Wikipedia:Possibly unfree files/2010 September 6

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September 6[edit]

File:The_Adrenaline_Project.jpg[edit]

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The result of the discussion was: marked fair use, {{subst:nsd}}, {{subst:nrd}}. Magog the Ogre (talk) 19:19, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:The Adrenaline Project.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

Screenshot - NOT nessacrily self as uploader claims Sfan00 IMG (talk) 00:09, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Shambles_Volume_1_-_Indi_Fisher.png[edit]

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Magog the Ogre (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 20:32, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Shambles Volume 1 - Indi Fisher.png (delete | talk | history | logs).

Album Cover Sfan00 IMG (talk) 00:12, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Shambles_Volume_2_Indi_Fisher.png[edit]

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Magog the Ogre (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 20:32, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Shambles Volume 2 Indi Fisher.png (delete | talk | history | logs).

Album cover Sfan00 IMG (talk) 00:13, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Ormanligiamblem.PNG[edit]

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The result of the discussion was: marked fair use, {{subst:nsd}}, {{subst:nrd}}. Magog the Ogre (talk) 19:21, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Ormanligiamblem.PNG (delete | talk | history | logs).

Logo - So not nessacrily self as uploader claims Sfan00 IMG (talk) 00:18, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Cotroceni1.jpg[edit]

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The result of the discussion was: deleted as replaceable fair use anyway. Magog the Ogre (talk) 19:02, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Cotroceni1.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

pretty clear it's not currency - link is dead, without that it's not possible to determine the correct license Skier Dude (talk 03:29, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

adding File:Ilustratie citymall shopping~.jpg Skier Dude (talk 03:39, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Dacia Mioveni.png[edit]

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The result of the discussion was: marked fair use. Magog the Ogre (talk) 19:23, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Dacia Mioveni.png (delete | talk | history | logs).

FC logo; no source; if legit, uploader wouldn't be (c) holder Skier Dude (talk 03:38, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Kazem HajirAzad in End of Game- 2010 (2) - photo by Naser Sajadi Hoseini.JPG[edit]

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 01:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Kazem HajirAzad in End of Game- 2010 (2) - photo by Naser Sajadi Hoseini.JPG (delete | talk | history | logs).

appears to be a screenshot of an unnamed/sourced film Skier Dude (talk 05:34, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Guardian of Neptune by Serenalynn.jpg[edit]

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The result of the discussion was: kept but marked {{subst:npd}}. Magog the Ogre (talk) 19:07, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Guardian of Neptune by Serenalynn.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

sourced from deviantart.com which does not have a CC release; no ORTS Skier Dude (talk 05:43, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Tsavo Maneaters Field Museum.jpg[edit]

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The result of the discussion was: keep US-not renewed. Magog the Ogre (talk) 17:29, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Tsavo Maneaters Field Museum.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

I don't see proper evidence this is public domain in the US. Magog the Ogre (talk) 07:33, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Man-eaters of Tsavo suggests a 1907 first publication date and the LOC claims to have a copy of the 1907 edition, so {{PD-US-1923-abroad}} seems right. Not suitable for Commons though as Patterson died in 1947, so the 70y PMA UK copyright term has some time to run. Angus McLellan (Talk) 11:23, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One flaw in the logic above is that even though this image appears on the cover of a modern reprint of The Man-eaters of Tsavo, it doesn't appear in the 1907 edition which can be viewed at archive.org. But actually, searching the renewal records, this is simpler than it appeared to be. There is no renewal record for the 1925 pamphlet this was taken from, so {{PD-US-not renewed}} will do. Angus McLellan (Talk) 13:06, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wait, Was this first published in the US or the UK? If it was published in the UK first without being published in the US for 30 days, then the copyright did not have to be renewed. It was restored in the 1996 Geneva agreements. This table here shows that: [1]. Magog the Ogre (talk) 02:27, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently in Chicago in 1925. It doesn't appear in Patterson's book and indeed the photograph doesn't resemble those in the book. His are all shot in the wild, this is in a museum (or zoo?). Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:02, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:The Original Paganini Quartet.jpg[edit]

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 01:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:The Original Paganini Quartet.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

Sourcing is not specific enough to determine if this is PD or not. Magog the Ogre (talk) 07:56, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Teresa de la Parra.jpg[edit]

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The result of the discussion was: closed as image already present on commons. Magog the Ogre (talk) 02:55, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Teresa de la Parra.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

Although unlikely, there is simply not enough information on the page to prove this is PD in the US. Magog the Ogre (talk) 08:06, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Although commons:COM:L doesn't list Venezuela, there is a template commons:template:PD-Venezuela which tells us that Venezuela has a 60 year pp term for photographs. Since this is signed by Teresa de la Parra in Spanish it is likely to predate her moving to Paris. Should therefore be PD-US. Angus McLellan (Talk) 15:26, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Stjohns.jpg[edit]

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 01:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Stjohns.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

Site too unspecific to determine PD status Magog the Ogre (talk) 08:20, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Southern Colonels 1933-34.jpg[edit]

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 01:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Southern Colonels 1933-34.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

I see no proper indication this is public domain Magog the Ogre (talk) 08:31, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Sir Robert Appleby Bartram.png[edit]

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 01:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Sir Robert Appleby Bartram.png (delete | talk | history | logs).

there is simply not enough information to prove this image is in the public domain. Magog the Ogre (talk) 08:46, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Sir John Priestman.PNG[edit]

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 01:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Sir John Priestman.PNG (delete | talk | history | logs).

see above. Magog the Ogre (talk) 08:53, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Patient_Care_Foothills_Hospital_Calgary_1966.jpg[edit]

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Magog the Ogre (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 20:32, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Patient Care Foothills Hospital Calgary 1966.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

Poster- so not nessacrily self as uploader claims Sfan00 IMG (talk) 09:40, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Optimo.JPG[edit]

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 01:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Optimo.JPG (delete | talk | history | logs).

Possible 2D artwork - So not nessacrily self as uploader claims Sfan00 IMG (talk) 09:43, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:SamB_in_2007.jpg[edit]

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 01:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:SamB in 2007.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

2D Artwork- possibly album cover - Not nessacrily self as uploader claims Sfan00 IMG (talk) 09:52, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Sam_B_in_october2007.jpg[edit]

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 01:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Sam B in october2007.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

2D Artwork - Possibly album cover - NOT Nessacrily self as uploader claims Sfan00 IMG (talk) 09:55, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Paco.png[edit]

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Magog the Ogre (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 22:32, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Paco.png (delete | talk | history | logs).

Badge or crest - Not nessacrily self as claimed by uploader. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 09:57, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:RSLAFLSM_1979.jpg[edit]

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 01:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:RSLAFLSM 1979.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

Medal design - No further information given, so not sue if this can be claimed self as uploader does Sfan00 IMG (talk) 10:13, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - see my comment on submission below. Magog the Ogre (talk) 20:48, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:PSP_SL.jpg[edit]

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 01:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:PSP SL.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

Medal design - No further information provided so impossible to say if this qualifys for self as uploader claims Sfan00 IMG (talk) 10:16, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - colors are probably {{pd-ineligible}}, and the medal itself is hard enough to distinguish that I doubt it would pass the threshold of originality, at least in US law. Magog the Ogre (talk) 20:45, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Sabiexperience_logo.jpg[edit]

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The result of the discussion was: delete. Without further explanation, it's impossible to determine copyright status. Magog the Ogre (talk) 19:13, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Sabiexperience logo.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

Logo - No further information provided so not possible to determine if can be self as uploader claims. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 10:19, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:ClubCrestwhite.jpg[edit]

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 01:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:ClubCrestwhite.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

Team logo not likely owned by the uploader. Eeekster (talk) 10:48, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Steve_&_Scott.jpg[edit]

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Magog the Ogre (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 20:32, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Steve & Scott.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

Pormotional artwork - No additional information provided so impossible to see if this is self as uploader claims. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 10:59, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Golden-Resources-Mall.jpg[edit]

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 01:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Golden-Resources-Mall.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

Clearly a Google image.. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 11:00, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Uruguay2030.gif[edit]

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 01:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Uruguay2030.gif (delete | talk | history | logs).

Clearly logo Sfan00 IMG (talk) 11:19, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Tsomzkdlx.jpg[edit]

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Magog the Ogre (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 20:32, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Tsomzkdlx.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

Album cover - Insuffcient information to prove self as uploader claims Sfan00 IMG (talk) 12:34, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Scicomm_cover.jpg[edit]

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 01:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Scicomm cover.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

Clearly Book cover- Not enough information to confirm self as uploader claims Sfan00 IMG (talk) 12:36, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:SpartakIF.gif[edit]

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 01:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:SpartakIF.gif (delete | talk | history | logs).

Logo - Not enough ingotmation to be sure it falls under the criteria for the license given Sfan00 IMG (talk) 13:26, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Scardon.jpg[edit]

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) A file with this name on Commons is now visible. AnomieBOT ⚡ 01:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Scardon.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

I don't see anything indicating this is necessarily in the public domain; the licensing is not relevant in the US. Magog the Ogre (talk) 13:31, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:DynamoSimferopol.PNG[edit]

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 01:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:DynamoSimferopol.PNG (delete | talk | history | logs).

Logo - Not sure if it meets the criteria for the license given Sfan00 IMG (talk) 13:32, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - appears to be a soccer team logo, and would probably fit the description symbols and signs of enterprises, institutions and organizations. Magog the Ogre (talk) 19:36, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Santisimo Rosario Parish.jpg[edit]

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 01:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Santisimo Rosario Parish.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

Not currently showing up on source given originally by uploader, but similar images are marked non-commercial only: e.g., [2]. Magog the Ogre (talk) 13:44, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:SICP Main Bldg.jpg[edit]

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 01:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:SICP Main Bldg.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

source is down, and public domain tag is not relevant for a US work. Magog the Ogre (talk) 13:56, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Rondout.jpg[edit]

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The result of the discussion was: withdrawn, source found. Magog the Ogre (talk) 14:28, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Rondout.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

I cannot locate this image at source, and information on this page is not specific enough to establish public domain. pd-old-50 is not a relevant marker for a US based image. Magog the Ogre (talk) 14:01, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Riethmuller at Turramurra.jpg[edit]

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 01:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Riethmuller at Turramurra.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

the copyright tag is not relevant to either Australia or US (neither does it appears to be correct for a 1960 photo), and the information included with the upload is not clear this is public domain. Magog the Ogre (talk) 14:07, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Phoenicia depot.jpg[edit]

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The result of the discussion was: withdrawn - source updated. Magog the Ogre (talk) 20:28, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Phoenicia depot.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

Sourcing information insufficient to determine PD. Magog the Ogre (talk) 14:11, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Ransack-armada.jpg[edit]

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 01:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Ransack-armada.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

Photograph of a non-free toy. J Milburn (talk) 15:01, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Harry H Gardiner.gif[edit]

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 01:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Harry H Gardiner.gif (delete | talk | history | logs).

Tag is not relevant to PD status in US; image is quite likely not PD. Magog the Ogre (talk) 15:24, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Robert Smith Barry.jpg[edit]

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The result of the discussion was: marked fair use failing evidence to the contrary, we must assume the first publication was in the magazine in 1984. Thus it will not be public domain in the UK until 2055, and in the US until 2080. Magog the Ogre (talk) 19:39, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Robert Smith Barry.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

Clearly not taken over 100 years ago- discussion about the actual licensing appears to have gotten nowhere. J Milburn (talk) 15:37, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - this picture was taken in 1916, so we can use the {{PD-US-1923-abroad}} tag if we can prove it was published within 6 years (I don't have access to the source, so I can hardly prove this). Anyway, if that doesn't apply, fair use will. Magog the Ogre (talk) 19:28, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Plausibly any one of {{PD-US-1923-abroad}}, {{PD-BritishGov}}, {{PD-EU-no author disclosure}}, or even {{PD-old-70}}. Safest to go with Crown Copyright I think: "made by ... an officer or servant of the Crown in the course of his duties". Angus McLellan (Talk) 11:33, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Do you have any evidence of that? J Milburn (talk) 15:18, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

{{PD-BritishGov}}? The Crown doesn't keep a list of works it once claimed copyright in, but this is a picture of two RFC officers, in uniform, apparently on a military base. If this was taken by another member of the armed forces, it was Crown Copyright. It's hardly a family snap so this seems likeliest.

No where dose this page say that this was taken by a RFC member, so a Crown copyright isn't certain. What if that was taken by a family member of one of the two? Since the Author is unknown, you can' make that claim.--ARTEST4ECHO ^talk 15:18, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

{{PD-EU-no author disclosure}}? No author known, 70 years have passed. And yes, I undertook some diligence here. I even found where there is an portrait painted by an artist who died in 1927, not that that is free of course.

In the US if No author known then the rule is Older the 120 years and never published prior to January 1, 2003, both of which is not shown here.--ARTEST4ECHO ^talk 15:18, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

{{PD-US-1923-abroad}}? If it was taken by a professional photographer, which is to say not a member of the forces but some bloke who came in from Portsmouth, he owned the copyright and published it when he took money for the print seen here. I assume that we can stipulate that the typical English provincial photographer neither registered nor renewed copyrights in the USA. Few enough people did it in the US.

This tag says that "Furthermore, as Wikipedia is hosted in the USA, this tag alone is not sufficient copyright tagging. A second tag must be supplied to indicate why the image is in the public domain in the USA as well." So you have to show that it was published in the US prior to 1923.--ARTEST4ECHO ^talk 15:18, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You need to be a bit more specific as to what your problem is here. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:54, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

note Has been changed to "Fair-use" rational.--ARTEST4ECHO ^talk 19:21, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If this image was published before 1923, it is public domain in the United States per {{PD-US-1923-abroad}}). If it was published before 1926 AND a) it was anonymous or b) the author died before that date, it is public domain in the US per {{PD-US-1996}}. If it was published at a later date, the PD date in the US and abroad depends on the publication date. If it never was published, it is not public domain in the US until 2037. Magog the Ogre (talk) 19:32, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. - I now see it was published at latest in 1984 according to the file listing. I'm thinking it's probably {{Anonymous-EU}} and {{PD-US-1996}}. Magog the Ogre (talk) 20:12, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Windrazor-g2.jpg[edit]

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The result of the discussion was: deleted per Commons:Commons:Fanart. Magog the Ogre (talk) 19:32, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Windrazor-g2.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

Photograph of a non-free toy. J Milburn (talk) 16:14, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Windrazor-energon.jpg[edit]

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The result of the discussion was: deleted per Commons:Commons:Fanart. Magog the Ogre (talk) 19:30, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Windrazor-energon.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

Photograph of a non-free toy. J Milburn (talk) 16:14, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Manterror-toy.jpg[edit]

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The result of the discussion was: deleted per Commons:Commons:Fanart. Magog the Ogre (talk) 19:31, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Manterror-toy.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

Photograph of a non-free toy. J Milburn (talk) 23:13, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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