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June 30, 2006

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Template:Elk River (British Columbia)/meta/drainsinto

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Pagrashtak 01:51, 13 July 2006 (UTC) Template:Elk River (British Columbia)/meta/drainsinto (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)[reply]
Not used in any articles. Contains two links one of which is broken. Seems rather pointless. Delete. – Gurch 18:30, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

Template:Credit Card Cashback

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The result of the debate was delete. Pagrashtak 01:52, 13 July 2006 (UTC) Template:Credit Card Cashback (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)[reply]
Not used, unencyclopedic template. Delete Ardenn 18:08, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was no consensus Will (message me!) 14:52, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Argentina Squad 1990 World Cup

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Template:Argentina Squad 1990 World Cup (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)


Template:Italy Squad 1990 World Cup

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Template:Italy Squad 1990 World Cup (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Template:West Germany Squad 1990 World Cup

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Template:West Germany Squad 1990 World Cup (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Template:Argentina Squad 1994 World Cup

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Template:Argentina Squad 1994 World Cup (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Template:Italy Squad 1994 World Cup

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Template:Italy Squad 1994 World Cup (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Template:Argentina Squad 1998 World Cup

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Template:Argentina Squad 1998 World Cup (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Template:Argentina Squad 2002 World Cup

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Template:Argentina Squad 2002 World Cup (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
These templates were created to emulate the 2006 World Cup templates, which creators intended to be deleted after the World Cup. Only a template for the current (2006) World Cup should exist, for navigating topical player pages. Keeping squad templates for old World Cups can clutter up player pages (some players have appeared in five World Cups.) If 1990 World Cup squad information is required, it can be found at 1990 FIFA World Cup (squads) etc.  SLUMGUM  yap  stalk  13:55, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete all as per comment above. Yonatanh 01:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'Comment There is Template:Netherlands 2006 u21 squad already. Keeping winning squad is ok i think. Matt86hk talk 04:38, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'Comment It's totally different things. "U-21 Euro" is just one of many youth tournaments, while World Cup is a greatest sports event in the World. Every WC appearance is a landmark in a career of every player that may changes it greatly and i think it should be noted visually with templates. --Repli cant 08:55, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - I agree the WC is a major achievement to any player, however, inserting massive templates with the entire squad in the player's page is not a good solution. Something like the medal table for olympic athletes informing that the player was present in the competition and what results his team achieved would be good. Such templates could be expanded to include other major competitions, like the european championship ot copa america. Afonso Silva 13:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep all - Gives great perspective and insight for the international career of the specific player (teammates and national squad) Dr. Manos 23:52, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

Template:Belgrade neighborhoods and suburbs (urban)

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The result of the debate was speedily deleted by User:Wiki_alf under CSD G7. Pagrashtak 23:27, 15 July 2006 (UTC) Template:Belgrade neighborhoods and suburbs (urban) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)[reply]
Delete. I created this template, but now think it is a bad idea as it is too large. Rather, I think that multiple templates should be created, corresponding to each municipality of Belgrade, and having each suburb listed in its respective template (to avoid over-crowding). — Incisive Thought 05:34, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. User:Angr 10:03, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Hoaxer

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Template:Hoaxer (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
This template is intended to be placed on the page of a user with "a history of intentionally inserting hoax information." This is inappropriate for anonymous IPs, as they often are shared among multiple individuals. Meanwhile, an account registered for the purpose of committing hoax vandalism (or any other type of vandalism) should be blocked indefinitely (rendering the template pointless). Furthermore, no policy permits anyone to "readily delete" (which seems to imply speedy deletion) such a user's contributions, even if a hoax is suspected. Delete. —David Levy 04:39, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I think that the "readily delete" buissiness means something along the lines of "don't feel bad if you have to delete a ton of this users contributions because they're all false". Anyway I've removed that now and rephrased. 68.39.174.238 06:53, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There are anonymous IPs that are attached to one user. It's obvious when there is only bad behavior. If it is used to target those people then it is appropriate because the template is a response to an individual. And don't forget just how bad hoax vandals are. Do you realize this is the most imperceptible variety of vandalism? If not branded then these vandals will continue unchallenged for months. This template needs to exist. lots of issues | leave me a message 19:29, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

An IP addresses can belong to the same person for weeks, months, or even years before it's suddenly reassigned. (Mine changed after two years of remaining the same.) And no, a history of nothing but vandalism does not rule out the possibility that an IP address is shared by multiple individuals (only one of whom had edited this site anonymously).
Regardless, if we are able to somehow verify that an IP address is used strictly for vandalism, it can be blocked indefinitely. Under no circumstance is it appropriate to "brand" an account or IP address in this manner and wait to the user(s) to strike again. —David Levy 19:58, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I suspect if they contributed legitimately but occasionally went and added nonsense, it might be usefull to say as much. Out and out hoax vandals who have no legit contributions can be blocked, as has always been the case. Also, as can be seen on one of its current uses, it can be used when a persistent hoaxer persistently uses a shared IP, i.e. his school, and so can't be blocked indefinately. 68.39.174.238 21:00, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If someone contributes legitimately but occasionally adds nonsense, the standard warning messages are sufficient. (And if this is done anonymously, it probably is more than one person.) It's patently inappropriate to apply such a tag to a shared IP address, as this defames legitimate users. We have a suitable tag for such situations: {{sharedip}}. —David Levy 21:07, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • UPDATE This template has been edited since it was nominated for deletion. The most controversial language ("readily delete") is now removed. As a result, I vote keep.--M@rēino 19:47, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • The edit to the language was noted above. This, however, was not my primary concern. (Otherwise, I would have simply fixed it myself.) The problem is that this template serves no valid purpose (IMO), and it's been used primarily to "brand" IP addresses that easily could belong to legitimate editors (including at least one school IP). —David Levy 20:26, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - pointless; any hoaxer will just remove it.--Brownlee 12:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete — per Brownlee. Might be useful it it were locked in place, but this appears to be a waste of energy. Williamborg 20:17, 23 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

Template:Title

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The result of the debate was Userfy. SushiGeek 15:13, 7 July 2006 (UTC) Template:Title (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)[reply]
This template was a attempt to work around various title limitations. However, it's never worked correctly nor reliably; in particular, it only displays correctly with the standard skin, with the quickbar on the right, and even then only with some web browsers. Furthermore, even though it's been deprecated (and clearly states so on both the template and the talk pages!) users have persisted in attempting to insert it on certain pages - iPod, iMac, etc. As it's never worked properly, and is inadvertently causing disruption to Wikipedia, I'd like to see this template gone. Consider it a failed experiment. Zetawoof(ζ) 04:37, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete. Does much harm and no good. If it becomes possible at a later date due to changes in MediaWiki, recreate it then. -- Steven Fisher 05:23, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. A noble attempt, but more harm than good. Coffee 17:09, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - agree with above.--Aldux 17:33, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - it is sometimes used on user pages. Anyway, most readers are unlikely to use nonstandard skins. Also, if it is deleted, people could just put the code in instead (and it was already substituted in the sandbox, so the code is there). Polonium 18:11, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - It's broken. If users want it on their userpages, let them substitute it. And Polonium, the assertion that nobody uses "nonstandard" skins is false. First of all, there's no "standard" skin, there's simply Monobook, which is the default skin. I happen to know a fair number of people who prefer Cologne Blue. --Cyde↔Weys 19:17, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - It's not just nonstandard skins that break this template. It's any form of browser or preferences customization. Even changing the browser font size is sometimes enough to screw it up. Zetawoof(ζ) 19:54, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect to Template:Wrongtitle. It's parameters exactly match, and should be used instead of this CSS overlay hack. Invitatious 23:29, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Rebecca 00:21, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Ugh. Other than {{featured article}} and its friends, are there any templates where absolute positioning is not going to cause problems? Perhaps we need a policy, if there is not one already? -- ALoan (Talk) 23:26, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete A nuisance-Brownlee 12:43, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, never worked well to begin with, and all the transclusions of it are from user pages. Titoxd(?!?) 21:02, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. It is pretty harmless IMHO. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 21:19, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Update Using the logic from the FA star, and eschewing absolute position where possible, I've made a resonably portable version of this (at User:ais523/Sandbox/Title; it always displays {{wrongtitle}}, and changes the title displayed in monobook (in other skins, it has exactly the same effect as {{wrongtitle}}. Hopefully this will sort out the portability criticisms. --ais523 07:47, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
    • That does not seem to work in the classic skin. (I see large ugly letters in the top section of the template page - does that disappear on implementation?). -- ALoan (Talk) 10:52, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • That's because the FA star is broken in the classic skin as well. I'll put an {{editprotected}} there now to make my concerns known. However, a more serious problem is that it breaks the TOC and section-edit links, so I've had to disable them. This means that the template probably shouldn't be used on articles (unless someone can find a solution to that). --ais523 11:29, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
        • That might be a bit unclear, so I'll clarify: My version acts as {{title}} in Monobook, {{wrongtitle}} in all skins (this can be turned off by parameter), and breaks in Classic. The reason it breaks in Classic is that it uses the same logic as the Featured Article star, which also breaks in Classic. I've put in a request to edit the Classic skin to hide the FA star and the title-change, which is the solution used by other skins. --ais523 11:56, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Change to my version. --ais523 07:47, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment For GFDL reasons, if the verdict is to delete, history-merge to my version (which was copy-and-pasted because there isn't a 'page copy' function, only 'page move'), or at least save the history somewhere. --ais523 11:12, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, used on user pages including mine. SushiGeek 14:33, 7 July 2006 (UTC) MarkGallagher has moved the template to a subpage of my user page, partly per my request. I think this solves our problem, and users like me who use the title template have a compromise now. Delete. SushiGeek 14:53, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The userfication combined with my improval attempts have left a huge mess. If this debate is closed as userfy (which seems to have happened) it can be sorted out, and maybe relisted on MfD or DRV once the mess is sorted. (At the time of writing, {{title}} is a redirect to userspace.) --ais523 15:09, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

Template:POV-because

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the discussion was to delete the template. Looking at the full discussion, the potential usefulness of this template does not outweigh its potential abuse, its inherent POV, nor the innapropriate meta-commentary-in-article space aspect. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 00:22, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:POV-because (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
During the recent TfD voting on {{POV-tag}} many people have argued that this template is also a great tool for escalation of conflicts rather than solving them. As someone put it, the place for commentary on articles is on the talk page, not at the top of the article. Let's use Ockham's Razor and cut this one, it's fully replaceable with the standard {{NPOV}}. //Halibutt 01:29, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep pending actual evidence. This has existed for 11 months and been used on hundreds of articles since then. Many of the examples where it is presently used appear to be legitimately informative to the reader, which in my mind makes it useful. As important, I am unaware of any significant disputes being waged over the message itself. If there are examples, please show them, but I'm not in favor of deleting a year old template without actual evidence of it causing harm. Dragons flight 02:09, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay, so the Russian architecture mentioned in the other TFD counts as one, any others? Dragons flight 02:21, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per above. Freddie Message? 02:18, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete. The tag allows the trolls to target any article and to append their personal POV opinion at the top of the page. Whatever nonsense is given as a reason for the POV tag, it is kept in articles for months, because removing the tags placed by others are not allowed. Such was the case of Russian architecture, in which one troll (now blocked) has kept a silly tag for half a year, although dozens wikipedians wasted hours of their time trying to talk him into removing the tag. Now check the history of that article to see the amount of revert warring this silly tag led to. Keeping the tag as it is is what the trolls need. Please don't feed the trolls. Discussion of the POV should be held on talk pages, no need to place arbitrary advertisements of one's opinion in main space. --Ghirla -трёп- 06:40, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Russian architecture has been marked with some form of POV tag for 7 of the not quite 10 months it has existed. I don't know what is going on with this dispute, but I'd say all of you have much larger problems than dealing with a tag that has worked well elsewhere. Deleting POV templates should not been seen as a substitute for learning how to more efficiently resolve disputes. Dragons flight 07:03, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete. Ghirla is right: kill this with fire. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:43, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Since Ghirla's specific example is coming under attack, I'd like to emphasize my specific feelings; I feel that a template that caries out the discussion/argument/dispute on the article page itself is a Really Awful Idea. I don't actually have any feelings on the Russian architecture case. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:42, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Dragons flight. We need actual evidence, not speculation, that it causes more than a tiny number of cases of disruption. So far we have only one case of disruptive use. That doesn't warrant deleting this very useful tag. --Cultural Freedom talk 2006-06-30 07:18 (UTC)
    • I agree with A Man In Bl♟ck that we don't want a debate per se taking place at the top of a page, but I've not yet seen that happen (aside from on the Russian architecture page). The standard warning just isn't enough in most cases. Wikipedia is slowly starting to make readers more critical, which is part of what I love about it. But it has a long, long way to go. A generic warning that tells people to go to the Talk Page for details means little to most readers. "Yeah, well, of course some people think this might not be neutral! Whatever." The ability to place a concise summary of why the article is thought to be POV seems like a vital tool for us. When we see evidence of more than sporadic abuse, we can nix it. --Cultural Freedom talk 2006-06-30 07:51 (UTC)
      • "Concise summary". But that is the whole point: when is it a summary and when is it the discussion point iself. You do not want the tag itself to be POV, do you? IF you do not mind THAT, well then, you won't mind someone tagging the tag iself, RIGHT? --Pan Gerwazy 10:16, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral. However, by way of evidence, it has been used repeatedly over the last few days on Capitalism with various degrees of rantishness in the "because". That said, I can also imagine it being used properly to focus attention on the specific issue of concern, rather than as a generic "I don't like this article" that plain {NPOV} sometimes is. LotLE×talk 08:43, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Ghirla. --Tēlex 08:49, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep for its usefulness to readers. As Cultural Freedom says, generic warning isn’t very informative. -- Vision Thing -- 08:56, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete Please don't disrupt Wikipedia to make a point. 172 | Talk 09:21, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
172- Could you please explain the connection between your citing of the "Don't disrupt..." principle and the matter of the {{POV-because}} tag? Thanks, --Cultural Freedom talk 2006-06-30 09:52 (UTC)
Though in Russian Architecture, someone did indeed make a point and did indeed disrupt Wikipedia (the article was actually going to be nominated), I think 172's argument is really an argument in favour of the tag, because the phrase " don't disrupt ... " should encourage those that put up the tag to weigh their words carefully, so that the text put there is not horribly POV itself. However, so many people have spent so much time trying to deal with that, that I think the potential for disruption is indeeed far too great, and supersedes the benefit in other articles. I see some supporters of this tag want to have the other one deleted. I am sorry, but that is not definitely not the way to go. Either keep them both or delete them both.--Pan Gerwazy 10:16, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Re: I think 172's argument is really an argument in favour of the tag, because the phrase " don't disrupt ... " should encourage those that put up the tag to weigh their words carefully, so that the text put there is not horribly POV itself. If that's your reasoning, I can tell that you have not been editing Wikipedia too long! That's not how things usually work on Wikipedia. What will happen is that the very same users who cannot agree on the neutality of the article will disagree on the claim 'the neutality of article X is disputed because y' and start quarreling over the language in the "POV-because" tag itself. The "POV-because" tag opens up a new arena for conflict, and will make resolving disputes even more difficult. Hence my chracterization of the tags as 'disruptive.' 172 | Talk 23:42, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You are right of course. What really happens is different from what should happen. Actually, I may be unexperienced but I found out myself in that particular case. That is why I said that the potential for disruption is too great in comparison to the benefit obtained in articles where people keep to your "Don't disrupt" rule.--Pan Gerwazy 20:10, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion should be undertaken on talk pages, which a tag directs to in a standardized format. Tags should not be used as a form of discussion, only to highlight such a discussion (i.e. type of discussion it is: pov, refs, original research, etc.). El_C 00:32, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Folks, please think carefully about this. Most people who read Wikipedia know nothing about the talk pages (even if there are obvious links to them). They are not Wikipedians. The little warning at the top probably means nothing to many readers. And most readers don't have time to look at the Talk Page. With a sentence or two (compromise: limit number of words in warning?), the chance that a reader will come away from their reading of the page with a NPOV-based understanding of the topic covered increases. Isn't that good? As for potential for disruption: why do we need to make guesses about potential? We can just wait for hard data. --Cultural Freedom talk 2006-06-30 12:42 (UTC)
Changed to delete. Can cause edit wars, puts POV into article, discussion should be on talk page. Polonium 18:51, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I didnt mean to be a sockpuppet. (great name :-) though I'm not sure what it is.) I came here because of a real life discussion with someone who is passionate about Wiki and it seemed important so I voted. but I admit I dont know what I'm talking about, so cancelling my vote is ok by me. --Justice 7 12:02, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment:User still has only one edit NOT connected to this TfD. As far as I can judge, of course, since most of it is not in English. Vote should not count. --Pan Gerwazy 20:03, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Conditional Keep/Delete unless there can be a full rationale on how these tags are used. IMO only the admin should have the right to insert an NPOV tag. However what happened with Russian Architecture or Battle of the Lower Dnieper is exactly why the tags is questionable. Does a previously Arbcom banned user have the right to make 40 reinsertions of the tag when everybody in unison is telling him that his POV-pushing is not going to shift the neutraliry of an article?. In such a case it is extreamely disruptive and pure annoyance. --Kuban Cossack 23:28, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • If an article contains a dispute tag, it means that the editors cannot agree on the neturality of the article. If they cannot reach a consensus, how are they supposed to agree on why the article is unbalanced? In other words, users will inevitably disagree on a claim embedded in a dispute tag stating 'the neutrality article X is disputed because of y.' As soon as these "POV-because" tags start appearing in articles, just about anyone who has been editing Wikipedia for (say) a tenth of the time I've been on this site knows we'll start seeing frequent edit was over the language inside the tag itself. Again, this is very misguided. If editors are really interested in establishing a consensus, their efforts will be undercut by the opening up of yet another arena for conflict with these "POV-because" tags. Hence my claim that these tags constitute disruption Wikipedia to make a point. 172 | Talk 23:36, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I still don't get it. 1) Why do we need to speculate when we can wait a bit more for empirical evidence? (Indeed, the evidence so far is that there won't be serious problems at all.) 2) Editors don't need to agree on why the article is POV, they need merely to agree that at least some non-crazy people think that it's POV. That will be the cause of battles, and this tag won't change that cause, since it already exists, and already exists in the same place it will exist with this tag: on the Talk Page.
POV-ness is almost always a binary matter. An article is alleged to have bias A, someone believing not-A will then put up the tag, and give some details (I'd be happy saying it should be X words or less, where X is, say, 25) about not-A. People with (alleged) bias A don't need to agree with the wording, because the point of the wording is not to be non-neutral, it's to express not-A. Oui? What's the problem? We need this tag. I honestly believe it's irresponsible not to have it. Most readers (who are not Wikipedians) don't click on a little "neutrality has been disputed" tag, esp. since there are so many of these tags!
Take an empirical case: my use of this tag at Human rights in the United Kingdom. I think it's been extremely useful. A discussion about how to rectify the problem has commenced, and students of mine who are writing papers about how lily white the history of the UK is (especially compared to the Great Satan) will be more likely to learn something about the world with a tag like this. (Screaming "Read the Talk Pages at WP!!" doesn't work.) Isn't that good?
In the spirit of compromise, I'd be happy to change my vote here to weak keep (and maybe even neutral or delete) if there were a way for someone, with one click, to get to the beginning of the discussion of the POVness -- this means, among other things, no archiving of the discussion, unless the link to the discussion also changes (if the tag is still up), and no "top-posting". But I still think keeping this tag is a good idea. --Cultural Freedom talk 2006-07-01 16:04 (UTC)
I think you mean well, but I still have little doubt that your comments are quite misguided. You've started work on Wikipedia little over three weeks ago. [3] I started work on Wikipedia more than 3 and a half years ago. I don't need to wait for "empirical evidence"; I'm already certain about what will happen. Already on the capitalism article, a user inserted a dubious "POV because" tag citing "Undue weight to Marxist POV." [4] Another editor, a PhD political theorist, described the characterization in the "POV because" tag as "more-or-less insane," as the article contained no "Marxist" commentary but only a brief section describing awarness of Marx's work. If the "POV because" template is kept, I guarantee you copy-cat users with the aim of disrupting Wikipedia will start using these tags as their personal soapboxes in short time. 172 | Talk 16:31, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete the tag allows one party to put a dubious statement in a prominent position without the other party having a chance to respond. It is very easy to abuse and seems to be already abused. The rationale for having this tag is that the exact reason for the editorial argument might not be easy to find on a very long talk page. I propose to have an additional named parameter because to the standard POV template that will show the exact section of the talk there the issue is discussed. That way it would be easy to translate the POVbecause tag into the standard POV without loss of content abakharev 23:51, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Good post. Re: I propose to have an additional named parameter because to the standard POV template that will show the exact section of the talk there the issue is discussed. FYI we already have POV-section tags, if that's what you mean. 172 | Talk 23:54, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, unnecessary fork of {{POV}}. User:Angr 11:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I listed this here, but didn't want to vote initially. However, the comments by 172 and Yozhik made me make my mind. //Halibutt 15:37, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete In a POV dispute, the "because" part is what is in dispute. It is unfair to put one side of the dispute on the article tag. That makes the NPOV tag POV. Kevin Baastalk 16:22, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's the article and the tag that are in dispute. Article gets one side, tag gets (a really, really short version of) the other side, thereby achieving a good balance for those (many, many, many) readers who will never click on the link to the discussion about POVness. We're trying to educate people, right? --Cultural Freedom talk 2006-07-01 16:24 (UTC)
Re: Article gets one side, tag gets (a really, really short version of) the other side I recommend that you gain more than 3 weeks of experience editing Wikipedia before you weigh into similar template deletion debates. Often neutrality disputes are completely dubious. Often committed partisans succeed in pushing an article mildly toward their POV, but insert on flagging the article as POV under the article has been virulently pushed toward their POV. I hate to break it to you-- not every user who inserts these tags is reasonable. 172 | Talk 16:37, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
For the record, I participated in WP in the past under a different name, but only a bit -- so, yes, I'm much less experienced here than you are. I'll be quiet on this matter, and let others weigh in. I really am troubled, though, by how my students are using Wikipedia (these are college students at an excellent university...). This tag just seemed like a good way to get them to wake up; the non-because version wasn't working). Best, Cultural Freedom talk 2006-07-01 16:46 (UTC)
The existing "POV," "totally disputed," "cleanup," "unbalanced," etc. tags already should be sufficient to wake them up. My fear, as mentioned, is disruptive editors will insert mischaracterizations in the "POV because" boxes, thus adding an unnecessary new layer of dubiousness to articles... Your comment on college students is interesting. Though not related to the discussion here, I cannot resist commenting on it. I left Wikipedia in mid-2005. The main factor that led me to return was the discovery that my students had been using Wikipedia. By coincidence, I saw a MS Word document on the desktop of a computer at a university computer lab with a title suggesting it was a student-made study guide for one of my quizzes. I opened it up, and indeed it was. It was not based on lecture notes, but (bad) Wikipedia entries. Since then, I came back to Wikipedia, aiming to rewrite the problem entries on Wikipedia that appeared on that study guide little by little. 172 | Talk 17:06, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Your response -- coming back to WP, in order to rewrite problem entries -- is a good one. My response is: I, too, shall come back to WP in order to try to fix some of these grossly inaccurate entries, yet I also want a way to make sure stronger warnings are issued, for the very reason that work on shaky articles can only take place "little by little." The POV-because tag might not be the best solution, but, please, can we ensure that there is a way for someone to click on a warning and go directly to the discussion about the potential POV-ness of the article (that is, not have to sift through various other threads in the Talk page)? --Cultural Freedom talk 2006-07-02 09:50 (UTC)
  • Keep per Dragons flight. --TonyM ｷﾀ━( °∀° )━ｯ!! 16:58, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Dragons flight was incorrect in asserting that there have been no examples of disruption attributed to this template. Capitalism is a prime example. Yes, the tag has not been disruptive in some cases. But in those cases, the tag did not contain a contested characterization of the POV itself but was used to direct users to a particular part of the article. But that's unnecessary; we already have POV-section tags for that purpose. [5] The new "POV-because" tag contributes nothing, while creating new opportunities for problem editors to cause disruption. 172 | Talk 17:11, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete. Will cause endless disruption. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:48, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete the charge of POV is often used erroneously in order to, well, defend a POV. Debate belongs on the talk page, not in article tags. Homey 17:50, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - will clearly improve WP's image, and save countless debates, to simply link to Talk page. Crum375 17:56, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. This is much more useful than the generic POV message. If someone puts a opinionated because argument, the solution is to put up a neutral one in its place. I also agree with DragonsFlight.--M@rēino 19:49, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Re:If someone puts a opinionated because argument, the solution is to put up a neutral one in its place. Then the person who inserted the "opinionated because argument" will revert back to his/her language ad nauseum. Thus, we have yet another arena for edit warring. Ironically, the keep vote above alludes to the reason this tag is so disruptive. 172 | Talk 21:16, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Many people do not read the talk pages and it may be difficult to find what the dispute is about. This template gives the reader more information quickly about what the dispute is about.Ultramarine 21:36, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Any talk belongs to talk pages. The template is inherently wrong: it gives an undue preference to someone's opinion (we don't want it to be ugly long to accomodate an opposing opinion, do we?). If someone thinks POV disputes are not visible in talk pages, let them use bright colors and big letters for prominent header notices there, like al these peacock signatures. `'mikka (t) 22:58, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral. Logic and ethics tell me "delete per Halibutt", but the outrageous practice says: "what the hell, let's use every tool against Russian propagocensorers".AlexPU 23:02, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Disgusting personal attack in the vote page. Look like the user wants a longer block time to learn how to watch his tongue. An ironical thing is that it was a Russian admin who unblocked him ahead or time. `'mikka (t) 23:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Hey, I was talking of censorhsip just minute ago! And here's Mikkalai, the guy who tried to prevent me from adding info on Stalin's crimes to NKVD. One more such comment, or one more threat, and I'll change myself to "Keep".AlexPU 23:16, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Please cool off, AlexPU. This page has nothing to do with your disputes with particular editors of particular nationalities. The template has nothing to do with Russia-related articles per se. 172 | Talk 23:20, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Encourages insertion of editorialization in article space, which is bad. Editorialization belongs on the talk page. Kelly Martin (talk) 23:07, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as per Kelly. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 23:19, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. We use Template:Spoiler to warn our readers not to read further. We have to user Template:POV-because to warn our readers better not to start reading at all, because worthless, self-promotional rubbish has become undeletable on en.wikipedia. See e.g. Florentin Smarandache and Tom Van Flandern. --Pjacobi 23:39, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Rebecca 00:20, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete twice. People will be revert warring over the insertion of editorial POV contents to the tag itself, in the article space. Totally absurd. El_C 00:27, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reluctant delete - It is beneficial to have an explanation for what the problem is with an article. This particular template, however, leaves too much scope to allow the debate spill over onto the article page rather than where it should be, on the talk page. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 02:57, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Delete-because the article isn't the place to discuss disputed content, and the template is redundant to {{POV}}. It was actually created and discussed on thePOV template's talk page. The issue regarding long talk pages is already catered for in the POV template's optional field:

To specify the section of the talk page, use {{POV|talk page section name}} at the top of the disputed article.

TheJC TalkContributions 09:20, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Strong keep because when nonneutral bias is alleged, readers ought to be able to read a summary before they start in on the article, as most will probably not bother with the discussion page and thus might not ever know in which direction the bias is alleged. This makes it more fair to the readers. LossIsNotMore 19:02, 7 July 2006 (UTC) User's first edit on 5 July. [7] 172 | Talk 19:39, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Most of this user's later contributions are on Battery electric vehicle. He does seem to have become a regular contributor, so if brand new users are allowed to vote on this TfD, I would now be in favour of counting this vote. Does NOT apply to the next case, by the way.--Pan Gerwazy 19:57, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete. Presenting a one-sided criticism of an article, as this template encourages, is even worse than a biased or one-sided article. Informing readers that there is a dispute is the right thing, criticizing the text is a bad idea. Mangojuicetalk 20:10, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The "because" statement belongs on Talk pages, not on the article itself. Plus the tag essentially allows trolls to stick their own POVs on top of the article itself. --- Hong Qi Gong 22:41, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - disruptive, not needed. Tom Harrison Talk 12:49, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep While there may be problems with trolls using this to escalate conflicts, most editors discussing this to not appear to be aware of its important use in pseudoscientific and nonsensical articles. In these cases, editors from WikiProject Pseudoscience and elsewhere need a way to show normal readers, who will not check the talk page, that the information contained in the article does not follow NPOV and is highly disputed. It is often added while an article is undergoing an AfD, or some other action is being taken to remove the offending material. It is extremely important that readers to not consider these articles as being illustrative of Wikipedia's NPOV policy. --Philosophus T 17:56, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • The tag does not serve any new function. We already have tags illustrative of content problems without the potential for abuse of the POV-because template. In addition to the standard NPOV tag, we also have the following: "totally disputed" (factual accuracy and neutrality), original research, verification, NPOV-section, 'this article does not cite its sources,' and 'cleanup.' 172 | Talk 05:26, 14 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Even if the neutrality dispute wasn't an issue, this tag is redundant. The rationale for POV ought to be placed on the talk page, using the old template. The fact that many people are disputing this template's neutrality in itself using perfectly rational arguments, is yet another reason to remove it. Joffeloff 11:11, 14 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - A proper summary of the arguments can't hurt, and if someone tries polluting an article with this template, it can be removed and explained on the talk page. Why make people click through and read a flamewar on neutrality when it can be summarized in one place for those people who are looking for an overview or for information quickly? Sachmet 15:54, 14 July 2006 (UTC) Possible sockpuppet, user has well under 50 edits. [8] 172 | Talk 08:01, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment And until now, it was his last edit. Clear case.--Pan Gerwazy 19:57, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Could you point me to the appropriate WP policy/guideline page that says that it's acceptable (or perhaps mandated!) that a user account with fewer than X votes (whatever X be) can be accused of possibly being a sockpuppet account, when the account is used for voting, and its vote deleted? I'm not trying to be difficult! I honestly want to know more about why Wikipedia would have a policy that would disallow new users from voting on matters like this. Thanks. --Cultural Freedom "talk" 2006-07-15 08:17 (UTC)
If there is not a specific policy, it ought to be called 'use common sense.' It would be highly unlikely that someone who had really made less than 50 edits, or who had just started to edit a day or two ago, would be familiar enough with the organization of this website to find his/her way to a TfD debate. 172 | Talk 21:01, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Don't get me wrong! I'm not saying I disagree with your surmise that this very likely is a sockpuppet. I'm saying, rather: you don't know it's a sockpuppet, yet you're erasing the person's vote nonetheless. Seems not a Good, in my view, to silence someone on the basis of a suspicon. That it's a very strong suspicion doesn't make it right. That's why I was wondering about policy with regards to this matter. If there were a policy that people can't vote on questions like these unless they've made more than (say) 50 edits, fine. If there is not such a policy, then anyone, even newcomers, should be able to vote. If there's a suspicion that a newcomer is a sockpuppet, it should be investigated. Until a newcomer is proved to be a sockpuppet (and there isn't a >50 edits rule), his/her vote should stand. --Cultural Freedom 2006-07-17 19:11 (UTC)
To Cultural Freedom: it looks like this is a second account of someone who does not want his other name to be associated with these edits. That is not illegal in se, but it does put the status of his vote in great doubt: for all we know, he might have voted already!--Pan Gerwazy 19:28, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, but I know very well how he came here: Wonder_Lake_(CDP),_Illinois. Another prime example of abuse of the template, if I may say so. He's been the only one editing the page since April. The flag is there since May 1st, but though nobody bothers him, he seems unable to correct what he thinks is POV. As for the technical side (should the vote count?) this person is much older than me in Wikipedia but has only 23 edits and nothing on his talk page. Strange. By the way, this discussion is now 39 Kb - some kind of record? --Pan Gerwazy 22:14, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion is long. The template should have been deleted a while ago. No one has bothered to take the time to close the discussion and delete the tag. 172 | Talk 08:17, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Reading the discussion page there, someone with three contributions in Wikipedia, GnomeTempBravo went on to write that this template is used on 50 pages, so he does not know how to interpret the vote. Now that is crazy: are we really to count the guys who put in the tags as well? That would mean they would get 2-3-4-... votes on this AfD.--Pan Gerwazy 19:28, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - useful in identifying main issue - especially where the NPOV dispute is focused - in appropriate use is grounds for blocking the offender not for getting rid of a useful tool. --Trödel 17:36, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Trodel. This template was used very effectively just today in the Martin Luther article.--Mantanmoreland 17:57, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Very effectively indeed: I had to read the entire talk there to find out what it is about. Well, because some of the text is claimed to have been taken verbatim from an encyclopedia that is now in the public doemain, it is claimed they have to re-write a part of it, and that makes Mantanmoreland very happy, because he has been complaining that the text is too reverential to Luther. [9] If you read it, you will understand why he could not put the NPOV flag himself. Evidence that the NPOV flag is disruptive and falls under WP:POINT is both on the talk page of the article and on Trödel. My comment on Martin Luther: a good example where, if POV is involved, the section version of the normal NPOV flag should be used (since only part of the article is claimed to be plagiarism).--Pan Gerwazy 19:28, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Clarification: there was no plagiarism involved. The source template to the encyclopedia have been used on the page for a long time indicating it was a source. An accidental edit removed the source template tag. Accusations of plagiarism were made in violation of WP:CIVIL and WP:GF. The use of the NPOV-because tag only added fuel to the situation, and the person placing the tag has still not explained its use on the talk page, as is expected.Ptmccain 21:27, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Actually it is a very good usage - the results are just not in yet. There is dispute there, obviously it is over POV. I was informed of the dispute on template messages where I have been working on the generic cite templates. Knowing very litte other than basic history about Martin Luther, I thought I could help. I identified a NPOV dispute that was spilling over into notice about an encyclopedia - introduced policy re the sources should go at the end and labeled the NPOV dispute - hopefully that will buy some time to review the discussion, identify if section NPOV notices will wokr, and then try to help mediate it where I can.
      • Perhaps, since you had time already this afternoon to read the discussion, you can remove the {{POV-because}} and insert the proper ones on the disputed sections - as that would have been my next step. --Trödel 21:02, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

DELETEIt is better to use the discussion pages to talk about why the POV tag is use. Troedel put the POV tag on an article for using an encyclopedia recognized as a legitimate source by Wikipedia. That doesn't make any sense. People using POV tags should immediately justify and explain why they are using them, as I've learned. This has not been done at Martin Luther and the use of a POV tag with a built in reason is not helpful. Better simply to discuss it on the talk pages after putting the POV tag up. My vote is for delete.Ptmccain 21:24, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: quite simply, the explanation belongs on the talk page. The "because" item not only gives one party an undue advantage, but in many cases ensures that the discussion will not be relevant. We have had enough cases quoted here where either or both were the case. See Martin Luther. --Pan Gerwazy 14:25, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete the whole point of the POV tag is to reduce POV on pages - the last thing IMHO that a page needs is a self-referential summary of what a dispute is about that is likely to fall into POV problems itself! People should go to the talk page to see the real reasons why it is there. In thoery I see the need for a summary, but again that is the whole point of talk pages. RN 16:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

Template:PokemonHoenn

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Pagrashtak 01:48, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:PokemonHoenn (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
This was used for the old, hand-made Pokémon species infobox. Its functionality has been superceded by Template:Pokémon species, and it is no longer in use in any articles. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:27, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.


Template:Serbia and Montenegro topics

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete Template:Serbia and Montenegro topics (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
This kind of template is used for current countries, and this one doesn't exist anymore. --Joy [shallot] 23:52, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete. Agree with everything above. Most of the articles featured on this template will never expand again, and most of the material will be incorporated into the Serbian and Montenegrin topics templates. Helmandsare 08:36, 1 July 2006 (UTC).[reply]
  • Delete. Agree with nominator and Grandmasterka. A lot of the articles featured on this template will never expand again, and most of the material will be incorporated into the Serbian and Montenegrin topics templates. Crna Gora 20:33, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete from usage but preserve in archives. In years to come historians will want to understand how WP covered constantly evolving topics. This template shows the flexibility of WP, in so far as it shows how we can cover a state and then move on to its break-up replacements. Speaking as a historian, it would be useful to the existence of this template recorded so that future historians will know it existed when writing about us. On my proposal, we now preserve delete debates rather than deleting them, to enable records to exist for the future. Maybe we need a page for categories and templates of since abolished topics or something similar. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 03:05, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    I'd be happy to userfy it for you, along with a list of the contents of Special:Whatlinkshere. Other than that, there's really no way to do what you're proposing be done here. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 10:01, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Then we'll have to find a way to do it. Historians are going to need to access templates like this in the future in describing how WP covered evolving relationships between states and the abolition of states. If we simply bin things without thinking we will be cutting off our own nose to spite our face, because we will be the losers if historians cannot write a history of WP because WP, unthinkingly, has been dumping the information they will need to access. All organisations need to keep archives of old papers and documents for that reason. WP doesn't seem to grasp that fact yet (except for a few occasions, usually pushed heavily by historians here). In the past, some historian admins have had to continually undelete things that were deleted through votes to force proper archival standards and ensure proper records were kept. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 02:03, 3 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, all you'd need to do is search the old versions of articles for use of this template. You could do that with a database dump, I imagine. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:03, 4 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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