Inscurtible explanation given upon close, was not able to extract a sufficient explanation from the closer on their talk page so here we are (please excuse if there are errors in the formatting, I am a regular at deletion discussions but a novice at contesting them) Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:36, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. Once you discard the non-P&G-based !votes, you're left with no quorum to take any action, let alone consensus to do so. Merge and Redirect are great alternatives to deletion, but in the absence of consensus against keeping the article, they are not valid alternatives to retention. Closing that AfD as anything other than no-consensus would have been a supervote. I also commend Asilvering for their patience and civility in the face of incessant bludgeoning by the appellant on their Talk page. Owen×☎23:47, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@OwenX: can you explain how a redirect is an alternative to deletion not a type of deletion? Often after I see a discussion closed as delete the page is turned into a redirect, is that not supposed to happen? Note that the substance of the redirect vote is "No compelling reason that it should exist." which leaves me to wonder how three editors (myself, Conyo14, and Geschichte) don't make a quorum opposed to retention. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:51, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No compelling reason that it should exist is not a P&G-based argument against retention, and Conyo14 didn't even argue for deletion. One !vote isn't quorum. Owen×☎00:06, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They said nothing of the sort. You are trying to ascribe your own views to them. Neither you nor the closing admin is a mind-reader. Let's stick to what was actually said there. Owen×☎01:10, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"but nevertheless the article might not maintain WP:GNG." followed by "I mean I've only found the one source" (indicating that they have not been able to establish that the article meets GNG) and you didn't address the point about QUORUM. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:48, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing of WP:QUORUM is met, apart from the fact no one ever tried to PROD it. Someone opposed deletion and the AfD had decent participation. QUORUM is for instances where there's an AfD with little to no participation outside of the nominator. SportingFlyerT·C02:13, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, their argument isn't. They're saying not enough people agreed to delete this in order to have an alternative result to "no consensus." They are not quoting the Wikipedia policy on poorly attended AfDs. SportingFlyerT·C02:44, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since when do you need more than one person to agree if there are no policy or guideline based arguments that disagree? What quorum is that then and where is it written down? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 03:48, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're asking the closer to conclude your interpretation of the AfD is the only correct interpretation, which is not how the AfD process works. Given the nature of that discussion, a delete close would clearly be a WP:SUPERVOTE, especially considering no one else specifically agreed with you. SportingFlyerT·C20:03, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse I don't see any other way this could have been closed, honestly. Furthermore, reading the closer's talk page, you were able to extract a sufficient explanation from the closer. Trying to claim this should be overturned for not getting a sufficient explanation is not only not a reason to overturn a close, it's wrong on its face. SportingFlyerT·C00:09, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse No correct deletion rationale was articulated. SKCRIT#3 applied the entire time, as "not participating in the war" is not a rationale supporting "not notable" which would, if true, be a rational reason for deletion. Really, it would be nice if some of our new admins could go around patrolling AfD for similar inadequate rationales and just closing the discussions (even NPASR, although I think RENOM's waiting period is an appropriate consequence to discourage frivolous nominations) so as to not waste time. Even if "NN" was a valid standalone rationale, no BEFORE was described--again, lack of effort on the nominator putting a greater burden on everyone else in the process. Disappointing all the way around. Jclemens (talk) 04:39, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse Two wanted to delete it, two wanted to keep it, one said redirect it, another said merge it, and one didn't vote at all. No consensus to delete. DreamFocus05:43, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse close as no consensus. Not seeing a consensus to do anything emerging in this AfD after two relistings, and I can't see how it could have been closed differently. Espresso Addict (talk) 08:25, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. There is a numerical majority to not keep the article (4 delete/WP:ATD vs. 2 keep), however there were no compelling, policy-based arguments to delete or even merge. No consensus was certainly a viable option and possibly the best option. As the closing admin stated, a merge discussion can be held at the article's talk page. FrankAnchor14:02, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No proponent of delete/merge made the argument that there was a lack of significant coverage, so such an argument can not be considered. The arguments made were I don’t think this is notable in the nom statement, No compelling reason that it should exist without any justification in Geschichte's redirect vote, a somewhat-valid WP:NOPAGE argument by Buckshot06, stating that the equipment can be listed in an already-existing list article, and a delete argument that explains there is no policy-based reason to keep the article but fails to make a policy-based argument to not keep it. FrankAnchor16:17, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How is that not a policy-based argument to not keep it? No reason to keep is a reason to delete because not being notable is the default, demonstrating that it is notable is the responsibility of those arguing for notability (and is generally accomplished by providing in-depth coverage in independent reliable sources) and they failed at that. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:21, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are plenty of arguments against notability. None of them were made in the AfD. Not that we're a court or anything, but you can't raise an issue on appeal that should have been argued, but wasn't, in the prior proceeding. Closers are to evaluate the arguments made, not the arguments that should, could, or might have been made. Jclemens (talk) 07:46, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I clearly see that there is endorsement for the close (although the grounds appear to differ as they normally do), for my own education could you please explain how the plain reading of WP:N is incorrect and there is no burden to demonstrate notability. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 07:51, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The burden is on those who recommend deletion to show that this action is the right action. Articles existing is the stable equilibrium. You need to introduce force to the system to get something moving. The force is the argument that there is a reason to delete, and if the specific variant of that argument is that a list topic is non-notable, the arguments needs to explain that the necessary conditions for notability weren't fulfilled. —Alalch E.09:57, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's what those before you should have said but didn't, and you didn't notice that they hadn't said it, and then you didn't say it either, meaning that no one said the only thing that needs to be said. —Alalch E.07:06, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, now I see that you did say I have not been able to locate any independent significant coverage of the topic and there is none on the page, so unless I'm missing something it doesn't meet the requirements of a stand alone list, which is a fine argument. —Alalch E.10:28, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. If you think it's appropriate to close an AfD with two keep votes, a redirect, a merge, and only a single affirmation for deletion as anything other than "no consensus", you're welcome to take it to WP:DRV for a sanity check" from the talk page (from the talk page)—bad explanation. That is not why there was no consensus. There was no consensus because we don't know why the page should be deleted. Should it be deleted ... because Turkey hardly participated in WW2 ... but it did, kind of? Comments like: I don’t think this is notable, No compelling reason that it should exist, or There is currently no policy or guideline based argument for keeping the article don't contain enough information about why the page should be deleted.Edit: I am striking a part of my comment, as my assessment of this discussion has changed after finally reading Horse Eye's Back's comment under the nomination (sorry for missing it the first time). This could have been closed as redirect. I can't advocate overturning because a no consensus close was still reasonable and under discretion. I disagree with many statements that underpin and endorse this particular close, and what I don't agree the most with is the mention of "quorum" (... I'm starting to gripe about this, I'm aware) —Alalch E.07:03, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
By all means, how many valid, P&G-based Delete !votes do you see in that AfD? I see one. That would not normally be sufficient for a closing admin to take action, unless it was unopposed, which wasn't the case here. Quorum, like consensus, isn't based on counting noses, but on weighing P&G-based arguments. If an argument like "No reason to keep this" doesn't count towards consensus, it doesn't count towards quorum either. With one legitimate !vote to delete, the best we can do with this AfD is treat it as a contested PROD. Owen×☎18:06, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
