that case, i don't use Wikipedia and can only be reached by email through the email this user option. Best.Resnjari (talk) 01:47, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks and Happy New Year - wish you all the best! There is so much written in reference to his NP that should be included into his "views" - from expressing a desire to turn into medieval "Orthodox monk" (:-)) fighting for Kosovo, to Siege of Sarajevo and Srebrenica. Peter Mass has written extensively on character in Intercept, and I am editing section on his denial of genocide in Bosnian genocide denial article. His BLP must be expanded with all relevant reactions on his views and engagements.--౪ Santa ౪99°13:17, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Santasa99, i wish you Happy New Year as well! :) I read the intercept article, a while back. It’s a detailed breakdown of how Handke is a genocide denier through some of his works from the 1990s. I thought of adding it, but things got toxic in the article talkpage about other trivial matters, so I didn’t bring it up. Still i suggest you have a read of the talkpage first and also this discussion [32] to get an idea of what you might be dealing with from certain editors who hold "alternative views" and edit Balkan topics, with one in particular whose disruptive focus is topics outside the old Yugoslav zone. Since Handke's Nobel prize win, much of this content has been slimed down unfortunately. I support the direction your heading in and the expansion/inclusion of content. The article is on my watchlist. As its the holidays, if i am not on Wikipedia for some days, it means i could be away from home, so in that case, i don't use Wikipedia and can only be reached by email through the email this user option. Best.Resnjari (talk) 13:38, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, and don't worry, I will e-mail you if and when I need to communicate with you. As for Handke, "all quiet on the western front" (or as in Serbo-Croatian, "na zapadu ništa novo"), but no matter how toxic nationalist pov is grown on all sides in the Balkan topics (again, in recent couple of years), facts can't simply disappear or even get obscured. We should engage them wherever they crawl out of woodwork. See you around after the holidays, bro.--౪ Santa ౪99°13:01, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Razumen srpskohrvatski Santasa99. :) However you feel comfortable interacting, it’s cool. Email can be good too; especially for things like if you want a journal article but lack access to a massive database like JSTOR. I have access to the databse to so and so article and can send it. Otherwise it’s absurd forking out $10-40 for a single article just to access it. At the moment the plan with parents is still to go away for a few days for the holidays. We postponed going to Lakes Entrance in Gippsland due to the bushfires, so instead it’s another destination in Victoria. It’s not certain though, due to wider circumstances in the country. The smoke from the rural hinterland has come into Melbourne and it reduced air quality, it’s very smoky, heavy and foul. On Handke, i agree with what you say. A few years ago, it used to be worse on Balkan topics. It’s changed somewhat as today many of the POV pushers no longer contribute to Wikipedia. Happy holidays ! Best.Resnjari (talk) 15:28, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Please stop, you are torturing me! And I envy you! Smoke, air quality, who cares, :-) you are in the middle of the summer, in a country with some of the most beautiful coastal places and beaches on the planet, and I can't imagine how it feel right now to walk around in shorts and t-shirt, eh, and just check air quality of Balkan capitals these days... I am sitting in the dark since 3 o'clock (afternoon), outside is around zero degree or below, and my city is second (or somewhere around the top) in air pollution on some world chart for daily pollution of air, so I imagine only place more depressive at this point is somewhere in Scandinavia or Alaska! :-) I have some access to journals via my university library (digital and print), but thanks, and I am having your invitation in that regard on my mind as you mentioned it before. I wish you a good weather and best of time, wherever you decide to go on holiday, and stay safe.--౪ Santa ౪99°16:15, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Resnjar, nji fjalë! I saw this edit you made back in 2018 and I changed the heading to "Origins" instead. Ethnography is very specific field and I don't think it should be used so broadly. I sincerely hope that my edit summary doesn't sound too harsh, online communication is so impersonal that it can lead to misunderstanding. I have also initiated a general discussion about this article on Talk:Shllaku. --Maleschreiber (talk) 22:00, 3 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Maleschreiber. On ethnography, no it’s not a separate discipline, it’s the methodology and research that anthropologist do. As i said in my edit summary "Anthropology is the academic discipline, Ethnography is what they do and what that content falls under." Look, some years ago now in my undergraduate years early last decade i took some subjects in anthropology, on what it is and how it’s done, so i can bore you to death on the discipline, but it is what it is. I did those changes to correct edits done by a now banned sock Ajdebre, aka "Zoupan". I am not against the change you made as the subsection in that article is about origins. However in some other similar articles, those subsections cover both origins and other cultural aspects. You might choose to split them into "origins" or "culture" subsections etc or leave them be. Best.Resnjari (talk) 22:14, 3 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, you're right about that comment on ethnography as method. I was a bit hasty and mistook your intention for the way it is used in other articles about Albanian tribes, as a synonymous for ethnology. --Maleschreiber (talk) 22:41, 3 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You wrote there During his lifetime, Ignác Martinovics stated that his father was either a Serb tavern keeper or an Albanian noble in military service. I interpret the source as saying that he claimed that his father was an Albanian nobleman, while others suspect that his father was a Serbian tavern keeper. In other words, that he only claimed Albanian ancestry for himself. One should be very dumb to claim in the same time that his own father is a nobleman and that his own father is a tavern keeper. Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:51, 21 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ktrimi991, possibly. I made the edit late at night and the sentence at the time appeared to me as saying in the first part that Martinovics claimed his dad is an Albanian. The "or" bit to me looked like an alternative claim he made. Lendvai doesn't specify if its other sources with the or. I may be wrong on this. If you feel it to be the case, change it through possibly breaking the sentence into two with the second bit saying ..."Other sources state that Ignác Martinovics father was a Serbian tavern keeper". Best.Resnjari (talk) 04:31, 23 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Calthinus. :) Lendvai, p.184 [33]. The paragraph is: Martinovics’ ancestors, together with tens of thousands of refugee families from Serbia, came to Hungary at the end of the seventeenth century. Whether, as he claimed, his father was an Albanian nobleman serving in the army or a Serbian tavern-keeper is unclear. Enough to say that lgnac Martinovics, born in 1755 to a pious petty-bourgeois German woman in Buda, entered the Franciscan order aged sixteen at his mother’s urging. He made his vows as a monk, and completed his theological and scientific studies with excellent results, but as early as 1774, frustrated by the life of the order, he asked to be released from the monastery; at the request of the prior he retracted his application, but further conflicts with his superiors and the friars followed. Finally family connections in the army secured him the chaplaincy of an infantry regiment in Czernowitz. Hope this assists. Best.Resnjari (talk) 06:11, 25 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting. The author does not seem to be saying that Ignac himself claimed two different origins for his father -- "Whether, as he claimed, his father was an Albanian nobleman" -- that is his claim, clearly, then, exclusive disjunction xor, "...or a Serbian tavern-keeper". It is the author who is insinuating that Ignac could have been wrong about who his father was. Either (a) Ignac was lying knowingly or not or (b) here is a case of we don't know who the father was cuz scandal scandal cough infidelity cough cough scandal :). Martinovic is a common Serbian name but could be a rendering of (Catholic?) Albanian Martini; the source that claims the father was originally an Orto is Serbian and I haven't investigated it yet for RS. Not sure how to deal with this. We could say "other sources state"........ but the source doesn't say this! Perhaps it should be instead "Lendvai suggests". Nonetheless for what his claimed ethnicity was, it is clear, and it mattered to his life, because the family connections in the army could only be through the Albanian nobleman, not the Serbian tavern keeper, so regardless of speculative scandals and biology, his father per social effect was an Albanian. --Calthinus (talk) 15:01, 25 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Another thing -- the page right now, with non-English Ss has it "during the Great Migration of Serbs" led by Arsenije. But it is not correct to say that (Catholic/Muslim) Kosovar Albanians were involved in this. Instead, the Catholics (and some pro-Hapsburg Muslims per a Bulgarian source; I assume they eventually Christianized but maybe they became part of Hungary's tiny autochtonous Muslim minority) were part of their own, separate migration, that happened concurrently -- see Nevila Pahumi. Whereas the Serbs left "voluntarily" (well the bigheads made all their tribes follow Arsen., right?), the Albs who had fought with Bogdani for the Hapsburgs were in effect expelled as I understand it, and their migration does not appear to have been so organized as the Serbs, hence the later scenes of them starving en masse in the streets of Buda. Regardless of who Ignac' real father was, the Alb nobleman would likely not have come in the organized Serbian migration -- especially if he were, as it seems, a military man, which is specifically the sort of Albanians who were forced out.--Calthinus (talk) 15:09, 25 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps does anyone have access to Islam Hizvi and Mark Krasniqi's 2012 Aspekti etnik i migrimeve : shqiptarët në rrjedhat e shpërnguljeve të dhunshme ? --Calthinus (talk) 15:39, 25 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Scholarship has noted that part of the Kelmendi went north with the Serbs [34] (pp.32-34). Whether or not Martinovics father was one of them, who knows. Maybe the father was a bajraktar (highland chieftain) and to an Austrian audience who might not have a clue as to what that is, Martinovics may have translated that as "nobleman" for them. In another similar tribal system at the time, in Scotland, they had some highland chieftains who were nobles in the political system. So these kinds of things are not farfetched. On the surname, some northern Albanians have used and still use "iq" at the end of their surnames, which is clearly due to Slavonic influence. It would not be surprising in this instance if that was the case. On Lendvai, i leave it to you Calthinus and Ktrimi991 as to what he meant exactly.Resnjari (talk) 09:07, 28 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I have noticed your tremendous amount of contributions on articles with Albanian related topics. I'm surprised that you didn't already receive this barnstar years ago. For your much appreciated work, accept this well-deserved award. N.Hoxha (talk) 21:40, 23 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
G'day all, March Madness 2020 is about to get underway, and there is bling aplenty for those who want to get stuck into the backlog by way of tagging, assessing, updating, adding or improving resources and creating articles. If you haven't already signed up to participate, why not? The more the merrier! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:19, 29 February 2020 (UTC) for the coord team[reply]
Hey, I moved Shoshi from "region" to "tribe", but I hadn't seen that you had done the opposite move about a year ago. I'm ambivalent about the best case scenario, but I went with "tribe" because the region comes "after" the tribe and also for some consistency reasons. It's a deserted area either way, so the article is historical in all aspects. Maybe some day people return to live there again.--Maleschreiber (talk) 01:06, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
A civil question below my DS alert would have got you the explanation you want. An aggressive removal of my post does not have that effect. Did you think it would? Do you realize I'm a volunteer like you? Another thing you could have done was take the time to follow the explanatory links in the DS alert. Bishonen | tålk15:09, 26 April 2020 (UTC).[reply]
Hi @Bishonen:, i didn't mean anything by removing it, but, one your an admin and two the message is about discretionary sanctions. I have not interacted with you and i am not engaged at any noticeboards over anything. My curiosity makes me asks what prompted me receiving this message on my talkpage as they are not given out just like that. Also is this message going out to all others who edit Eastern European/Balkan topics, or just me? If i did something that i am not aware but contravene guidelines or policy, i rather be told upfront. I have consulted those links and their pages before.Resnjari (talk) 15:30, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I know you have — you got the same alert in 2018, and removed it as promptly and angrily. Anyway, in a sense, they are given out just like that. As it says at the top of the template, "it does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date." Italics and bold are in the original sentence, in the hope that people will see it. Anyway, the reason I gave you the alert is that I watch El C's talkpage (as I watch many other admins' pages) and noticed what I thought a rather angry exchange there about a conflict at Reaction in Greece to the Yugoslav Wars. I would have given Ktrimi991 one as well, except that he already has one from December 2019. They're not supposed to be added more often than once a year. Perhaps I should have given Dr.K. one, though — I was assuming he'd know all about DS, but perhaps I shouldn't have assumed. OK, he's got an alert now. Bishonen | tålk16:04, 26 April 2020 (UTC).[reply]
Headbomb, haven't been around in a while. Fixed the ref issue. Source was cited (Brown, 2001), it was just the wrong year for the others linking to it), typo on my part when i copied and pasted the ref template from a previous source. Thanks for the heads on the ref issue and the errors script for alerts. Best.Resnjari (talk) 20:12, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Check this ultranationalist IP’s rant out [here] The irony is astounding. 16:38, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
It gets better, they think we are long time Albanian nationalist team of vandals. Even though I don’t really know you. See here [1] and here [2] Absolutely mental. OyMosby (talk) 21:11, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @OyMosby:. Nice to meet you. I've been called all sorts of things over the years to the point that some have called me nationalist from a Macedonian, a Serb, or Greek background as well. At least some have a clumsy go with humour when trolling. It's the Balkan topics area and to be expected. In the end just smile. :) Anyway as admin @Peacemaker says, ignore the IP and if it appears the WP:NATIONALIST trolling and name calling is from a former editor, they will blunder as they did before. One thing is clear, the IP is WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia. Best.Resnjari (talk) 08:36, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Cinadon36: and thanks. How have you been? On my end, things in real life are going back to as they were. After the craziness of last year in Melbourne, a return to some kind of normal is much appreciated. :) Resnjari (talk) 09:24, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
G'day there, I noticed that you have knowledge about Albanians in Australia and their mosques. Do you happen to have a full list of Albanian mosques there? Thanks. Alltan (talk) 21:37, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Alltan, i don't have the full list, if Sydney is included. There was talk of an Albanian mosque being built in Sydney. Not sure what has happened on that front. Otherwise the rest are known. One is in Marreba, Queensland (Mareeba Mosque) and the other in Shepparton, Victoria: (Shepparton Mosque). Melbourne has 3. Two i wrote articles about: Carlton Mosque and Dandenong Mosque. There is a third in Reservoir. I didn’t write an article about it because there were not enough sources for it to constitute as a standalone article. I know its personal history though. In the early 2000s, some Prespa Albs in Melbourne were saying that the Carlton mosque had no space or was getting crowded. As a young kid i remember when the fundraising happened among Prespa Albs at that time. Initially a vacant property was bought at the suburb of Narre Warren. Back then it was on the expanding urban fringe and as then and now, far from where most Prespa Albs live. Prespa Albs then found someone from the Albanian community who had a large vacant property block and they exchanged the Narre Warren property for that land. Thereafter they built the mosque. My cousins from Dolenci served as imams, first Qenan and later his brother Qemal who was there till early last year until he retired. Both brothers, now in their early 40s were liberal in their interpretations of Islam. Dr. Bekim Hasani became the new imam a little while later after the covid situation broke out. The mosque opens only on Friday. Its congregation includes mainly a minority of elderly Albanian Prespar men and the overwhelming majority being Lebanese Sunnis, Somalis, Indonesians/Malays, Afghans, Iraqi Sunnis and so on. Non Albanian communities for years have wanted the mosque to open throughout the week but the Albanian run mosque board has resisted those calls. The mosque location does not make sense for the Albanian Prespa community, as most live in the Western suburbs with a small number in the north. Only during Ramadan do Albanian numbers swell in Reservoir mosque. In Melbourne the mosque which is used most by Albs is the one at Carlton. Not the mosque itself but its facilities built near to it where Albanian language classes are taught, and other community cultural activates happen in a non religious, secular liberal environment. I wrote the mosque articles because, as with most non Anglo-Celtic communities, the main markers of their presence in Australia, of "having made it" in the country is often erecting a cultural or religious building that serves the community in one way or another. Albanians only have mosques in that sense.
I also wanted to find out about the Albanian community. I was raised in an area where the population was until recently mainly Macedonians (newcomers are now increasingly middle easterners from the neighbouring suburbs and Afghans), and i lived far away from where there are Albanians, still do. As such, when growing up, my interactions were limited with Albs and with Islam. The family (i.e grandparents) barely did anything Islamic and Islam for my parents was a no, no. I believe in no deity and as a non-religious person, it has been interesting researching and writing about these topics. Islam fascinates me in the role it has played in keeping Albanians as a somewhat cohesive group and allowing them to exist as Albanians, whereas other religions have played roles in making Albanian speaking people into Arvanites, Northern Epirotes, but definitely not Albanians. Anyway, I have a little more to go, but i have almost finished revamping the Albanian Australians article and will upload my additions in the not too distant future which will outline the Alb experience in Australia of migration and settlement. Best Resnjari (talk) 04:59, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, i saw under some discussion pages about Chams that you are quite knowledgeable about Albanian history and Greek-Albanian linguistic contact zone. I am interested in pre-20th century linguistic distribution of Albanian language in Greek northwest region and also vice-versa, would you be able to tell me more about the subject? For example, which villages or settlements had an Albanian and which Greek speaking population, and how did that change over time? The information and sources i have are very conflicting and confusing, theres always nationalist biases on both sides, and besides sadly i do not speak Greek or Albanian either to be able to use their sources.
Also please let me know if there is some other place better than here to be able to discuss this topic, maybe discord or e-mail, i'm not a wikipedia editor or anything like that so i'm not quite sure how things work here or if this question belongs. Thanks in advance for any help. 95.176.130.122 (talk) 23:08, 12 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Resnjari, I noticed some your contributions to Wikipedia articles, and especially about Reka. I appreciate that you are objective about such complicated articles. I am a Macedonian muslim from Dolna Reka who is very interested in the Upper Reka's question. I can say that, even in a different way, also Macedonian Muslims are treated in a similar way like the Albanian speaking population of Upper Reka, because we care called "Torbesh" as they are called "Shkreti", both harsh and offensive words. Macedonian muslims, even if in Dolna Reka have a major Macedonian selfawareness, have in general a problematic self identification and do not know the real meaning of "Torbesh", a word which was used by Macedonian christians. I also read something about the controversial Vidoe Smilevski, about which in reality Branko Manojlovski said he was half Albanian, from the mother Velika, because Vidoe's father was a Macedonian from Nikiforovo.
I believe that with balanced people like you, one day it will be possible to at least try to achieve calm.
Regards. Mijak reka (talk) 17:30, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion will take place at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Albania–Australia relations (2nd nomination) until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.
Mirëmbrëma (ose mirëmëngjes), rastësisht e lexova emrin “Resnjari” dhe si ohrixhan që jam, doja të të bëja një përshëndetje të vogël si fqinjë që jemi. :) Punë të mbarë dhe shpresoj të bashkëpunojmë këtu ndonjëherë. Tung! Ein Pädagoge (talk) 20:07, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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