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Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 1

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September 1

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Category:Fauna of Queensland

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Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 10#Category:Fauna of Queensland

Category:The Shaggs tribute albums

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: No consensus here and given the repeated "no consensus" and "keep" closures elsewhere there's no point in relisting since there's clearly not going to be a consensus to delete * Pppery * it has begun... 15:57, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Only one article. No need for this diffusion. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 07:43, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 20:24, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:11th-century establishments in Ukraine

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:09, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:ARBITRARYCAT / WP:NARROWCAT. "Ukraine" didn't exist yet, but Kievan Rus' did. These categories largely have the same contents anyway. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 00:29, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Can you cite any sources for that change, or is that your own WP:OR? Marcelus (talk) 07:13, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, resolves anachronism. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:00, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as always, as the "anachronism" and similar viewpoints look at this from one perspective only (how was it called then), not from another, equally valid (how is it called now). "When did the things in current Ukraine or the things that shaped the history of what is now Ukraine get established" is a natural question, the history of a country doesn't start when it is formally named or established but long before. Fram (talk) 07:32, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 14:52, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 20:21, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Categories with disallowed fraction characters

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename Category:4 ft 10⅞ in gauge railways to Category:Toronto-gauge railways, delete Category:12⅝ in gauge railways. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:48, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: The characters ⅜, ⅝, and ⅞ are disallowed by MOS:FRAC because they do not reliably work with screen readers. After discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Fractions in category names, it seems the ASCII representation is preferred in these situations. I updated the MOS and am making this nomination to get final approval from a slightly wider audience. Also fixed non-compliance with MOS:UNITS; whitespace is required between number and unit. -- Beland (talk) 02:03, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(BTW, as of the 1 Aug 2023 database dump, these are the only categories with these characters. -- Beland (talk) 02:05, 15 August 2023 (UTC))[reply]
Turns out the 4ft 8⅜in categories have been moved to Category:1432 mm gauge railways and friends as a result of the MOS:FRAC discussion. -- Beland (talk) 02:10, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Category:12⅝ in gauge railways is a WP:SMALLCAT. Aren't there any others than only Midland Beach Railway Company? I suppose not: The gauge of the locomotive was a unique 12+5⁄8 in (321 mm). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 08:54, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As per a comment I've just added to that discussion, I tested the page with NVDA (a popular screen reader), and found that ⅞ was read fine - better than "7/8" which is read "seven divided by eight". This was a very quick and dirty test, so I think it would be helpful if someone with access to other screen readers could test to see if they have been updated since the original MOS:FRAC guidance. It would be a shame if we make this change in the name of accessibility and end up making things worse. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 14:20, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 14:46, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: What to do with Category:12⅝ in gauge railways?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 20:21, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:11th-century women rulers

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Split. Galobtter (talk) 22:41, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: This better describes the lives of these medieval women. I'm suggesting a split into no fewer than 8 new categories. Follow-up to Category:5th-century women rulers (Split), 2nd-century BC women rulers (Split), 3rd-century BC women rulers (Split), and 4th-century BC women rulers (Split). The "6th-century women rulers" CfS closed as "Split" as well; the "7th-century women rulers" CfS, the "8th-century women rulers" CfS, the "9th-century women rulers" CfS, and the "10th-century women rulers" CfS are still ongoing.
Proposed split into 8 new categories
Women regents
Empresses regnant
Empresses consort
Queens regnant
Queens consort
Duchesses consort
Countesses regnant
Countesses consort
Doubtful cases

Notes: When biographies say so-and-so was the ruling duchess/countess of Fooland, always check what that means. If it is because her father and brothers died and so she inherited Fooland, that makes her a duchess/countess regnant (suo jure). But when biographies say so-and-so was the ruling duchess/countess of Fooland during the minority of her son, that means she was a duchess/countess consort + a woman regent, not a duchess/countess regnant. Regent ≠ regnant.

Also note the end-of-century mark. Example: Gerberga, Countess of Provence was countess consort until her husband died in 1108, so we can't categorise her as "11th-century countesses regnant", but only as "12th-century countesses regnant".

For the purposes of preventing WP:SMALLCATs, I am classifying "margravines" ("march-countesses") and "viscountesses/vicomtesses" ("vice-countesses") as "countesses". If any of these become large enough for their own categories, they can always be split off later. I am classifying Jimena Díaz (widow of El Cid) as "queen regnant" rather than "lady" (per article "lady of Valencia") or "princess" (per El Cid's article "prince of Valencia"), because all other rulers of the Taifa of Valencia are either called "king" or "emir" (the Arabic equivalent of "king"). I suppose we could call her an "emira", but that would also create a 1-item Smallcat, so let's just go with "queen regnant". Other doubtful cases have come with recommendations.

Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:42, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 14:27, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose any "consort" categor being here: consorts weren't rulers out of definition. Oppose others out of possible WP:OR, for example: Urraca of Zamora wasn't "countesses regnant", she was none of the sources describe her as such, she and her sister were given possession of the so-called infantados, a complex of monasteries that belonged to her and her sister by virtue of being infantas, they held them until their marriage. She also received the towns of Zamora and Elvira, but not by virtue of being an infanta. We do not know what title she bore. Calling her a countess is not confirmed in the sources. Similarly, Anne of Kiev was married to a count after her first husband's death, but she held power by virtue of being her royal son's regent. The Garsende of Béziers was a viscountess, not a countess. Mariam of Vaspurakan was a ruler by virtue of being a regent, not queen etc. If we want to isolate a category, it could be Category:11th-century women regents. The division proposed by the OP is wrong and OR. Marcelus (talk) 21:07, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Marcelus: it is not clear to me what exactly you are opposing. The proposed split will solve the issue that consorts do not belong here. I have argued the same, plus I have argued that regents are a different class as well. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:11, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    My argument is this: I am against the removal of Category:11th-century women rulers because it is a useful category, gathering women exercising actual supreme power in a country. @Nederlandse Leeuw proposed split will result in women actually exercising power (e.g. as regents) being assigned to the "x consort" category, which by definition gathers those not exercising actual power. Moreover, NL's proposed split is WP:OR and in fact most of the cases I have checked prove this, e.g. NL proposes to move Sayyida Shirin to the "queens consort" category, when in fact she was an emira. For these two reasons, the proposed change is unacceptable. Marcelus (talk) 17:25, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Nederlandse Leeuw has proposed a women regents category too, so any consorts who have been regents can be put in this category. I don't think this needs to be a reason for disagreement. Your second argument is more of an issue, because do we really want to split this by every possible title? That is also why I said "at least three" because I am in doubt whether splitting it further adds much value. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:44, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      First of all I don't want to split anything. But if you need to split it for some reason, you cannot put someone who wasn't a queen, to a queen category. I think that's pretty straightforward. Plenty of these characters did not carry any specific title, or any of those listed (queen, duchess, etc.), so to pin them down by force to them is misleading and simply OR. The "women rulers" category is simply very useful. Marcelus (talk) 20:23, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 20:16, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Rabbis by country

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Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 10#Category:Rabbis by country

Category:Culture of Mayotte

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: keep. Other categories no longer use adjective format. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 18:06, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Other similar category names follow the adjective format (African culture, Malagasy culture, etc.). Zanahary (talk) 15:33, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Related discussion was relisted.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 20:13, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Tornadoes in Canada by date

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. ✗plicit 01:42, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: delete in the spirit of WP:SHAREDNAME, these are apparently articles with a date in the article title. A merge is not needed, the articles are already in Category:Tornadoes in Ontario etc. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:31, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Background: This category, along with Category:Tornadoes in Canada by location, was intended as a way to resolve the mess that's seen in existing categories such as Category:Tornadoes in Canada or Category:Tornadoes in Ontario, where the entries in those categories are in no specific order at all, neither date nor location, because the category name gives no guidance as to a suitable ordering of the category keys (some entries are listed under T for Tornado, some listed by date if that happens to be the first word of the article, some under L for list, some under the name of the location, and other variants too). The intention was to populate the two subcategories with items from the larger category, which would then consist of only of the subcategories. However, this work was left incomplete. This is also a problem with tornado categories in the US - an example is Category:Tornadoes in Georgia (U.S. state). Colonies Chris (talk) 22:39, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(continued): Looking at this more closely, it seems that the problem of indexing by location has since been resolved by the creation of the tornadoes in province subcategories. Within these, ideally, articles would be ordered by date, though that's pretty patchy. Currently, not all the articles in Category:Tornadoes in Canada by date are also categorised by province (e.g. Tornado outbreak of June 5–6, 2010 should be in Category:Tornadoes in Ontario) - once that has been done, the category in question would indeed be redundant. In fact, Category:Tornadoes in Canada by location is also potentially redundant, as it consists solely of province subcategories that could just be promoted to subcategories of Category:Tornadoes in Canada. Colonies Chris (talk) 01:59, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 20:12, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Songs in Fooian part 1

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename * Pppery * it has begun... 15:57, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:C2C. Follow-up to recent renaming of siblings Category:Songs in Latin (link) and Category:Songs in Hindi (link) (see also (Category:Hawaiian songs and Category:Latin-language Christian hymns). This CfR is for songs in languages whose name cannot be mixed up with a nationality or ethnicity, and whose articles (just like Latin and Hindi) don't have the word "language" in the title: Afrikaans, Amharic, Arabic, Aramaic, Judaeo-Spanish, Malayalam, Urdu, and Yiddish. Thus, "-language" is a redundant addition to these catnames. This nomination is intended as a stepping stone towards the renaming of all Category:Songs by language; I expect this proposal to be easier, and that agreement on this proposal will make the next step easier. NLeeuw (talk) 13:38, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Marcocapelle, Jc37, Srnec, and Qwerfjkl: pinging participants from previous discussion for follow-up, for your consideration. Cheers, NLeeuw (talk) 13:52, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Hymns by language

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename * Pppery * it has begun... 16:01, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Follow up to Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 22#Category:Latin-language Christian hymns; pinging participants there @Nederlandse Leeuw, @Marcocapelle, @jc37. Qwerfjkltalk 09:48, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Srnec pinging you as well, as you were instrumental (no pun intended) to the "Songs in Latin" precedent. NLeeuw (talk) 13:54, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Getai people

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. Arguments for keeping were unconvincing and not policy-based. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 18:08, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: It's quite possible that I don't quite get what "Getai people" is intended to mean but this seems like a classic case of WP:PERFCAT. Pichpich (talk) 02:56, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Ambassadors of Guatemala to Taiwan

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Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 September 10#Category:Ambassadors of Guatemala to Taiwan

Category:Undesirable Wiki Ed Articles

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete * Pppery * it has begun... 15:57, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: This category, with its unclear scope or purpose, only seems to be for the use of the category creator, User:Abishekdascs. I removed inappropriately categorized User pages but was reverted so I'm sending this case to CFD. Liz Read! Talk! 00:49, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy delete per WP:G2, based on what creator wrote on their talk page. Marcocapelle (talk) 02:28, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy delete per WP:G2. Pichpich (talk) 03:05, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose : Purpose: This category will contains articles that are marked as discouraged for selection in Wiki Education courses. Articles in this category have historically shown challenges in student assignments, with limited improvement over time. While students can still choose to work on these articles, they are encouraged to consider the historical context and potential difficulties associated with these topics. This category will serves as a cautionary resource to guide students and instructors in making informed decisions when selecting articles for assignments.

In simple words this category will be useful for https://dashboard.wikiedu.org/. So, that students or instructor will be able to mark an article under this category so it will discourage a student from choosing one of these articles to work on, and it annoys the editors of such articles.As, such Wikipedia articles rarely lead to significant improvement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abishekdascs (talk • contribs) 05:38, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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